Differentiating sport infrastructure (like pitches) by type of sport

[matthijsmelissen]

Currently all sport fields are shown in the same style. It is very difficult to distinguish the different sports. Furthermore there are good sport icon sets out there: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Sport_icon Comparing the different olympic pictograms http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/24/sports/olympics/pictograms-interactive.html I suggest to take the icon sets of Olympic games 1972 (munich) http://olympic-museum.de/pictograms/Picto1972.htm adopted to the constraints of 16px

See also https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3159.

[Adamant36]

@Hufkratzer, I think we could render a horse racing icon sports centers that have the sport=horse_racing tag. I don't don't recommend it on on tracks though due to the current issues we have with icons positions not rendering well if the area is round etc. Otherwise, it will render it will render in the middle or some other weird spot. If I remember correctly it was an issue on the Maptnik side that was supposedly fixed, but I've still been seeing it around sometimes. Its been a while though.

[Hufkratzer]

I think most tracks (running, athletics, horse_racing, skateboarding, also motorsport tracks (highway=raceway's)) are currently not in sports_centre's, examples https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/192989911 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6154664 If you render icons for leisure=sports_centre instead of leisure=track you will somehow force mappers to map sports_centre's where no sports_centre's are (or to nest sports_centre's) if they want the sport specific icons on the map. Is that desirable?

Also leisure=stadium has no icon; if you render sports_centre with an icon and stadium not, you may encourage mappers to retag stadium's with leisure=sports_centre; is that desirable? Examples: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258815225 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8129847 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146537002.

I can imagine that the placement of an icon may often be more complicated for tracks than for pitches or for sports_centre's, but If it's just a mapnik bug that hinders you to render icons for tracks, it may be better to wait until this bug is fixed, rather than to do it for sports_centre's instead. But when I look at this sports_centre it seems that the placement of icons works quite well: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8695416

[HolgerJeromin]

If I remember correctly it was an issue on the Mapnik side that was supposedly fixed, but I've still been seeing it around sometimes. Its been a while though.

@Adamant36 This was #2457 and is fixed and deployed. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/96821031#map=19/50.76494/6.07436

[Adamant36]

Woho, I finally got the code for sports icons working. So expect some test renderings any day now. This ones been on the top of my list for a while now.

[Adamant36]

Maki versus Tomasz-W icons. If people don't mind I think I'll do a PR for the main sports just to get to it implement and do the rest later. Since there's like 16 of them and it will take a lot more time otherwise.

Maki baseball Tomasz-W baseball Maki basketball Tomasz-W basketball Maki soccer Tomasz-W soccer Maki tennis Tomasz-W tennis Personally, I'm leaning more toward Tomasz-W's icons because they aren't mostly solid black. So they don't stand out as much.

[Tomasz-W]

@Adamant36 In combination with leisure=pitch icons should be man-made-grey (and in combination with leisure=sports_centre leisure-green)

[Adamant36]

@Tomasz-W How come you think they should be man-made-grey for pitches? Last time I checked names on pitches are currently rendered in green. Plus its a leisure tag. Eveeything else leisure is green. Also, I'm not dealing with sports centers at this point. I want to figure out the icons were using and get pitches implimented first.

[Tomasz-W]

@Adamant36 Imagine a big soccer training centre - if we would render both pitches and sports centres icons in leisure green, there will be just a chaotic bunch of green balls around, in my vision there would be man-made-grey pitches and green ball icon in sports centre middle. It was actually proposed initially: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/844#issuecomment-343980174, so it's nothing new. Another thing is that for single objects we should use man-made-gray and for more complicated ones leisure-green. I know this ticket is about piches but we have to think long-term.

[meased]

I think https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/844#issuecomment-343980174 was just a lazy photoshop example, not a request to use black icons. I find grey icons quite odd as I can't see how something like "baseball" would be categorized as "generic" and not "leisure".

Could you explain your vision a little better? Perhaps a mockup?

[geostonemarten]

And what about multi or comma separated value. In your case you don't add name but I have lot of example with complexe name and sub parts with pitch name

[kocio-pl]

I would try with sport icons for pitches rendered as green, but stadiums or other bigger sport entities with a reversed white icon on a green background - something like we do with bus stops and bus stations:

[geostonemarten]

I would try with sport icons for pitches rendered as green, but stadiums or other bigger sport entities with a reversed white icon on a green background - something like we do with bus stops and bus stations:

Why??? that is not the case for all other icons in openstreetmap carto ...

[kocio-pl]

Because this way we would keep the color for pitches while at the same time indicating that they are special (bigger).

[boothym]

@Adamant36 agreed, though my only concern with the Tomasz-W icons is the basketball being too similar to the soccer ball?

Do you mind rendering a pitch which has a name as well as a sport?

@Tomasz-W my image further up the thread was just a quick photoshop to try and get some progress on this issue (first comment in 9 months!) 😉 I'd go for green now that I've seen it rendered.

