Add rendering for leisure=hackerspace

[darkmattercoder]

I just noticed that the standard renderer does not label leisure=hackerspace in the map. The bike map does render the label. Maybe it might nice to have the names of hackerspaces also in the standard map.

[sb12]

Hi, I'm sorry, but in my opinion it is more important to support more shop types than a tag, which is only used 230 times. It might be nice to show it, if we ever decide to render all the clubs and offices on small zoom levels (maybe 19 and lower), but for now I don't think it is necessary. I actually don't like how it is rendered on the cyclemap. It looks like the hackerspace is the most important amenity in the whole neighbourhood, which is usually not the case.

[darkmattercoder]

Understandable. Thanks for the reply.

[Rovastar]

IMHO this is fair to niche to be rendered for the general propose map so unlikely to be rendered.

[dieterdreist]

2014-03-31 15:53 GMT+02:00 Rovastar notifications@github.com:

IMHO this is fair to niche to be rendered for the general propose map so unlikely to be rendered.

IMHO niche is key to OSM --- there are only few of these features in the World? So cluttering won't be a problem. My guess is that a lot of our users are indeed interested in this kind of feature.

[pnorman]

Closing. A dedicated icon is unlikely with the low usage.

[dieterdreist]

2014-06-23 4:41 GMT+02:00 Paul Norman notifications@github.com:

Closing. A dedicated icon is unlikely with the low usage.

is the usage low compared to all features existing of this in the real world, or just low in absolute terms? There will be stuff that is interesting to show and even a landmark, but of which there are few real world instances, still it might merit rendering (not particularly refering to hackerspaces)

[pnorman]

is the usage low compared to all features existing of this in the real world, or just low in absolute terms?

I don't know, I didn't particularly need to consider it for this.

fwiw, I like hackerspaces.

[dieterdreist]

2014-06-23 11:05 GMT+02:00 Paul Norman notifications@github.com:

fwiw, I like hackerspaces.

I was guessing this. I believe that most of us do like them. What I don't understand is why low tag numbers are a 100% reason to exclude something from being rendered (cluttering won't be the point I guess). Maybe this is to keep rule's filesize reasonably small so who forks us has a chance to overlook all of it and restyle / choose what to keep?

[matthijsmelissen]

See also #660.

[dieterdreist]

2014-06-23 13:36 GMT+02:00 math1985 notifications@github.com:

See also #660 https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/660.

thank you for referencing this, although it is not exactly the same issue, as the OP here asked for "labeling" and #660 is about new icons, still there will probably be some overlap in arguments.

[matthijsmelissen]

I think rendering the labels of hackerspaces would not harm. I will therefore reopen this issue. Adding an icon to the hackerspace is perhaps a step too far.

[vincentdephily]

Labels are already rendered it seems: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/62000567 Unless it's only rendered because it's a building ? Otherwise, it seems that this bug is a non-issue.

[matthijsmelissen]

Unless it's only rendered because it's a building

That's the case.

[matkoniecz]

IMHO 268 occurences ( http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=leisure&value=hackerspace ) is far too low to render a special icon.

It would be useful to have example of OSM elements that should display labels (one was mentioned in https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/451#issuecomment-46983120 - but it was filling entire building so name was rendered anyway).

[dieterdreist]

2014-09-29 14:32 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny notifications@github.com:

IMHO 268 occurences ( http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=leisure&value=hackerspace ) is far too low to render a special icon.

I'm not sure if I would base the decision to render a dedicated icon solely on the numbers. There are features in the real world that are significant, often also interesting for a broader audience (not refering to hackerspaces here), but do not exist in large numbers. One example that comes to my mind are monumental, often ancient, obelisks. There are few of them (the large ones are very few), but distributed around the globe and mostly (re-)errected in very prominent positions. Rome has the most original antique ones, but also other major cities like Paris, Washington D.C. or London have some.

[matkoniecz]

The problem is that icon for obelisk will be recognisable, but making icon of hackerspace that would be clearly recognisable would be really hard.

