safari-is-the-new-ie.com

[stuartpb]

I just bought this domain, which perfectly encapsulates something I've been saying for that last year or two: Microsoft is no longer the burden on the web platform it once was, and Apple has risen up to take its frustrating place.

When I first registered it, I had the domain redirecting to Nolan Lawson's terrific blog post by this name, which I now link to as part of a GitHub Pages site:

https://github.com/stuartpb/www.safari-is-the-new-ie.com/

I'm trying to build a ~single-screen distillation of that article's points for the average user (in the vein of the sites that encouraged people to ditch IE like http://browsingbetter.com/ and http://abetterbrowser.org/), along with a "What Can I Do?" section making a few possible calls to action:

• Drumming up public support for telling Apple to get their act together
• Petitioning apple to allow alternative iOS WebView implementations if they're not going to maintain WebKit to the level of Blink/Gecko/Spartan
• Encouraging devs who are capable to try to bring WebKit up to Blink and co. themselves, and/or contribute to polyfills

Thoughts? Pinging authors of pages mentioned above / linked in the article: @nolanlawson @jakearchibald @simevidas @yathit @thatryan @ejc

Also pinging @burocratik (http://outdatedbrowser.com/en) and @xPaw (author of CloudFlare's A Better Browser banner-inliner https://github.com/xPaw/CF-ABetterBrowser)

[SarahX]

Here it is: https://gist.github.com/SarahX/ec5525291686e2b83c5b

Fell free to contribute everyone....this is a community effort and everyone should input.

[no2pixel]

@SarahX the content blocking tools in iOS 9 aren't to push people to the app store; it is to improve the user experience on the mobile web (isn't that what you want?). Web ads are out of control. Kudos to Apple for bringing mobile Safari in line with desktop browsers with regards to giving users the ability to avoid the scourge of garbage ad practices in place on the web today. The "walled garden" vs. "open platform" comparison isn't relevant here. That rhetoric is tired, and inaccurate.

This is starting to read a lot more like it has little to do with getting Apple to improve Safari on iOS, and more to do with developer laziness. Developers who want to reach iOS users need to consider how iOS users use their devices.

[SarahX]

@egojab of course I want to prove the mobile web experience...and sadly web ads are sometimes very out of control. I 1000% agree that devs who want to reach iOS users need to consider how iOS users use their devices, as UX matters so much today. It' should not be about laziness, instead developers should work just as hard to meaningfully engage with iOS users the way it is now, but we should still encourage Apple to stay up to date with Safari. Thx for pointing that out, sometimes I'm wrong on topics, that's ok.

[RangerMauve]

@egojab Take into consideration that it's not just about features that are only available in the latest Chrome. Safari is lacking many features that are already implemented in the other major browser vendors (Firefox, ie11, Opera). As well Safari has implemented some features very poorly, for example IndexedDB.

[SarahX]

IndexedDB is not supported on Safari 7.1, but it does have partial support on more recent versions, although according to Can I Use on iOS8 it can sometimes be seriously buggy.

[no2pixel]

@RangerMauve I agree that Safari can certainly catch up in some of the more bleeding edge feature areas, but it's also important to understand that Safari is build for the web as it exists today, not for the web as it may be used in the future; they aren't making a browser for bleeding edge experimentation, they are building a browser for the vast majority of users and websites as they exist now, and doing so in a manner that seems focused on the user experience more than the developer experience. That may be frustrating for me as a developer, but ultimately, if it results in a better end-user experience, it's difficult to find much fault there.

I certainly do want Apple to be more engaged in developer and browser related discussions; What I don't want though, is for Apple to simply follow in Google's footsteps and bloat the browser with a whole bunch of "features" that have noticeably and measurably resulted in Chrome being an inefficient, bloated, beast, that is no longer best for users, even if it is "best" for developers.

[0xcaff]

:+1:

[RangerMauve]

@egojab I'm not sure why you're so fixated on Chrome when it's just one of the players out there. Features aren't being developed and implemented only in Chrome, it's pushed forwards by standards bodies and Firefox is also big on developing and deploying new features. Also the idea of Chrome becoming bloated is new to me, do you have any references that support that claim?

[RangerMauve]

Sorry, the main point I was trying to make with that is that Safari not implementing features isn't just about not following the path set out by Google, but it's related to them ignoring the web community as a whole when they don't participate in it.