As for a big soccer training centre - it would be good to have some example renderings of both pitches and sports centres with sport=*:

• https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/145858940
• https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.4238/-2.3678
• https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/428742471 (weird that the name doesn't render)

[Adamant36]

So, green for the icons it is then.........Any feedback besides @boothym's on which set of icons are better?

@boothym, they do kind of look similar. I'm willing to go with Maki's soccer ball, if there is wider agreement.

Also, as I said above, I'm not doing sports centers until pitches get done and rendered. Its a lot less complicated that way and it has a better chance of not getting derailed before it gets merged.

Plus, we haven't even figured out the icons we are going with yet anyway. So, its kind of putting the cart before the horse.

If there's a problem with that, someone else is free to work on the issue.

[Tomasz-W]

My picks of icons after test renderings:

• baseball -> Tomasz-W
• basketball -> 50/50
• soccer -> Tomasz-W
• tennis -> Tomasz-W

@Adamant36 Anyway, I hope you will make tests of example places linked above in both versions (e.g. with simple green dot-rendering for sports centres) to compare and make a fair decision ;)

[Adamant36]

@tomasz-W, OK.

I will eventually after pitches get done. Rendering on sports centers doesn't really affect how or what's rendered on pitches at this point though. Plus, The green dot-rendering is a different issue. It will get done at some point in its own PR.

[Adamant36]

@Tomasz-W, btw, do you know of any sports centers tagged as one sport that contains pitches from another sport? Also, it seems like it would be a little redundant to have an icon for a sports center along with all the pitches there. It should be clear from the pitches what kind of sports center it is. Plus, they might block each other out.

P.S. Can you make icons for roller skating and ice skating? They both have numbers around 1000 each, but I feel like they could be added anyway. Since there probably aren't many places for them in the world anyway.

[Hufkratzer]

my only concern with the Tomasz-W icons is the basketball being too similar to the soccer ball?

The maki basketball icon is hard to recongnize, therefore I would prefer the ball icon for basketball.

What about something like ? This is from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Font_Awesome_5_solid_basketball-ball.svg, not free, would have to be redrawn.

[boothym]

@Adamant36 I was actually thinking the other way around - use Maki's basketball with the backboard, and Tomasz-W's soccer ball.

[IgorEliezer]

Hello,

If having so many icons is an issue (#3651) or having field marking is too much (#1126), why don't you people reuse the leisure=fitness_station icon to represent all ground sports since most of them involve running or at least moving on a field?

I think having to distinguish a sport field from the rest of the map is more of an issue than distinguishing the fields from each other.

It would at least reduce the need of using generic names like "Soccer field" to identify a green rectangle in the middle of nowhere, like this https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-23.42452/-47.58841.

[Adamant36]

@imagico, what would you think about @IgorEliezer suggestion? I was also thinking maybe it would doable to at least add icons for sports complexes. Since it wouldn't lead to that much more clutter, there's a few different kind of sports that have sports complexes in the first place, and there's already an icon for swimming centers. What's your opinion doing that? At least then we could not go off the cliff of rendering icons for everything from baseball to mud wrestling.

[imagico]

This issue is about differentiating sport pitches by type of sport. I don't think the suggestion would do that.

The running figure symbol - which is currently used for fitness centres and sports shops - is one of the more problematic symbols currently used by this style. The running figure is internationally most commonly used for symbolizing emergency exits - see for example:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ketheltunnel_nooduitgang.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Slovenia_road_sign_III-122.1.svg

Using this to symbolize sports has a high probability of being misleading and confusing - already in how it is used right now but further if this use was extended.

[kocio-pl]

I believe basket icon has the same probability of confusion, because from what I remember it's commonly - if not exclusively - used as "shop" icon (not "convenience shop"). The context (being inside buildings or on the fresh air, not on the edges of buildings, plus we have totally different symbols for entries) makes running figure safe for me.

I don't have a strong opinion how to render sport grounds, both having individual icons (at high zoom level) or reusing running man icon is OK for me, I just prefer the first one.

[pqhf5kd]

Any updates on this?

[imagico]

The current problem with this just like with any other POI symbol additions is the lack of consensus on #3635. The best chance if anyone wants to address this would probably be to work towards a symbolization other than a POI icon. There was fairly elaborate discussion also on #3651 that might be helpful in that regard.

[Adamant36]

Any updates on this?

I tried it in #3651 and it was way to busy. As @imagico says, the best way forward is probably without it involving a POI icon. Which kind of makes me think this issue should be closed as wontfix.

[imagico]

I changed the issue title to not imply a POI icon is necessarily the only solution. IMO differentiating sports would still be a useful feature if it can be implemented in a non-obtrusive way.