[dieterdreist]

2014-09-29 14:50 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny notifications@github.com:

The problem is that icon for obelisk will be recognisable, but making icon of hackerspace that would be clearly recognisable would be really hard.

+1, this is another issue to which I agree. Also hackerspaces are quite e niche thing, that might interest a lot of osm contributors but most likely not a big part of society. IMHO we should render a name but no icon (at least as long a nobody comes up with a really good (i.e. intuitively comprehensive) icon proposal).

[matkoniecz]

It is neither widely used nor passed through wiki proposal process. I propose to close this ticket.

[xamanu]

I don't think hackerspaces are a niche thing.

making icon of hackerspace that would be clearly recognisable would be really hard.

There is quite a good symbol by Eric Steven Raymond: the glider hacker emblem

Anyway, just made a PR: #3867

[immanuel-h]

Coming back to this topic, I think it would be useful to render leisure=hackerspace in some way. Right now there are ~1.3k such places in OSM, much more than the 200 back in 2014. Also it is questionable to me, that established entities are discriminated against simply because of what they are. leisure=hackerspace is a well-established tag and there are many around.

I understand if making a separate icon for every leisure=... item may not be feasible, but simply not displaying them at all is a very bad decision.

[dieterdreist]

it could use the icon from amenity=social_facility. As they are, this is just an alternative tag somehow, as is highway=cycleway synonymous with highway=path and bicycle=designated

[dreua]

Rendering it with a blue dot like association/offices would be better than hiding it imho. Can we reopen this to reassess the situation? Or would you rather have a new issue?

The wiki lists it as "de facto", used over 1500 times: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=hackerspace?uselang=en

I'm considering to tag it as "office" or something else just to have it on the map, but nobody wants that, right?

Edit: Please also take into consideration, that the audience of those hackerspaces is more likely to use OSM than the general public ;)

[immanuel-h]

Good point actually, there has always been a close connection between the OSM and hacking communities so this decision to not represent that connection seems rather weird.

[imagico]

Reasons for not rendering this other than the low use volume have been provided in #3867. I particular important:

• the tag seems to be deliberately non-generic and culture specific. The wiki text is full of definition by example and weasel words like 'normally', 'typically' and 'often'.
• delineation of the tag is unclear, the tag seems widely used for commercially run places as well as community run places. At the same time it is unclear if something like a community workshop providing classical engineering tools qualifies (and if not: if that is because those are not primarily for recreational use or because they are non-digital).

And keep in mind that our target audience is the potential global map user, we are not a special interest map for groups with strong voices on digital channels.

As i wrote in https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3867#issuecomment-527998308:

In general i think the whole domain (community infrastructure for common use and cooperation) is a worthy field to render in this style - maybe even to the level that we can throw out some less important things for it. But doing so would require there to be well defined tags that are used consistently according to a broadly accepted meaning.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

On 13 Nov 2023, at 10:04, Christoph Hormann @.***> wrote:

the tag seems to be deliberately non-generic and culture specific. The wiki text is full of definition by example and weasel words like 'normally', 'typically' and 'often'.

if you only render things that occur everywhere on the globe it will lead to significant holes. We also have other culture specific tags like Japanese Baths, Churches, tobacco and alcohol shops, wayside crosses and what not. I can see one would prefer a generic tag applicable to “community run places with technology related services” or similar, but ultimately we use the tags that evolve through our community process, so if the process has led to a specific tag it is not the duty of OpenStreetMap carto to push for a different system without any trace so far.

delineation of the tag is unclear, the tag seems widely used for commercially run places as well as community run places

can you provide evidence this is more of a problem here compared to other fields? Some SEO can be expected for any tag, and it’s more than 1,5 years that the wiki clearly states these should be community run places, so maybe just retag those commercial outliers which do not fit?

[imagico]

the tag seems to be deliberately non-generic and culture specific. The wiki text is full of definition by example and weasel words like 'normally', 'typically' and 'often'.

if you only render things that occur everywhere on the globe it will lead to significant holes.