[no2pixel]

@RangerMauve Only because the larger discussion I see surrounding Lawson's original article elsewhere; which seems to have started the whole feeding frenzy; is heavily skewed towards Chrome fans just wanting Safari to be more like Chrome, or just generally pushing for Apple to allow the full Chrome browser on iOS.

As I said in my previous comment, I do want Apple to be more engaged and support more bleeding edge features, I just think the rhetoric surrounding this right now is more alarmist than is necessary or realistic. The "new IE" label is just as appropriate for Chrome in my mind when we have developers being lazy and making "only works in Chrome" sites/apps.

As for Chrome being inefficient and bloated, there are plenty of articles and stories about that, most widely as it relates to battery life on devices, but also in memory and CPU usage.

[RangerMauve]

I can agree that it might be a bit alarmist, but I disagree that it's just about Chrome fans wanting Safari to be more like Chrome, I think it's fans of modern browsers in general that are keeping up to date with new standards.

[no2pixel]

I don't think it's just about Chrome fans wanting Safari to be more like Chrome - I just think that there is a lot of that underlying the conversation.

[SarahX]

I don't think Safari has to be more like Chrome...it can still adhere to Apple's minimalist design and UI standards yet still implement modern web standards. It's not just Chrome fans asking Apple to improve Safari...it's Firefox users and I probably think some of us could be typing this on our iOS devices as well. We are not looking for Safari to change to be more like Chrome, we want a better dev and user experience on the web in general.

[mryellow]

Nothing to do with Chrome fans vrs Safari fans. It's about not having to wait years for Apple to slowly breakdown, eventually acquiesces and allow software on their devices, to save their market share.

We can wait 5+ years of hamstrung innovation as they attempt to run the vendor locking strategy, one which has failed time and time again, or they can get with the program and remain relevant into the future while keeping developers on-side.

[stuartpb]

Hey all - I'm about halfway through catching up on this issue (had my hands full for a few hours with https://botbot.me/freenode/dokku/2015-07-03/?msg=43597775&page=3). I'm up to about https://github.com/h5bp/lazyweb-requests/issues/181#issuecomment-118372190 - I'll have something more to say after I've finished reading the (much more dense) further replies between then and now.

[stuartpb]

Okay, I'm caught up.

Yeah, in general the messaging I'm trying to go for here is more geared toward asking Apple to let iOS users have a choice, with regards to supporting the view expressed by @RangerMauve that browsers should move forward to embrace new standards (browsers should be liberal), versus supporting the view expressed by @egojab that web browsers should be reticent to adopt new standards (browsers should be conservative). Right now, Apple is imposing their conservative web views on all their customers, and that's a problem.

[stuartpb]

It's fine if Apple doesn't want to introduce new standards into Safari (even though the attitude I'm picking up isn't so much that they're opposed to integrating new standards as that they're disinterested in doing so), but the problem is in denying other vendors who do want to introduce these standards in their apps.

[SarahX]

So is the real issue not just about specific standards (un)compliance in Safari but the lack of browser choice on iOS? That makes sense but it is highly unlikely that Apple will try to add more competition by opening up to Chrome/Firefox/Opera/whatever.

[stuartpb]

Pinging Apple devs mentioned here by @addyosmani (or best guess): @jondavis @kdecker (assuming Kevin Decker is not @kpdecker) @hober

[SarahX]

Once we get the petition up and running we should post it to HN and Reddit (if the tech subreddits are back up). We could potentially get thousands of views from those sites.

[stuartpb]

@SarahX The issue is specific standards (un)compliance in Safari compounded with the lack of browser choice on iOS. Fixing either side of this would make this less of an issue: fixing the latter is the one that would require significantly less effort from Apple, with less potential for friction going forward. (Ideally, it would be nice if Apple did both, but really they just need to let somebody fix it, which is what the latter fix is.)

[SarahX]

I agree...a hybrid mix of both would be the best option but I also feel that having more browser choice on iOS would eventually solve the first problem as they would need to be more competitive.

[stuartpb]

@SarahX Yes. See also https://kenneth.io/blog/2015/07/03/safari-isnt-the-problem-but-the-lack-of-browser-choice-in-ios-is/ by @auchenberg (as linked above by @addyosmani).