[Adamant36]

What about just rendering the fill color of pitches based on the surface or what the sport tag is? I feel like pitch green is to all encompassing and has homogenized a bunch of things that barely share anything in common in real life. If all the sports where not connected through them having the pitch tag they would probably be rendered completely differently. There's more then enough uses for a lot of them to consider them as separate objects. I think pitch green works when its the main sports that take place on grass like baseball, football, and soccer. When it includes things like beach volleyball, horse ridding, or skate parks, none of which are usually done on grass or considered pitches, it's kind of to generalized and loses its thematic meaning.

[jeisenbe]

You are correct that some uses of leisure=pitch are not usually covered in grass. However, there are some sports where more than one surface is possible: for example, tennis courts are often grass, but can also be artificial turf, concrete or clay. And many pitches which are usually grass can be replaced by artificial turf, or might be just dirt in less developed countries.

I would consider the sport to be the more important information: if you want to play basketball you will be disappointed by a tennis or volleyball court, whether it is grass, clay or concrete.

[Adamant36]

I would consider the sport to be the more important information: if you want to play basketball you will be disappointed by a tennis or volleyball court, whether it is grass, clay or concrete.

At least with the main sports, I think most people can extrapolate what it is by the size, shape, and surrounding details. No one is going to confuse a baseball field for a basketball court, an American football field for a tennis court., an American football field for a baseball field or whatever. Having the leisure pitch green color on them just seems to add a pointless extra bit of cognitive load. Which isn't really that intuitive anymore with over 200 sports being tagged with it, that share nothing in common with each other, except for all being called "sports." But "sport" is mainly a mental category, not a cartographic (geographic) one. Whereas, the rendering is currently as if it's a cohesive, shared by all sports, landuse (called "pitches") or something similar. Which it isn't IMO. I do at least know the current pitch green isn't working or people wouldn't have asked for icons to supplement (clarify) it.

[jidanni]

See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:leisure%3Dpitch#Rendering_of_pitches_according_to_sport .

[HolgerJeromin]

@jidanni This alternate solution in tracked in #1126

[imagico]

I have shown now a demonstration for a possible approach to this in

http://blog.imagico.de/single-symbol-patterns-in-maps/

I am not going to submit this as a PR here as is because i am not sure if this would be a good change under the goals we have and there are numerous issues that would need to be looked at. But it is a demonstration technically and design wise how you can approach this issue without resorting to the primitive POI symbol solution so far discussed which as is being discussed in #3635 is non-sustainable to extend further in this style. Someone interested in differentiating sport pitches might take this as inspiration to develop a solution here. In any case if you do so please consider the points mentioned in https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3651#issuecomment-455859844.

[Adamant36]

Genius solution. How do you think it would conflict with the goals of the style and what issues need to be looked at before it can be implemented?

[jeisenbe]

Symbol examples:

Looks quite good. I would be happy to see a PR which implements this idea.

[jeisenbe]

Rendering sample from the link above:

[jeisenbe]

This sort of symbology could also be a good solution for dog parks, which currently have a repeated symbol which leads to an excessively strong pattern.

[imagico]

The issue of sport=* being tagged on nodes and on features other than leisure=pitch is not addressed by this - see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3651#issuecomment-455859844.

[kocio-pl]

I like the way it looks for pitch areas - it enhances mapper feedback and at the same time is visually unobtrusive (unlike straight icons proposed earlier).

As of nodes - since we're currently not rendering them, we don't have to start to render them from now on.

[kocio-pl]

How this rendering would work with named objects (~19% of sport=* tags have name)?

[imagico]

The change discussed does not modify label rendering for pitches - see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/fc2657db1b5325a669626081819857941d1ffea8.

Regarding labeling of pitches - see #4210.

[kocio-pl]

Is anybody willing to prepare such PR? I'd like to test it.

[Hufkratzer]

As already mentioned earlier (in https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/844#issuecomment-276772643):

Please don't forget a symbol for sport=equestrian.

The current taginfo values for sport in combination with pitch are:	value	frequency
soccer	443k
tennis	356k
basketball	159k
baseball	134k
multi	67k
equestrian	32k
beachvolleyball	21k
volleyball	20k
skateboard	16k
american_football	16k
boules	15k
table_tennis	13k
bowls	12k
athletics	9k
cricket	9k
shooting	5k

A possible symbol for "equestrian" may be found in https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2344#issuecomment-427694146

[sekerob]

Hi, apologies for waking up this thread again, really liking your rendering design and often revisit to see how things come out, noticed that sometimes a pitch of a certain sport does not render, just the green square and wondered if there is some minimum size. Have a situation where a basketball pitch renders at a school, but not at a park 2 miles away where a same size tennis court does render. Another where a full size soccer pitch renders, but not the 'street soccer' sized at same school and park. Sample http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=19&lat=42.46991&lon=14.20103&layers=B0000000FFFFFFF

thanks for reading.

[imagico]

Your link goes to the french style (https://github.com/cquest/osmfr-cartocss). You will have to inquire about issues with their pitch rendering there.

[BertMule]

This is an issue from 2014. It is such an obvious request. Yet in 2021 still there is not even a simple icon put on the pitches (while there are during editing). Come on.