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harlab / CM4Ext_Nano

Smallest, yet feature rich baseboard for Raspberry Pi Compute Module 4
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Comments, questions, feedback #1

Open harlab opened 3 years ago

harlab commented 3 years ago

Do you have comments or questions on CM4Ext Nano? Feature proposal for future products? Share your thoughts here

derwana commented 3 years ago

Will it be Open Hardware at some point?

harlab commented 3 years ago

@derwana our baseline is:

gabyavra commented 3 years ago

CM4Ext Nano versions

Hello,

Will be multiple versions available? or 3D printed case? For instance I'm looking for something minimalistic, with only two usb C (on only data, on for data+power), the user switch, micro sd.

harlab commented 3 years ago

CM4Ext Nano versions

Hello,

Will be multiple versions available? or 3D printed case? For instance I'm looking for something minimalistic, with only two usb C (on only data, on for data+power), the user switch, micro sd.

Hi Beefier version at the same footprint is under development. We mined Unobtanium to implement USB3 but there should be a really good reason to go from type-A to type-C for USB3, because keyboards and most of flash drives still have type-A connectors. If you describe your use case, we will think of this.

CM4Ext Nano will be shipped without case, so we consider designing 3D printed one

gabyavra commented 3 years ago

CM4Ext Nano versions Hello, Will be multiple versions available? or 3D printed case? For instance I'm looking for something minimalistic, with only two usb C (on only data, on for data+power), the user switch, micro sd.

Hi Beefier version at the same footprint is under development. We mined Unobtanium to implement USB3 but there should be a really good reason to go from type-A to type-C for USB3, because keyboards and most of flash drives still have type-A connectors. If you describe your use case, we will think of this.

CM4Ext Nano will be shipped without case, so we consider designing 3D printed one

For the second version do you have a timeline? And a price for both? Thank you.

harlab commented 3 years ago

For the second version do you have a timeline? And a price for both? Thank you.

CM4Ext Nano - $29.90 For a second one we have a good progress, but not ready to announce any details yet.

ethanhs commented 3 years ago

Hi, really cool little board! I wanted to mention that the WTFPL is rather problematic (see https://opensource.google/docs/thirdparty/licenses/#wtfpl-not-allowed) and it'd be much better to license under the MIT or BSD licenses.

Also for a hardware license, the CERN open hardware license is a good option: https://ohwr.org/project/cernohl/wikis/home

machadofelipe commented 3 years ago

Hey @harlab , really cool board... There is a lot of users from https://github.com/OpenHD/Open.HD/ looking for something very similar as you did. We may need some more power to hook up a powerful wireless card at the USB but all the rest seems very good. Let us know once available for purchase! Congrats!

CopterGUI commented 3 years ago

Hello Really awesome board. Like Felipe above me I want to use this board with the OpenHD project. I'd like to suggest a version with an integrated DC/DC to have the possibility of powering it directly from a 2-6s Lipo battery and some usb2.0 solder pads without power limitation.

Best greetings Sebastian

gabyavra commented 3 years ago

@harlab Hello, as far as I understand from the description, it is not possible to use both USB C and USB A for data in the same time. Is it right?

harlab commented 3 years ago

Hi, really cool little board! I wanted to mention that the WTFPL is rather problematic (see https://opensource.google/docs/thirdparty/licenses/#wtfpl-not-allowed) and it'd be much better to license under the MIT or BSD licenses. Also for a hardware license, the CERN open hardware license is a good option: https://ohwr.org/project/cernohl/wikis/home

Hi @ethanhs, Thanks for your feedback. WTFPL license was mentioned with a grain of humor. We will consider using corresponding license, especially if contributing mainline

harlab commented 3 years ago

Hi @machadofelipe and @CopterGUI, Mods and features you're asking too specific for general purpose CM4Ext Nano board, but you're welcome to discuss it here: harlab/CM4Ext_Nano#3

harlab commented 3 years ago

Hello, as far as I understand from the description, it is not possible to use both USB C and USB A for data in the same time. Is it right?