[SarahX]

@addyosmani makes a good point in the blog post where it says that these issues are holding back innovation on the web. The industry is usually a move fast(ish) while (sometimes) breaking things type of industry, and innovation is a driving force. Perhaps Apple is fearful of showing users too much outside their control?

[stuartpb]

Looks like Tomas Salfischberger (https://twitter.com/t0mas, @celerity / no GitHub user account) went ahead and started a change.org petition: https://www.change.org/p/apple-allow-true-other-browsers-on-ios

[stuartpb]

Will update the "Sign the petition" link momentarily (linking to this thread as "Discuss the problem").

Edit: updated.

[stuartpb]

Continuing from https://github.com/h5bp/lazyweb-requests/issues/181#issuecomment-117792929 and https://github.com/h5bp/lazyweb-requests/issues/181#issuecomment-118435712, I just sent this email:

Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 17:43:51 -0700 From: "Stuart P. Bentley" stuart@testtrack4.com To: team@fightforthefuture.org, info@eff.org, action@eff.org, jond@ingenesis.net, kdecker@apple.com, hober0@gmail.com Subject: Opening the Web Platform for iOS

Hi, I started http://www.safari-is-the-new-ie.com to raise awareness of a serious (albeit somewhat technical) problem with the way Apple handles browsers on iOS (further information on these linked pages):

• http://nolanlawson.com/2015/06/30/safari-is-the-new-ie/
• https://kenneth.io/blog/2015/07/03/safari-isnt-the-problem-but-the-lack-of-browser-choice-in-ios-is/
• https://github.com/h5bp/lazyweb-requests/issues/181

Considering this is an open internet issue (specifically an open Web issue), do you have any suggestions / thoughts / resources on what we can do to make it better?

[SarahX]

If EFF and FFTF supports this they could make it one of their headlines and drive traffic to the petition site...that's another great way to get more people aware of what's going on bc so far this issue has a small follower base.

[SarahX]

What does true other browsers mean? This is fairly unclear.

[stuartpb]

Right now iOS has "false other browsers", in the form of apps for Chrome (and I think Firefox?) that are using WKWebView under the hood (ie. they're not truly other browsers).

[SarahX]

Good point....but some people might not understand what this means and it is in the title of the petition. I was just thinking it should be more clearer as this can be confusing to those who do not fully understand all of the technical aspects surronding it. Some might not sign it if they are confused at the first thing they read. Just a suggestion..the rest looks great.

[stuartpb]

You should tweet at https://twitter.com/t0mas, the petition's author.

[SarahX]

Thx but I regret to say I don't have Twitter. I just read other people's feeds...I'm too lazy to sign up. Does he have a GitHub?

[no2pixel]

@stuartpb I'd like to clarify that my stance is not "web browsers should be reticent to adopt new standards" It is that I think it's important to reach out to understand why Apple has chosen to adopt the standards they have, and not yet adopted others. I would absolutely like to see more advanced, experimental features in Safari, but I don't think it's appropriate to take them to task over it without at least attempting to understand their choices first. That is why I fully support attempting to gain more involvement from Apple in discussions and events surrounding these features and issues.

Furthermore, I'd argue that you're not quite fit to take up the mantle of such a cause if you don't actually use the products, or don't have an understanding of what is or is not available on them. To say "and I think Firefox" shows that you have a lack of knowledge on the subject, and seemingly a lack of desire to learn about it; as it would have only taken a couple of minutes of research to understand that there is, in fact, no Firefox browser on iOS.

Lastly, the whole tone of this discussion is going to have a poor chance of gaining any serious following when you keep saying things like "Apple is fearful of showing users too much outside their control". That is inaccurate and insulting to Apple, and to the users you're claiming to want to help. I think there is more hope if your attempts were not laced with the divisive "us vs. them" language creeping in here.

[stuartpb]

@egojab

Lastly, the whole tone of this discussion is going to have a poor chance of gaining any serious following when you keep saying things like "Apple is fearful of showing users too much outside their control". That is inaccurate and insulting to Apple, and to the users you're claiming to want to help. I think there is more hope if your attempts were not laced with the divisive "us vs. them" language creeping in here.

You realize @SarahX and I are two different people, right? :smile:

[no2pixel]

@stuartpb Yes, I do, sorry, that was in response to @SarahX. I should have clarified.

