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Jakarta RESTful Web Services
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Change project name to Jakarta RESTful Web Services #753

Closed ivargrimstad closed 5 years ago

ivargrimstad commented 5 years ago

Background information: https://waynebeaton.wordpress.com/2019/04/04/renaming-java-ee-specifications-for-jakarta-ee/

Checklist:

mkarg commented 5 years ago

-1 as Wayne's personal opinion is not authoritative. Please instead provide a link to the authoritative decision of the EF that this must be done.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

BTW, is it really needed that someone (don't know who actually) decides about the projects name and the committers of the project are not even considered to get asked for proposals?

mkarg commented 5 years ago

Actually @ivargrimstad 's rather brief summary is not the sole truth. As @waynebeaton commented to the above blog entry, in fact the actual name of the project is to be chosen by us; the list on his blog was just his personal proposal.

@eclipse-ee4j/eclipse-jaxrs Hence all JAX-RS committers are asked hereby to join this discussion to propose the future name of this project. Till now there is no publicly visible reason whether we actually MUST change the project name, nor a deadline until when this MUST be done. So it seems this issue is more like a general discussion than a real to-do.

ivargrimstad commented 5 years ago

Hi,

The naming standard has been formed after discussions among all the members of the Jakarta EE Working Group Steering Committee and Specification Committee. You are free to come up with your own suggestions, but ultimately the names must be approved by (I would guess) the Specification Committee (maybe also the Steering Committee).

Ivar

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:37 AM Markus KARG notifications@github.com wrote:

Actually @ivargrimstad https://github.com/ivargrimstad 's rather brief summary is not the sole truth. As @waynebeaton https://github.com/waynebeaton commented https://waynebeaton.wordpress.com/2019/04/04/renaming-java-ee-specifications-for-jakarta-ee/#comment-26798 to the above blog entry, in fact the actual name of the project is to be chosen by us; the list on his blog was just his personal proposal.

@eclipse-ee4j/eclipse-jaxrs https://github.com/orgs/eclipse-ee4j/teams/eclipse-jaxrs Hence all JAX-RS committers are asked hereby to join this discussion to propose the future name of this project. Till now there is no publicly visible reason whether we actually MUST change the project name, nor a deadline until when this MUST be done. So it seems this issue is more like a general discussion than a real to-do.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/jaxrs-api/issues/753#issuecomment-480154329, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJGxI3lIhr_BoVIwYFhu3yGBM_n0hd6ks5vduEvgaJpZM4cdWvr .

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@ivargrimstad There is a naming standard? Can you please link to the published document?

mkarg commented 5 years ago

Proposal #1: We keep "JAX-RS" and "Java API for RESTful Web Services" as long as nobody of Oracle officially forbids that.

Proposal #2: Once Oracle officially forbids that, we keep "JAX-RS" with its long form "Jakarta API for RESTful Web Services".

ivargrimstad commented 5 years ago

@mkarg I don't think the naming sheet has been published. The naming standard, or pattern, is what Wayne outlined in his blog post.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@ivargrimstad Can we agree upon that Wayne's blog is non-normative, as he explicitly told me that it is solely his personal opinion and not an official EF channel? Can the committees please immediately publish all official decisions somewhere?

ivargrimstad commented 5 years ago

The minutes are published here https://jakarta.ee/meeting_minutes/ as soon as they are approved. I will take it up on the next meeting that this information need to be shared as quickly as possible.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@ivargrimstad Great, thanks! :-) In fact it would be goold if all committees would have official announcement channels that post official decision rather immediately after deciding them. BTW, are minutes authoritative? How to distrinquish between simple discussions and actual MUSTs?

ivargrimstad commented 5 years ago

Ooops, sorry clicked the close button by accident :)

mkarg commented 5 years ago

:-D

chkal commented 5 years ago

My following thoughts are based on the assumption that we aren't allowed to use the Java trademark in the name for the specification anymore. And according to my understanding, that's the current situation and therefore suggestion (1) by @mkarg would not be possible.

In this case I'm voting for:

Jakarta API for RESTful Web Services

I don't think that dropping the API for is a good idea. Keeping it emphasizes that it is an API/specification and not an implementation!

ivargrimstad commented 5 years ago

I kind of like keeping it simple. How about simply Jakarta REST?

@chkal This would be analog to MVC. When we move that spec over, it would make sense to call it Jakarta MVC and not Jakarta API for MVC, which doesn't really add any value...

chkal commented 5 years ago

IMO having API in the name actually adds value, because it makes the specification nature clearer. Or do you think that having Jakarta in the name is sufficient for people to know it is about an API and not an implementation?

