Difficulty

[ektemple]

Level 1-3 enemies on standard difficulty seem, generally, way too easy. As long as you have minimally prepared to face them, these combats are pretty uninteresting, i.e. w/o drama.

[mciul]

There were some complaints about the hound, the demon of rage, and the jumping bomb. I think Victor made them easier. I think the chain golem was harder in earlier versions too.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with Level 1 creatures being nearly a sure thing. And I often find Level 3 creatures challenging - their quirks all lend themselves to specific strategies that can make them much easier if available, but they can be pretty tough if you're not prepared. But Level 4 creatures can be a big step up, it's true. Note to Remko: Maybe Arena of the Gods should be more of a Level 3.5 battle rather than a Level 4.5 battle.

I don't mind standard difficulty being a little easy either - never being able to get past Adept is boring in its own way.

Morphean grenades, throwing grenades from other rooms, and religion have all made the game a little easier overall, I think. It might be okay to bump up creature difficulty overall, as long as there isn't too much variation in what items are available to the player.

I've just started working on some testing stuff. My dream is to have an AI-vs-AI round robin to generate some actual stats about how difficult each rogue is.

[ektemple]

I've said before that I don't care much for the Kerkerkruip difficulty system's emphasis on winning streaks: The standard difficulty level should be the one that we're balancing and optimizing fun-factor for. I'm not interested in winning multiple times in a row (i.e. scoring above Adept); if I can do that, I either got very lucky, or the game is poorly balanced.

To my mind, one of the major things that makes Kerkerkruip better than most roguelikes is that there are (or used to be) no windshield kills. In other words, I don't agree that level 1 enemies should be a sure thing, especially when the character is at level 0.

But worse, I am finding levels 1-3 to pretty much all be windshield kills. Maybe it's just a lucky string of games, but I've killed the mindslug and tentacle in the last few games after having barely taking a scratch, even when I've gone up against them as just a level 1 character. That's boring!

[mciul]

Is it because of the availability of items, or are you just hitting them all the time?

[ektemple]

Just hitting them, maybe with a shot of ment first. On Dec 16, 2013 10:15 PM, "mciul" notifications@github.com wrote:

Is it because of the availability of items, or are you just hitting them all the time?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/i7/kerkerkruip/issues/190#issuecomment-30725033 .

[mciul]

Wait, you used ment? I can see that making an early battle boring, but that would make the rest of the game pretty exciting!

[ektemple]

No, the rest of the game was pretty dull too. If you have a level 3 power, most of the enemies are a breeze, ment or no. I saved the rest of my ment for Malygris, yet I easily killed the hound (not a scratch) and the daggers (not a scratch), and then enslaved the angel of compassion after hitting him once (he never hit me). I went on to kill Malygris with the help of my two allies. Never used any weapon but the gorgeous dagger, and the only special item was the periapt of prophecy, plus a scroll of the blade that I used for the coup de grace against Malygris. On Dec 17, 2013 12:13 AM, "mciul" notifications@github.com wrote:

Wait, you used ment? I can see that making an early battle boring, but that would make the rest of the game pretty exciting!

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/i7/kerkerkruip/issues/190#issuecomment-30728564 .

[mciul]

The periapt of prophecy is one of the best items in the game, in my opinion. Did you skip fighting the level 4 rogue?

I have had easy games, but I've also had some ass-kicking ones. Maybe the problem is really too much variability. The Overmind makes every battle harder, but if you can get to it early, the rest of the game can be a cinch. But if the demon of rage is also in the dungeon, you can pretty much kiss that game goodbye. Somewhat unexpectedly, the mindslug can actually be easier to defeat with the Overmind in the game, since its alliance can be spread out over multiple rooms. And its power combines really well with the Overmind.

Remember also, the angel of compassion is easier to defeat when you've already killed 3 others. Maybe that's where your game really got too easy?

One more question: Did you have any way to stop Malygris from teleporting or to dispatch the demonic assassin in this game?

I think I would agree that the hound is now a little too easy, and the angel of compassion is a little boring, but being able to defeat the mindslug with ment and the periapt of prophecy is not really so much to brag about. I wouldn't mind if the swarm of daggers were a little tougher too. In addition, the armadillo could perhaps get a slight boost, but being a wanderer and an item-stealer makes it okay to be a little weaker.

By the way, does the armadillo get stronger from eating things? I never looked at the code and it's not clear from the text.

[ektemple]

There's not really that much reason to fight the level 4 rogue, especially when it's the Fanatics of Aite whose power sucks (or it did in v8, maybe it's better now)...

My game got too easy from the very start: killed the armadillo w/o a problem, killed the mindslug w/o a problem, killed or enslaved all the other creatures w/o a problem, and fought Malygris with little problem (with two allies, neither of whom managed to hit him, but each of them probably distracted him from hitting me once). I got lucky early on due to the fact that Fafhrd was sleeping and never woke up, so I didn't have to fight both of the mindslug's minions. But I don't think it would have made much difference--the slug went down fast, and Mouser was never able to touch me.

Malygris never tried to teleport away, nor did he try to summon any minions. I have only faced the angel of compassion twice: once it was the first thing I went after in the dungeon and it went down easily. The second time was in this last game, when it was weakened by my having killed four other enemies first. I hit it once and then enslaved it (I didn't want Mouser to kill it, so I took a chance!)