Hi @gabyavra You're correct. CM4 has only one USB2.0 port that can be used as USB host or USB device. To have both of them we need USB hub on PCIe. This is under development now and we'd like to hear your usecase to meet your expectations.

gabyavra commented 3 years ago

Hello, as far as I understand from the description, it is not possible to use both USB C and USB A for data in the same time. Is it right?

Hi @gabyavra You're correct. CM4 has only one USB2.0 port that can be used as USB host or USB device. To have both of them we need USB hub on PCIe. This is under development now and we'd like to hear your usecase to meet your expectations.

I want to use this as a portable WiFi audit device. Connect and power it using usb C and ssh via emulated Ethernet (usb C) and use an additional WiFi NIC on the USB A. At the moment though I can use the embedded WiFi card, the chipset is supported by tools such as air crack-ng. So I can still use it as it is, since I can use USB C as data.

bdhwan commented 3 years ago

hi. when and how can i buy this?

harlab commented 3 years ago

I want to use this as a portable WiFi audit device. Connect and power it using usb C and ssh via emulated Ethernet (usb C) and use an additional WiFi NIC on the USB A. At the moment though I can use the embedded WiFi card, the chipset is supported by tools such as air crack-ng. So I can still use it as it is, since I can use USB C as data

Nice use case and CM4Ext model to support this is on a drawing board. However, can't announce any dates at the moment.

gabyavra commented 3 years ago

I want to use this as a portable WiFi audit device. Connect and power it using usb C and ssh via emulated Ethernet (usb C) and use an additional WiFi NIC on the USB A. At the moment though I can use the embedded WiFi card, the chipset is supported by tools such as air crack-ng. So I can still use it as it is, since I can use USB C as data

Nice use case and CM4Ext model to support this is on a drawing board. However, can't announce any dates at the moment.

Can you show a sneak preview of it? 😁

harlab commented 3 years ago

hi. when and how can i buy this?

Hi @bdhwan, we're doing our best to release it at the end of February. Stores will be announced at product page and our Twitter

harlab commented 3 years ago

Can you show a sneak preview of it? 😁

USB-C device, 2xUSB3, SD card and optional mini PCIe

Azkali commented 3 years ago

Super cool project I'm interested to make a USB multi gadget device with it.

I'm excited by the mini PCIe port but is it planned as a CMExt4_Nano feature too or does this concern the OpenHD version or another version only ?

I had in mind that it could be connected to the back of the main board between CM4 and CMExt4_Nano through a ribbon cable and be a separate daughter board for mini PCIe only but it is just an idea

rubencg195 commented 3 years ago

Will it be open source? It'll be awesome if it could be!!

harlab commented 3 years ago

Hi @Azkali

Super cool project I'm interested to make a USB multi gadget device with it. I'm excited by the mini PCIe port but is it planned as a CMExt4_Nano feature too or does this concern the OpenHD version or another version only ? I had in mind that it could be connected to the back of the main board between CM4 and CMExt4_Nano through a ribbon cable and be a separate daughter board for mini PCIe only but it is just an idea

Thanks for your input. Placing PCIe card between CM4 and baseboard is barely possible, because only 1.5mm thickness available when using 3.0mm stack height Hirose connectors. Instead, we prefer standard PCIe form-factors.

CM4Ext Nano design is complete and we're not going to make a big changes.

CM4Ext Nano OpenHD is a separate project from mentioned above and targeted to specific, but awesome application: low latency HD video transmission.

CM4Ext Nano with 2xUSB3.0 and PCIe support is one of our next projects and we'd like to hear your use cases to make sure it'd fit your needs.

harlab commented 3 years ago

Hi @rubencg195

Will it be open source? It'll be awesome if it could be!!