I'm not sure if the name must me very short, because people will call it JAX-RS anyway :-)

What about the pattern:

Jakarta {something} API

That's shorter than the "Jakarta API for ..." scheme. It would create names like:

Just my 2 cents :-)

spericas commented 5 years ago

Hi All,

I agree with Christian about keeping API in the name. So I like the prefix “Jakarta API for …”

— Santiago

On Apr 7, 2019, at 1:53 AM, Christian Kaltepoth notifications@github.com wrote:

IMO having API in the name actually adds value, because it makes the specification nature clearer. Or do you think that having Jakarta in the name is sufficient for people to know it is about an API and not an implementation?

I'm not sure if the name must me very short, because people will call it JAX-RS anyway :-)

What about the pattern:

Jakarta {something} API

That's shorter than the "Jakarta API for ..." scheme. It would create names like:

Jakarta Persistence API Jakarta Servlet API (see Greg's proposal on the ee4j-pmc list) Jakarta RESTful Web Services API ... Just my 2 cents :-)

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arjantijms commented 5 years ago

I don’t like only JAX-RS having “api for” in its name. I believe in some level of consistency. Either all spec projects should have this, or none should.

arjantijms commented 5 years ago

@chkal

IMO having API in the name actually adds value,

Just wondering, but MVC doesn't have API in its name, does it?

chkal commented 5 years ago

No, it doesn't. But having something like "Jakarta Model-View-Controler API" in the future would be fine for me.

arjantijms commented 5 years ago

No, it doesn't. But having something like "Jakarta Model-View-Controler API" in the future would be fine for me.

Really "Jakarta Model-View-Controler API" and not "Jakarta API for Model-View-Controler"?

chkal commented 5 years ago

I would prefer

Jakarta {Something} API

over

Jakarta API for {Something}

But I guess that's mostly a matter of taste.

arjantijms commented 5 years ago

@chkal I hear you, but I just wonder if not "Jakarta" signals that it's an API project, since all Jakarta projects are API projects if I'm not mistaken. Implementations use names like GlassFish, TomEE, and what have you.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@arjantijms No, the name "Jakarta" is not enough, as least people in the user community actually know that it only contains APIs. Even the Jakarta EE web site points to implementing products: Just press the "products" button and you will see the list of all EE4J products, like Jersey! And not even the FAQ restricts the name to "API only"! ;-(

edit: [Projects] button not [Products] button

arjantijms commented 5 years ago

@mkarg Sorry, which "products" button is that?

All EE4J projects is something else I think. EE4J is not Jakarta EE.

My take on it is that all API projects are renamed to "Jakarta *" projects, obviously Jersey is not a Jakarta project itself, but an implementation of Jakarta REST.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@arjantijms Go to the official Jakarta EE web site then click the yellow button [Projects] in the middle of that page. You will be navigated to the EE4J web site, so people will definitively think it is the same. As Jersey is found on that page, people definitively will think that Jersey is a Jakarta project.

arjantijms commented 5 years ago

then click the yellow button [Projects

Aha okay, projects, I was looking for products.

That should be easy enough to fix though. If all projects in the ee4j repo that are APIs start with "jakarta" it should be a beginning. FAQs and other info pages can clarify this further.

E.g.

bshannon commented 5 years ago

I'm not so worried about distinguishing API from implementation in the "short names" of these projects, but I would expect the full names to be like:

which pretty clearly distinguishes which is API/spec and which is implementation.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@bshannon Maybe for an Eclipse Member, but I doubt the average Joe could separate it.

bshannon commented 5 years ago

I'm not sure the average Joe cares about the difference between API and implementation. :-)

When the average Joe needs to decide between downloading Apache this, JBoss that, or Eclipse whatever, I think the difference will be clear enough. Downloading Jakarta REST alone won't be good for much.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

As a JUG leader I can tell you: Be sure, the average Joe does! There are many out there who only care for a single API. Besides the big hypes people still build applications around just JPA or just JAX-RS, but still want to be independent of a particular products like Jersey.

chkal commented 5 years ago

Maybe we should continue this discussion on the jakarta.ee-community list? IMO consistency between all specs is actually the most important aspect regarding the naming.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@chkal Actually I do not see what actual, measurable benefit naming consistency would bring, or what actual, measurable drawback missing consistency of names would bring. Also Wayne said it is up to the projects to decide. So no, bold -1 for moving the discussion of our name to a different community.

spericas commented 5 years ago

On Apr 11, 2019, at 3:33 AM, Christian Kaltepoth notifications@github.com wrote:

Maybe we should continue this discussion on the jakarta.ee-community list? IMO consistency between all specs is actually the most important aspect regarding the naming.

