Render brand if name isn't present on amenity=fuel, shop=supermarket etc

[matkoniecz]

I admit that in this case I am unsure what would this rule or adding name name keys would be preferable, but I am unsure that at least one of these two should be done.

brand tag is in database, so it could be done before 3.0

example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1111319733

migrated from trac https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3471

[matthijsmelissen]

Agree, it would stimulate correct tagging.

[matkoniecz]

Agree, it would stimulate correct tagging.

With displaying brand key or with adding name equal to brand?

[matkoniecz]

https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3042 suggests doing this also with supermarkets (it mentions operator key, but brand is more suitable)

[dieterdreist]

2014-07-03 14:06 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny notifications@github.com:

With displaying brand key or with adding name equal to brand?

+1 for brand. brand should be the name of the brand (e.g. Shell, ESSO, BP, ...) while name should be the name of the individual petrol station (if any), the information a user expects in a map is generally the brand.

Could also be done for supermarkets and car dealers (and probably more, maybe hotels?)

[matkoniecz]

amenity=fuel shop=supermarket shop=car tourism=hotel tourism=motel tourism=hostel

what else?

maybe just allow any shop to use brand tag?

[matthijsmelissen]

Is the proposal to render brand, or a combination? Maybe even brand on low zoom (if name is absent), and something like "name (brand)" on high zoom? Does not seem really satisfactory to me.

[matkoniecz]

The proposal is to render brand tag iff name tag is absent.

[matthijsmelissen]

Hotels might be either best known by the brand name, or by the hotel name, or by the combination. Especially for hotels that are (much) older than the brand they currently belong to, the hotel name is more important. For example in Amsterdam, 'Amstel hotel' is well-known, and most don't know the brand is InterContinental.

[matkoniecz]

In this case only hotel name would be rendered.

[matthijsmelissen]

See also https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2228

[sommerluk]

Rendering “brand” instead of “name” if “name” is absent would be a good idea! I like this.

[sommerluk]

something like "name (brand)"

Just a thought: Sometimes the value of the name tag will duplicate the brand. Imaging a fueling station in Myvillage: brand=Shell, name=Shell station Myvillage. I think this is not seldom in the database (for example for Germany). In this case, rendering “Shell station Myvillage (Shell)” would duplicate the information.

On the other hand, there will be situations (for example a hotel which belongs to a brand but has a name which doensn’t contain the brand) where you have the opposite, and adding “(brand)” would be a gain of information.

But how can we detect automatically when it’s useful to add the brand and when not?

[gravitystorm]

It's reasonably easy to detect if the brand appears within the name. Would that work?

[HolgerJeromin]

I am surprised how clean the brand key is. operator is much more chaotic ("DB Netz" next to "DB Netz AG"). Some pois can be a problem, but they are very rare: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/59971379 http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1709220481

[Rovastar]

I would not consider trying to detect the brand name in the name tag. From what I understand this is a tagging issue. I suspect if we displayed the brand for this as (brand) it would be retagged in time.

Also to expand on this in the future for 3.0 (sometimes called the "distant future") can be extended for operators too for things like stadiums, etc.

[matthijsmelissen]

This also makes sense for amenity=bank, see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/698.

[Skippern]

Yes, it makes sense for amenity=bank, I see a lot of examples where they add operator and name because brand is not rendered on the map. IMO it is more appropriate to tag these locations with brand, and adding the exact same information in operator and name is duplication of information. For a bank the operator is generally the brand, unless it is a multi-national brand (HSBC, where the brand remains HSBC in every country while the operator is operator=HSBC do Brasil)

[kocio-pl]

I am surprised how clean the brand key is. operator is much more chaotic ("DB Netz" next to "DB Netz AG").

Exactly the same here in Poland: ""Euronet" vs "Euronet Sp. z o.o.". Brand is the most visible and important thing for the user/customer (this is the main function of brands) and sometimes brands are being sold to another operator as they are - probably to use well known and trusted label.

[1ec5]

Often in the U.S., a gas station or fast food restaurant may have the city name or location number included in name, the franchisee (only ever visible on a plaque inside the building) in operator, and a much more common-sense name in brand.

The downside to this fallback is that labels become a bit less predictable.

[Skippern]

That is some of my opinion, but I feel the purpose of this map is rather to promote correct tagging than ideal way to display things. I am working with a Brazilian specific rendering style, where we propose to promote brand of certain gas stations, banks, fast food chains etc. i.e. letting HSBC banks be displayed on the map with a HSBC logo instead of a generic bank symbol. That kind of things are for special interest maps, but in your case it would be rather more friendly if the displayed brand=Burger King instead of name=Burger King I-123 Oklahoma City or operator=Burger King fc 123456. I have similar cases with supermarkets, where a local supermarket is brand=Santo Antônio, while it also could be tagged operator=Zchen Hue Supermercados Ltda which wouldn't give users of the map any intelligent clues (Zchen Hue is not a common Brazilian name) though it could also be name=Santo Antônio do Rua Guitilio Vargas where the main entrance, though it have entrance from another road, calling it name=Santo Antônio do Centro will be plain wrong, as there are 2 others in the same suburb. In such cases I tend to fall back on only mapping the brand tag.