Currently we're going to use pretty much the same approach as RPF: open software and reduced interface schematics where applicable. If you're thinking of your own open source hardware, let us know - we might contribute

tmeers commented 3 years ago

This is almost exactly what I want to have! But I'm aiming for dual CSI connectors instead of having a CSI and DSI, or possibly dual CSI and a DSI. Beyond that it's wonderful!

Azkali commented 3 years ago

Hi @harlab

My use case is a bit weird.

I intend to make a USB gadget device with the PiCM4 and CMExt4 with "swappable" HID's and peripherals that extends other devices.

So you could pass through any device attached to the Pi or most of them ( storage or HID's or even PCIe devices like a 4/5G module if even possible ) to another computer, tablet etc.. To extend the other device capabilities. ( Being able to stream video output to a second screen would be a must. )

I would need DSI, CSI, USB host + device ( through USB C would be better ), power fed to the Pi via a 5V battery, grove connector, USB 2/3.0 x1 ( or more ), PCIe, SDcard ( but optional ) in my project.

Thanks for your interest on this project ! I appreciate

harlab commented 3 years ago

@tmeers, thanks for your feedback. Can you share your application?

@Azkali, features you ask are quite possible. Only issue is that even if you have USB-C for PC-CM4Ext connection, it's still USB2.0 for data because of CM4 USB port. However CM4Ext can have USB3.0

tmeers commented 3 years ago

@tmeers, thanks for your feedback. Can you share your application?

@harlab it's for a dual camera set up, having both a regular camera and the NoIR camera for day and night shots. Or even stereoscopic pictures. Working with a Pi 2B and a Zero for a single cam, and it's all well and good, but I would love dual, and be on this way more compact platform.

Outside of that I have a few other ideas for using the CM4 and something like this nano board would be perfect for those applications as is!

Azkali commented 3 years ago

@harlab Thanks for your answer I appreciate !

Yes I am aware that I can only use usb2.0 but it is good enough for now. But is it hardware related or software only ? If it is the latter I'm sure someone will fix it someday 😉 If you have any plan to make such device or anything really that could help my project let me know, but thanks for your time and work on this promising board !

harlab commented 3 years ago

@harlab it's for a dual camera set up, having both a regular camera and the NoIR camera for day and night shots. Or even stereoscopic pictures. Working with a Pi 2B and a Zero for a single cam, and it's all well and good, but I would love dual, and be on this way more compact platform. Outside of that I have a few other ideas for using the CM4 and something like this nano board would be perfect for those applications as is!

@tmeers Thanks again for feedback!

Yes I am aware that I can only use usb2.0 but it is good enough for now. But is it hardware related or software only ? If you have any plan to make such device or anything really that could help my project let me know, but thanks for your time and work on this promising board !

@Azkali, USB2.0 is hardware related. While adding USB3.0 A/type C host is easy and straightforward, USB3.0 device mode is not trivial. Future boards will be announced here and on Twitter

gabyavra commented 3 years ago

any images with the 3D printed case?:)

harlab commented 3 years ago

@gabyavra not yet, currently we're working to put the board into production. But will share some pictures as soon as we design and print some cases

Zach1812 commented 3 years ago

$30 for a mini adapter for the CM4? Sign me up. When can I get one? I'd love to design some cases for it. As well as figuring out how to put it in a retro gaming handheld.

harlab commented 3 years ago

Hi @Zach1812, boards are in production now and should be available for purchase in March. We are preparing specifications update and will release drawings, so anyone can design and 3D print their own cases. Regarding retro gaming handheld - is there anything we can help with?

Zach1812 commented 3 years ago

Honestly the biggest thing missing from the Raspberry Pi would be the addition of an ADC like the ADS1115. Just a small 4 channel 12 bit or 16 bit ADC for joysticks. Since you've already have the DSI MIPI and HDMI and the CM4 has Wifi and Bluetooth built in, I can't think of anything else at the moment I'd need.

harlab commented 3 years ago

@Zach1812

Zach1812 commented 3 years ago

Sorry. Yes, there are a lot of ADS1015/ADS1115 breakout boards that could work. A lot of them would indeed fit the form factor. The addition of it would only reduce the number of boards and additional pieces required to fit a "standard" (14+ digital buttons, 4 analog signals) retro game setup.

