Finish This - define "beginning of a sentence"

[jswingle]

The rulebook should specify whether or not the word after a colon constitutes (or can constitute in some circumstance) the beginning of a sentence, for the purpose of defining Finish This questions.

E.g.:

"The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest..." (Hebrews 8:1) "remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from their wandering..." (James 5:20)

[Daniel-Braisted]

As a quizzer who has studied finish-type questions in detail, this question came up for me with James 5:20. The current rule book specifies "beginning of a sentence". According to my understanding of English grammar rules, a colon doesn't start a new sentence, so such a question would not be allowed. However, I think there are several cases, such as the one mentioned earlier, where the words after the colon stand alone well and are better than using the whole verse. Therefore, I would be fully in favor of changing the rule to allow FT questions in this scenario.

[scottpeterson]

I don't believe your understanding of English grammar rules is correct. The beginning of a sentence is not defined by punctuation, but by structure.

[Daniel-Braisted]

But a colon isn't end punctuation, is it? I don't see how a new sentence can start if the previous one hasn't ended yet.

[gryphonshafer]

A sentence usually ends with end punctuation, but not always; there are exceptions. There's no universal, objective set of English rules—we instead have shared conventions and customs, which are constantly changing.

[jttower]

This discussion isn’t really about grammar rules, it’s about defining the rule more clearly. I agree that the RB isn’t clear as written so how about this: -Must start at the beginning of a sentence or quotation or after a colon.

[gryphonshafer]

Must start at the beginning of a sentence or quotation or after a colon.

I suggest also including em dashes and semi-colons.

[jttower]

How about this: -Must start at the beginning of a sentence or quotation or after a colon, semi-colon, or dash.

(I don’t think we need to specify the type of dash)

[gryphonshafer]

If we don't specify the type of dash, then "colon, or dash" would be a sentence.

And to complicate things even further, there are some cases where a semi-colon does indeed signal the beginning of a new sentence but not one we (in Quizzing) would want to be a new sentence. For example, the quotes from Rom 14:11 or Rom 15:12.

[jttower]

We are trying to make the RB understandable, and I don’t feel like most people use the word “‘‘em dashes” (at least not in my experience). But, @gryphonshafer , I’ll turn it over to you to suggest some language😁

[shamwow2319]

The phrases/clauses, etc that come after a dash very rarely stand on their own. After a semi-colon is iffy too, although I could be swayed on that. I would have no issue with saying an FT can start after a colon

[ZacharyTinker]

Students are taught that sentences are formed with independent clauses that could be joined with other independent or dependent clauses.

Students are also taught that two independent clauses joined by a colon are part of a single sentence. Even if there are instances in the far technicalities, we need to be clear for the students. We could define it as

• "A portion of a verse that contains at least one independent clause"
• "Does not start a verse"
• "Does end the verse"

Or... we just remove this question type or limit it to just quotations.

I do not like FT questions that are not purely quotation. I say this because otherwise there are a multitude of verses that could have many FT questions written from just a single verse.

James 4:11

11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

This verse contains three different sentences each with independent clauses. This would create two legal FT questions.

I do not like this because it creates quite a few near duplicate questions and answers, which is something we should try to avoid when possible.

[scottpeterson]

I am strongly in favor of RB language that leaves nothing about the format of valid FTs unknown to quizzers. I don't care much about the specifics beyond that.

[levikoral]

According to the internet it said, "In American English, styles differ, but it is best to capitalize the first word AFTER a colon IF what follows forms two or more complete sentences." So what it sounds like to me is that after a colon you only capitalize the first word if it forms two or more complete sentences.

[levikoral]

So what I think should be done in order to avoid confusion is say that anything after a colon is not a new sentence, and thus it is not a valid FT.

[scottpeterson]

And I would go even further and not use "sentence" as any part of the definition of a valid FT beginning.

[kclimenhaga]

I can see one of two situations working:

1. Leave the rule more or less as is, where FTs must start either at the start of a sentence (after a period, question mark, or exclamation mark) or the start of a quotation.
2. Remove all requirements for the start of a finish this, and just say that a finish this must be a complete thought (similar to FTV requirements). That would let us write FTs for verses that start with "I tell you the truth", among other things, and would clear up the confusion regarding sentence starts.

I don't like trying to define "beginning of a sentence", because it is difficult to define in a way that a) covers all cases, and b) can be understood by quizzers (some of whom may be young or have a first language other than English). I know defining a sentence by punctuation is problematic at a linguistics level, but I think it's the most familiar definition for the average quizzer.

[jttower]

In the interest of moving things along, I like going with @kclimenhaga 's first suggestion and just clarifying that in the rule book would be simplest.
So under 2.2.2.4.5. Finish This (FT)

Begins in the middle of a verse and finishes at the end of the verse
Must start at the beginning of a sentence (after a period, question mark, or exclamation mark) or the beginning of a quotation