[rmikke]

I'm totally for displaying brand=* if name=* is absent. Also, if name=* is absent and both brand=* and operator=* are present, brand=* should have precedence over operator=*

[pnorman]

I've gone back and forth on this, but after much thought, I'm against it. The biggest reason is that it adds a complication to what a mapper may reasonably expect to be simply handled, resulting in non-obvious behavior.

[matthijsmelissen]

+1.

[matkoniecz]

On the other hand - current state encourages misuse of name tag.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

Am 27.07.2015 um 10:26 schrieb Paul Norman notifications@github.com:

I've gone back and forth on this, but after much thought, I'm against it. The biggest reason is that it adds a complication to what a mapper may reasonably expect to be simply handled, resulting in non-obvious behavior.

IMHO this is encouraging the use of the name tag as a label (eg the brand of the petrol company providing the fuel) and push more precise formalizations like the operator and brand tags into a specialist corner.

[kocio-pl]

Given that brand is a popular feature in many shops/amenities, it makes sense to "learn" people that name is not everything. Important part of it should be adding such field in respective presets in iD and JOSM, so the mappers feel that brand/network name is also first class citizen.

[Skippern]

Given that brand is a popular feature in many shops/amenities, it makes sense to "learn" people that name is not everything. Important part of it should be adding such field in respective presets in iD and JOSM, so the mappers feel that brand/network name is also first class citizen.

+1

[rmikke]

@pnorman What do you mean by non-obvious behavior? Presenting brand if no specific name is given seems to be the most obvious behavior. It's nothing by natural to say e.g."turn left by the Shell station"...

[Skippern]

I thought some of the purpose of the default slippy map was to promote correct tagging, and if users is not getting the expected behaviour of brand they will ignore this tag and put that information in operator and/or name. Generally name=Shell is wrong for a gas station, just as name=McDonalds is wrong for a fast-food shop. Users will continue to tag this way as long as they don't get the desired behaviour. I have seen several examples where users obviously didn't get the desired behaviour from brand=<some brand> so they added operator=<some brand> and name=<some brand>, probably to get the brand name rendered next to the icon.

[neiljp]

This is probably something more relevant for a tagging discussion, but I have hardly ever come across 'brand', and 'operator' is rather uncommon too (and I haven't seen a good reason for it to be rendered, certainly not in preference to a name). I can see why name=McDonalds and name=Shell could be wrong in a data sense, ie. they are the 'brand', but I've always considered (and heard said by other mappers) that 'name' is what I see, and that would be McDonalds or Shell. That said, I have seen eg. car rental companies or hotels with a chain name, branch name, and obviously operator could be separate again, so I see the utility of having the data. IMO converting however many chain POIs with name=[chain-name] to brand and putting a 'full' version in name is a lost cause; brand could be used to emphasise that it is the same as the name (ie. a chain), but I would be much more in favour of an additional tag to supplement the 'short' name, such as name:branch or branch_name - which could then be concatenated in different ways (or not) at different zoom levels, such as "name", but as only "[name]" at lower zoom levels.

[rmikke]

Why put some "full name"on McDonald's? If we have brand rendering, then mapper fills the brand and can see on the map. No name is necessary. Also if the name and brand are identical, bot could easily remove the name, thus promoting correct tagging. People learn correct tagging by following examples, as there is no good guide for it...

[Skippern]

I see no reason to give preference to brand over name, but seeing so many cases where mappers add what should clearly be brand as name because it is not rendered, IMO time to render brand, either as 1st fall back before operator, or as a further fall back from operator. The order brand/operator is debatable, and should in my opinion vary between types of objects.

[kocio-pl]

Fuel station preset in JOSM has brand on the top and all the rest (including name) are presented as additional properties, so this is nothing new or strange to rank the brand above everything else. ATM preset even doesn't include name field. Changing fast food and other presets is next logical step.

[pnorman]

This is probably something more relevant for a tagging discussion

Yes. I'd like to remind everyone that this is the OpenStreetMap Carto issue tracker and not a general tag discussion forum. If you want to discuss tagging, editor presets, and other non-stylesheet matters, this is not the appropriate place.

[kocio-pl]

This subject is project-wide and I can happily start the discussion somewhere else and report conclusions here, but I don't know where and what to ask? Should we ask on Tagging if this is legitimate tag? It has proper, clearly defined Wiki page and is widely used (141 110), so no doubt about it.