Please don't derail the discussion by making completely unsubstantiated claims about our criteria for rendering and not rendering things. If you disagree with the assertion that the deliberately non-generic and at the same time vague and poorly delineated nature of the tag is causing problems just say so. But stay specific and always assume good faith.

For those unfamiliar with tagging and rendering of the features mentioned:

• a church is a well delineated culture specific feature that we tag consciously with the generic tagging amenity=place_of_worship and that is consistently used in that generic meaning world wide and that we therefore render as such.
• Japanese bath is an umbrella term for several well delineated culture specific features (onsen, sentō, ashiyu) that we tag consciously with the generic tagging amenity=public_bath and that we render based on that.
• a wayside cross is a well delineated culture specific feature that we tag with two largely synonymous deliberately non-generic but together fairly well defined tags (historic=wayside_cross, man_made=cross) which came to be in this form due to the origin of OSM in a christian cultural context) that we render both based on historic tradition (like we do for other legacy synonyms) and where we also render the more generic and not culture specific variant historic=wayside_shrine.
• tobacco shops are a specific but not culture specific (tobacco consumption got fully assimilated into cultures world wide after about 1500) type of shops tagged in the established tradition in OSM to differentiate shops primarily by the products sold (which is evidently very well defined for tobacco). We render this with a not fully generic but fairly universally understandable symbol.

If anyone has insights into changing de facto meaning of leisure=hackerspace such information is always welcome. I noticed for example that use of the tag for Joven Clubs in Cuba has substantially widened (Cuba is now the largest user of the tag outside of Europe and North America). But i am not familiar enough with those to assess if this constitutes a substantial change in de facto meaning of the tag.

Here an incomplete list of other tags partly overlapping in de facto use with leisure=hackerspace:

• club=* (in particular club=computer, club=linux, club=amateur_radio)
• amenity=workshop
• workshop=* (in particular workshop=fablab)
• amenity=internet_cafe
• amenity=social_centre
• amenity=community_centre
• amenity=coworking_space
• office=coworking
• office=it
• repair=assisted_self_service

This is not meant to invite discussion on the meaning of those tags, just as a starting point for analysis or working on discussing and improving tagging elsewhere.

[immanuel-h]

Neither of those tags really are what a hackerspace is tho ...

club=* (in particular club=computer, club=linux, club=amateur_radio)

hackerspaces are not "computer clubs", or "linux clubs" or "amateur radio clubs"

amenity=workshop

that one is somewhat fitting at least, but falls short of other activities

workshop=* (in particular workshop=fablab)

hackerspaces are not fab-labs (i.e. for-profit purely fabrication oriented spaces)

amenity=internet_cafe
amenity=social_centre
amenity=community_centre

Hackerspaces are not in the slightest "internet cafes" or what I would call social/community centers.

amenity=coworking_space
office=coworking
office=it

They also are not (generally profit-oriented) coworking spaces in the classical sense, nor do they solely deal in IT stuff

repair=assisted_self_service

while that is a small part of what a hacker space does, it is by no means defining of such a place.

[imagico]

As i already said: The list of tags is not meant to invite a tagging discussion here.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

On 13 Nov 2023, at 13:16, Christoph Hormann @.***> wrote:

 As i already said: The list of tags is not meant to invite a tagging discussion here

what I understood from your replies was that the current tag is generally not welcome because it is referring to a specific category of places at the first level where you believe it should be set inside a more generic umbrella tag for easier extendibility, and that it is used for different kinds of places in Cuba and possibly elsewhere than what is described in the wiki?

[imagico]

what I understood from your replies [...]

I strongly suggest you stop trying to read into my comments what my views are on how things should be mapped.

At this stage the only meaningful subject of discussion here would be any new information on changes in the use and de facto meaning of the tag that would warrant re-evaluating the possibility to render it in some form. Should the use for places operated for profit have reduced more recently that would indeed be something good to know. At a quick look i cannot see if that is the case.