[SarahX]

@stuartpb and @egojab: I did not say anything about "I think Firefox". And yes, we are different people. I do also believe that we should reach out to Apple and have discussions on how to improve the web experience for both users and developers. I am not trying to stir up hate for Apple, I too, use some of their products and enjoy using them as well.

[stuartpb]

@egojab

Furthermore, I'd argue that you're not quite fit to take up the mantle of such a cause if you don't actually use the products, or don't have an understanding of what is or is not available on them. To say "and I think Firefox" shows that you have a lack of knowledge on the subject, and seemingly a lack of desire to learn about it; as it would have only taken a couple of minutes of research to understand that there is, in fact, no Firefox browser on iOS.

I used "I think Firefox" as a shorthand for "other browser apps", since I am very busy trying to moderate this issue, and draft a standard for static file server routing, and work with Dokku maintainers who expect to be "releasing a 0.4.0 tomorrow and then a 0.5.0 Sunday" to integrate projects that have existed separately for almost a year. I apologize that I don't have time to look up every last pedantic barely-relevant detail when answering individual requests for clarification.

[stuartpb]

Also, this is why I'm leaving the majority of the drafting/planning/outreach on this issue to users like @nolanlawson, @auchenberg, t0mas (on Twitter), and @addyosmani, just popping in to handle bits and bobs of pinging and pages here and there to tie it all together.

[SarahX]

@stuartpb: Should I post to HN now?

[no2pixel]

I'm sorry if you're offended by the criticism. I think it's important to actually understand the system you're wanting to fix. Especially when doing so would not actually take a tremendous amount of time. If you're just going to blindly follow some alarmist blog post that went viral online, fine, but then maybe don't open it up for discussion on a public forum.

I'll respectfully unsubscribe from here, as this feels more like a pitchforks and torches posse than a discussion of what's actually best for web users and web advancement.

[stuartpb]

@SarahX t0mas does not appear to have a GitHub account (click through that org link, then to the repo, and you'll see that his contributions are attributed without linking.)

@egojab :+1:

[SarahX]

@stuartpb thx for the info....it's not a huge problem to deal with. Perhaps someone else along the road will fix it eventually. As long as it does not distract from the main purpose it's okay. Most of the people signing it in the first place are tech-literate people who will Google something they don't know anyways.

[stuartpb]

Yeah, I'm working on inviting him to join this issue now (once I can stop writing "offended" responses to concern trolls saying I'm "blindly follow[ing] some alarmist blog post that went viral online" without "actually understand[ing] the system you're wanting to fix").

[stuartpb]

tweeted

[SarahX]

@stuartpb thanks that will be a major help to hear his input as he started the petition.

[andysolomon]

Am I allowed to totally disagree with this Petition. I don't want to come on here as a troll or anything, but I strongly disagree with this stance. Maybe this isn't the proper place to oppose of this.

[t0mas]

Hi all,

I do have a Github account :-) same username as Twitter but I see my profile doesn't have a last name which is probably why you couldn't find it.

Looks like there is a suggestion here for a better text, so I'll take a look at that and update the petition. It will take me a bit of time, since I'm currently abroad and about to hop on a flight back home. Feel free to provide suggestions in the mean time.

[Garbee]

@andysolomon It's all good to dislike it (and voice that here.)

Honestly, this moved way too quickly. It went from an idea to petition in a matter of a few days. Even further, as far as I can tell no attempts to reach out to Apple first and see if they would be willing to work to address developers concerns.

Everyone should calm down a bit, put the petition on hold, and we should try to reach out to people at Apple to try and get some official word on things before going any further. We don't need a pitchfork-mob mentality which this seams to have accumulated.

[andysolomon]

@Garbee I agree. I understand everyone's concerns about Safari and mobile Safari. I think Apple is attempting to move forward into a new paradigm shift of users not being reliant on a browser and URLs. Let's remember how old the web is, and how archaic most web technology is. HTML was created in 1993. Do we really expect to be using HTML and CSS in 2023? I think you can expect Apple( and others will follow ) to move towards native software that truly empowers the users, and enhance their user experience.

Yes, a web browser is native software, but it promotes more webapps and web software. I think the 🍏WATCH is the first step towards this new paradigm shift of catering to the user and giving them exactly what they want. Obviously this is an unpopular opinion here, but lets seriously consider the platforms we will be developing for in 2020. Most proponents of the "safari-is-the-new-ie" fame were born in the 20th century, maybe the web as we know it is not equipped for the 21st century.