I guess it's still mostly about our decision and all the discussion just shows some aspects of this tag outside rendering dept as a support for claims that brand tagging should be used. As far as I understand notes about distinguishing brand/name/operator on Wiki it is said that:

• if the name is less known, the brand is more important - so it should have precedence in rendering ("It is of most value where the name of the outlet is less well-known than the brand of goods or services that are sold.")
• if the name is the same as brand, only name should be used - so still the precedence rule works, because in case of missing brand the name will be used, and even if the user gives both tags, there's no problem with rendering, because they are the same by definition ("Where a well-known brand is trading under their own name, then name=* is expected by most data users, and should be used by contributors.")

[Skippern]

@pnorman Yes I know this is OpenStreetMap Carto, and that is exactly why I ask here to have brand rendered. I agree that this is not the place to discuss tagging, but given the current usage, the discussion should not be wether or not brand is a legit tag, but rather if brand should have priority before or after operator. I find it quite strange that the OpenStreetMap Carto team does not want to render brand to help promote an approved and widely used key, while they have done what is in my opinion the mistake of rendering shop=yes. I can very well open this discussion on the tagging list, but feel that given from other documentation and usage data the answer will be clear.

[pnorman]

if the name is the same as brand, only name should be used

Just to note, this is one case when it doesn't matter what is rendered - if they're the same, you can't tell the difference

[kocio-pl]

Sure, it was just re-wording of the Wiki statement - and that was written what should mapper do (not renderer), I just wanted to make it crystal clear what was the intention.

Back to the subject: what do you think now about brand>name rendering priority?

[pnorman]

Back to the subject: what do you think now about brand>name rendering priority?

I think this was answered with https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/698#issuecomment-125123616 https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/698#issuecomment-125125825 when the issue was closed. I can't speak for @math1985, but I didn't expect everyone to agree, and I don't feel that anything new has been presented since then.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

Am 01.08.2015 um 01:01 schrieb Paul Norman notifications@github.com:

think this was answered with #698 (comment) #698 (comment) when the issue was closed. I can't speak for @math1985, but I didn't expect everyone to agree, and I don't feel that anything new has been presented since then.

yes, rarely everyone agrees, but in this particular case nobody seemed to agree with your comment or the decision to close the issue.

[matkoniecz]

nobody

That is untrue, see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/698#issuecomment-125125825

[ghost]

I'm not sure why this issue was closed.

@pnorman Would you please explain your reasons why you oppose it? I don't quite understand this statement:

The biggest reason is that it adds a complication to what a mapper may reasonably expect to be simply handled, resulting in non-obvious behavior.

It seems to me that you're suggesting conflating name=* and brand=* tagging which at times may be the same, but in many situations is not.

I agree with @matkoniecz that the "current state encourages misuse of name tag".

What a mapper may "reasonably expect" is that rendering match adopted standards in practice and in the wiki.

[matkoniecz]

Note that #972 is still open.

[kocio-pl]

@pnorman I think we should not oversimplify things if they're not that simple in reality. Current state encourages tagging for renderer, which would be very unfortunate consequence and I'd like to avoid it.

I have a helper question then: do you think we should never-ever drop name label priority over brand or could you consider some conditions which would justify such a change? Could it be making brand much more prominent than name as with fuel station preset in JOSM (or something like this)?

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

Am 03.08.2015 um 02:10 schrieb kocio-pl notifications@github.com:

I have a helper question then: do you think we should never-ever drop name label priority over brand or could you consider some conditions which would justify such a change? Could it be making brand much more prominent than name as with fuel station preset in JOSM (or something like this)?

for gas stations I would always prefer brand over name for labeling a map, the name is something I d only want to see in search results or similar...

[kocio-pl]

@pnorman I think we still have a problem and I suggested a helper question to look further. Could you respond what do you think about "conditional" rendering brand? I guess editors showing brand field on top of the name (or even with no name field) is a strong case against calling it "non-obvious behavior" - it is obvious to tag the brand then. Or maybe there are some other conditions for you to feel satisfied? Or just you feel using brand field is a broken tagging at all?

The details are important - knowing what is acceptable at least and what is out of any question in such a hard problem is crucial.

[naoliv]

I am seeing a lot of people here in Brazil wrongly including the brand in name (for banks and fuel stations) because the brand isn't rendered. Could we have both brand and name rendered for amenity=fuel and amenity=bank, please?

One quick example: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/bwO (click on Run)

[kocio-pl]

@pnorman Could you reply to my helper questions?

I guess the problem won't go away anytime soon (see also new comments to the still open #1548), so I'd still like to find a compromise solution.

[kocio-pl]

...and we have brand new issue too. I really think it was too soon to close this issue, before we have tried to find the consensus (at least stating the limits of possible agreement).

[nighto]

In my opinion brand should always be rendered in addition to name. Could be either name (brand) or name<br>brand. I prefer the latter. CC #1874