I didn't have the periapt when I was fighting the mindslug, but even so I don't agree that the periapt is all that great. For one, it's hard to guess what most of its predictions will mean for a given fight; against Malygris it said my attack would be "strong" and I had one level of concentration, so I attacked--but missed. I do think it let me make exactly one decision I otherwise wouldn't have made--I read a scroll when my attack was predicted to be weak. It was the scroll of the blade and it might have let me kill him in one final shot after that (1d10 versus the 1d3 of the dagger), but I didn't actually compare the average damage I'd been meting out to confirm whether it did or not.

I suggest that we adopt a principle similar to this one: none of the monsters with levels should be windshield kills, ever. How this might shape up, for an experienced player with moderate skill: Even if you have a level 3 power, there should still be a good probability that a level 1 rogue will get in a couple of good licks against you. And it should be possible--maybe around a 30% chance, maybe higher--that a level 0 player w/full health will die to a level 1 rogue (at least if the PC has no special items to bring to bear). Moving up, the chance of taking on a level 3 enemy with a level 1 rogue should be maybe 6 to 1 against.

[mciul]

You have to understand what the periapt prediction means. "Strong" just means a high roll, but if your attack bonus is low, there's a good chance only a "heroic" (20) roll will hit. I watch the numbers to figure out what I'm trying to get. If Malygris's defence is 16 and he gets a +2 dodging bonus, then I need to total 19 or more to hit him. So if your attack bonus is 4, even a roll of 10 (strong) + 4 + 2 concentration bonus + 2 tension won't hit him.

[mciul]

I forgot about sleeping. I think having rogues start out sleeping makes the game too easy, every time. The mindslug gets a huge defence bonus when it has both Fafhrd and Mouser fighting for him - I don't know if that bonus checks whether they're sleeping, but it should. If you take out one of them, the mindslug's defence drops by a lot.

I'm amazed that you killed the angel of compassion without getting any souls first. He must have a weakness I haven't found.

As for your suggestion, I prefer having the occasional easy battle to having some games that are impossible to win. Maybe the only way to fix that is to let the player select the difficulty level. I like a game where I know I can win if I play it right. What makes it interesting to me is not whether any battle is a gamble, but whether I have to really think to win that battle.

[mciul]

Maybe we should start some separate issues for points we all agree on? Maybe a third person could do that so we have a more balanced opinion...

[ektemple]

What makes it interesting to me is not whether any battle is a gamble, but whether I have to really think to win that battle.

Exactly. I use the word "interesting" to mean that you have to really think to win, and in my opinion Kerkerkruip should aim for this to be the case for every battle. Right now, most of the battles on standard difficulty are too easy to be interesting, but there's too much randomness to rely on laddering up to stay at your ideal skill level. Players expect to lose most of the time when playing a roguelike ("losing is fun!"), so the standard skill level should in my opinion be much more difficult overall (it's often pretty tough vs Malygris or Bodmall, though, which is one reason that laddering up the skill levels is not really viable).

I'm amazed that you killed the angel of compassion without getting any souls first. He must have a weakness I haven't found.

I think I just did what I usually do: concentrate once or twice, attack, and repeat as necessary, dodging or parrying as required.

Re mindslug, various points raised: The mindslug's companions should follow it, just as the player's allies follow the player--this would eliminate the Overmind exploit (which I have also used). The mindslug should also immediately wake up his sleeping companion(s) when he notices the player. This could cost him a turn, but I agree that he shouldn't be totally bereft of help if his allies start out asleep.

You have to understand what the periapt prediction means...

Oh, I do understand it. But I'm not going to study the numbers that carefully--as I think most players won't. Without reference to the source code, to make optimal use of the periapt you'd first have to map out which words map to which range of rolls (and Kerk's documentation isn't clear about what denomination of die is being rolled in any case, so you have to figure that out first). Then you have to remember that information or--gasp!--write it down.

While there are certainly players who would enjoy that sort of thing, I don't think we can expect that this is true of most players.

[VictorGijsbers]

I've been reading this with much interest, and will comment soon! For now, I'll open an issue in which I would like to collect miniature play reports. That will allow us to gauge the difficulty better.

[VictorGijsbers]

One thing I've done is that I've boosted the difficulty by basically (if not quite) having your difficulty level counting as one higher than it previously did. There are some interesting miscellaneous points in this thread that I also need to look at, but this might be a good start.

[VictorGijsbers]

By the way, I think the lower difficulty is partly explained by the new defence systems. Those allow you to build upon successes, which is something that player is (almost necessarily -- unless he's in a fight he can't handle) better at than his enemy. This difficulty boost might off-set that.

[VictorGijsbers]

The current difficulty of the game seems right to me. What do you people think?

[mciul]

I think I like things easier than @ektemple, but it's fine with me. Except maybe the jumping bomb - I think the free dodge went too far.

[VictorGijsbers]

I did boost the bomb a bit a week or two ago, didn't I? Still too easy?

[mciul]

Maybe. It might actually not be that bad, but getting a free dodge sometimes feels like I got something I didn't deserve.

[ektemple]

I don't think my concerns should slow production, as I haven't played enough to really form a firm opinion on the difficulty level. My sense on reading the mini play reports and from my own few games recently is that the difficulty is probably overly variable game to game rather than globally too easy or too hard.

Maybe we could encourage people to post transcripts, particularly of their beta experience, but also after release?

[mciul]

Sounds right and good to me.

[VictorGijsbers]

Absolutely.

Closing!