As for most used joysticks, most of the older used ones would be like the PSP-1000 or the Nintendo Switch Joystick

ADS1115 is not natively (as far as I know) supported by retro game systems (RetroPie, Lakka, Batocera, etc.). One would need to have a controller program running in the background checking on and pushing any changes in analog movement. All retro game systems (that I know of) do have the ability to read analog joysticks and utilize them in systems that allow for analog input. This is why you can use a PS3/PS4/XBOX controller with these systems. That doesn't negate the need to have the base operating system understand there is a change in voltage and post that change. Sadly I'm not the smartest person for this kind of inquiry however. Most of my analog usage for controllers has been passed through a Teensy to be read as a USB_HID, rather than a raw signal.

harlab commented 3 years ago

@Zach1812 Ok, I see... For example SparkFun Qwiic Joystick can do the job? And by the way, for production boards CM4Ext Nano has Qwiic connector instead of Grove

harlab commented 3 years ago

Good news, everyone.

Zach1812 commented 3 years ago

harlab, sorry for the late reply. Yes that Joystick would be able to do the job. I'm not very familiar with Qwiic and would need to prototype some ways to make it work with the setup I have in mind. I can't wait for the Nano to be available! I already have a project under production ready to utilize it's small form factor.

Consti10 commented 3 years ago

Is the 2x csi connector a "small one" aka rpi zero or a "big one" aka rpi 3 ? E.g. not the number of lanes, but the physical size of the connector.

harlab commented 3 years ago

@Consti10 connector size is the same as Raspberry Pi Zero. Please take a note that those are DSI and CSI, not 2xCSI

@Zach1812 Good to hear. Regarding joystick, right not I can't tell "one line in python" solution to make it appear as HID device and definitely tests are needed to check if latency is acceptable.

gabyavra commented 3 years ago

hello, when and where can we start ordering? Thank you

harlab commented 3 years ago

@gabyavra, as you can see on a front page, we’ve manufactured first batch of CM4Ext Nano. We are going to launch in EU and working on import, Declaration of Conformity and other formalities. We see interest from official Raspberry Pi distributors and prefer this model to let our customers purchase CM4Ext Nano along with CM4 and save on shipping.

DrDMo commented 3 years ago

WHEN CAN I BUY TWO?!?

bhamilton1co commented 3 years ago

Looking forward to purchasing some of these. Any idea when your distributors will be shipping?

harlab commented 3 years ago

We are making list of customers who willing to get CM4Ext Nano earlier than they can be put into store. Main reason for this is that first revision of the boards has audio output quality below expectations - you hear R2D2 speaking in your headphones when CPU gets some load. We don’t want these boards to mix up in retail stores with next (fixed) batches and willing to ship these boards OLNY to a customers who are fully aware of this issue and not going to use audio output in their project. With this, boards can be sent without retail store fees as “invoice - SEPA transfer - shipping”, no MOQ. PM via Twitter with qty and your county to be added to the list

bherbruck commented 3 years ago

Wow! I can't believe I am just finding this now! I have been working on a cm4 based system for machine vision with reverse side IO so the pi can be cooled easily and it looks like this is the solution! How do I get on the waiting list?

harlab commented 3 years ago

Wow! I can't believe I am just finding this now! I have been working on a cm4 based system for machine vision with reverse side IO so the pi can be cooled easily and it looks like this is the solution! How do I get on the waiting list?

Hi, @bherbruck we start selling next Monday. DM on Twitter for details

AnshumanFauzdar commented 3 years ago

Hey @harlab can you please upload hardware dimension information/documentation so that 3D printed case designs can be designed?

mmvcom commented 3 years ago

Hi Harlab, Per your instructions, I contacted you via Twitter to get on the list for one of your early boards (with audio issues). This board is exactly what I'm looking for, and I'm ready for payment info.