+1

— Santiago

spericas commented 5 years ago

After reading @bshannon's comment, I agree we can drop "API". In fact, the proposed "Jakarta RESTful Web Services" seems perfectly fine to me.

m-reza-rahman commented 5 years ago

+1. It's a good name.

On 4/26/2019 3:36 PM, Santiago Pericasgeertsen wrote:

After reading @bshannon https://github.com/bshannon's comment, I agree we can drop "API". In fact, the proposed "Jakarta RESTful Web Services" seems perfectly fine to me.

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chkal commented 5 years ago

I'm +0 for "Jakarta RESTful Web Services". I definitely see value in keeping "API" in the name for the reasons mentioned above, but I would also be fine with this name if everyone likes it.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

I'm personally -1 for dropping the word "API", due to the reason already mentioned. But I do not want to stand in the way if the absolute majority of all committers thinks that dropping "API" is really better than keeping it. So my official vote is -0.

@eclipse-ee4j/eclipse-jaxrs I would like to ask all committers to actively participate in this discussion.

spericas commented 5 years ago

So if I understand the discussion and voting so far, the candidates are:

[1] Jakarta RESTful Web Services [2] Jakarta API for RESTful Web Services

I'm honestly fine with either one. OTOH, if JAX-RS ends up being the only project using "API", that would be odd IMO.

mkarg commented 5 years ago

I don't have a problem with unaligned names, as we lived with that for many years at the JCP and nobody cared. In the end, Java EE always just was an umbrella around otherwise standalone and often pre-existing APIs; it seems we sometimes forget that or the EF wants to turn that view upside down (JAX-RS only being a chapter Jakarte EE).

Anyways, I think we possibly discuss the wrong thing at all: The request is to change the project name, not the API, apparently. I am +1 for the proposed project name (without the word "API"), I just want to keep the word API in the API's name (in the sense of "The project Eclipse Jakarta RESTful Web Services provides the specification of the Jakarta API for RESTful Web Services").

spericas commented 5 years ago

@mkarg Ok, then there are no objections (so far) for "Jakarta RESTful Web Services".

andymc12 commented 5 years ago

+1 for [1] Jakarta RESTful Web Services - I prefer to be consistent with the other projects. But I don't really have a strong preference either way.

arjantijms commented 5 years ago

Although I'm fine with "Jakarta RESTful Web Services", I think the previously proposed "Jakarta REST" might be even better.

After all, isn't "Web Services" redundant? Do we also have "RESTfull [something else]"?

On the other hand, I do appreciate we have "SOAP Web Services" as well, although we don't have quite that name.

So for me:

sdaschner commented 5 years ago

My 2ct's:

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@eclipse-ee4j/eclipse-jaxrs As the trademark negotiations failed, I'd like to kindly ask all JAX-RS committers to cast the final vote in this issue ASAP, so we can proceed with the needed renaming. This discussion is open for 29 days already, but it is still active, so I'd like to propose that we do the final count in one week (Saturday Morning).

spericas commented 5 years ago

@mkarg Checking with you since you're assigned to the issue. I believe we should declare the winner to be "Jakarta RESTful Web Services" and close the issue.

jansupol commented 5 years ago

+1 for Jakarta RESTful Web Services

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@spericas I have checked all the votes again and agree that there is a slight preference for "Jakarta RESTful Web Services". So I'd say I will close this issue hereby with that result. If somebody thinks that we identified the false winner, then please feel free to comment.

chkal commented 5 years ago

What's the final decision regarding the acronyms? Is it explicitly forbidden to use the acronym JAX-RS?

mkarg commented 5 years ago

@chkal That would be really sad, and frankly I doubt that the user community actually would care about such a constraint and simply continue to use the acronym, even if we would abstaint. JAX-RS is not a registered trademark nor mentioned in the trademarks file Oracle provided. So I doubt that there is really a legal way to prevent us using the acronym of "Jakarta Api for Xxml Restful web Service". But to be true, I expect some people will chime in soon saying that it is forbidden, just out of fear.

chkal commented 5 years ago

@mkarg I absolutely agree on everything you wrote. I'm just curious what the official response regarding this is from the EF/PMC/etc.