Metadata entry clarity

[Justinmac84]

Hi,

As someone for whom metadata entry is an essential part of work and given that there are few accessible means to enter it of which I am aware, I very much appreciate the work that's been done to make the metadata entry process in Reaper as accessible as possible. In light of the discussion regarding intuitiveness and clarity, particularly for new users, I wondered if there was any way to let inexperienced users know that they need to press control enter on the field they want to edit.

Even though I knew it for a while, I clean forgot and had to be reminded on the Reaper list and someone else has just tried all the usual tricks and was unable to work out how to do it without help.

I assume that simulated mouse clicks were impractical in this situation and perhaps this is a Coccos issue anyway, but I wondered if it's possible to build tool tips into OSARA so that hovering on any of the metadata fields would instruct people to press control enter to invoke, much in the same way as the prefs dialogue now has accessible tool tips?

Just thought I'd throw the question out there of whether there's anything that can be done to point people in the right direction,

Justin

[ptorpey]

Is there a reason Cockos implemented this approach to entering data into a series of edit fields? Seems like the standard method would be to have the user tab to successive edit fields and simply start typing in order to enter data. If this hasn’t been brought up with Cockos, perhaps it could be, unless there is some other logic behind this that isn’t evident.

--Pete

From: Justinmac84 @.> Sent: Saturday, November 6, 2021 9:59 AM To: jcsteh/osara @.> Cc: Subscribed @.***> Subject: [jcsteh/osara] Metadata entry clarity (Issue #591)

Hi,

As someone for whom metadata entry is an essential part of work and given that there are few accessible means to enter it of which I am aware, I very much appreciate the work that's been done to make the metadata entry process in Reaper as accessible as possible. In light of the discussion regarding intuitiveness and clarity, particularly for new users, I wondered if there was any way to let inexperienced users know that they need to press control enter on the field they want to edit.

Even though I knew it for a while, I clean forgot and had to be reminded on the Reaper list and someone else has just tried all the usual tricks and was unable to work out how to do it without help.

I assume that simulated mouse clicks were impractical in this situation and perhaps this is a Coccos issue anyway, but I wondered if it's possible to build tool tips into OSARA so that hovering on any of the metadata fields would instruct people to press control enter to invoke, much in the same way as the prefs dialogue now has accessible tool tips?

Just thought I'd throw the question out there of whether there's anything that can be done to point people in the right direction,

Justin

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[pitermach]

It's actually possible to tab from field to field to edit them, but you need to click into one of them first - though the problem is that they aren't labeled so moving through them this way isn't particularly blind friendly at the moment. In general though, this approach of having the fields in a list rather than having a bunch of edit fields off the bat has advantages even for us. There's at least 30 or 40 tags you can enter, so having them in a list lets you use first letter navigation to find the one you need. There are also other important controls in that dialog to select what tagging scheme you want to work with and to select wildcards, so not having your tab order being cluttered by tons of edit fields is useful.

More generally, it'd be good for Cockos to improve the accessibility of that dialog on their end. I sent them an email a few weeks ago with a couple of accessibility bug reports mainly to do with the Mac version of Reaper, and one of the things I brought up was this issue with clicking into a metadata field to edit it since the CTRL+Enter command is a windows only hack, and more seriously even if you click into one VoiceOver doesn't see the edit field so you have no feedback when typing and can't review what you entered with the arrow keys. I didn't get any response but hopefully they put it on their issue list

[MatejGolian]

@ptorpey, the way I see it, I like the fact that they put all the available fields inside a list view, because one can use first-letter navigation to get to a particular tag more quickly. We'd likely lose that ability had they used some other UI instead. But that CTRL + Enter hotkey caught me off-guard. :-)

[Lo-lo78]

Hi Justin, Foobar is perfect for metadata ... Cheers!

[ScottChesworth]

The accessibility refinements I'd typically request here around initial release of a new feature got overshadowed by someone's unconstructive, angry brand of what they laughably call advocacy. I haven't revisited it since other than having a brief conversation to clarify that that person's views and tone don't represent OSARA or the overwhelming majority of our users. I felt that was necessary seeing as it was made clear that they weren't going to defuse anything for themselves. It's been long enough that it can be raised again, but if that's gonna reach Cockos via me, then it's gonna have to wait a wee while. @jcsteh and I have currently got Justin beavering away at some deeper level stuff that's going to solidify how we can report in the MIDI Event List. Once that work is done, I'm happy to raise this. Of course, it's an open shop. If anyone else wants to take it to Cockos in the meantime, feel free. Just don't be an entitled dickhead about it. :)

[ptorpey]

Still, even with a list box, I would think that one should be able to navigate to an item in the list, hit tab, and immediately be in the edit field associated with that list item and be able to enter text.

--Pete

From: MatejGolian @.> Sent: Saturday, November 6, 2021 10:49 AM To: jcsteh/osara @.> Cc: ptorpey @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [jcsteh/osara] Metadata entry clarity (Issue #591)

@ptorpey https://github.com/ptorpey , the way I see it, I like the fact that they put all the available fields inside a list view, because one can use first-letter navigation to get to a particular tag more quickly. We'd likely lose that ability had they used some other UI instead. But that CTRL + Enter hotkey caught me off-guard. :-)

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[pitermach]

@ptorpey I can't see the screen, but I'm guessing that there isn't an edit field anywhere unless you go to edit a field. Sighted people probably just see the list of metadata, then if they double-click on the value column that then causes the cursor to pop up letting them know they can start typing. Then if they tab while the cursor is visible it moves down to the next field.

This behavior is also like this in some other apps. Foobar 2000 that someone mentioned earlier also has a metadata dialog, which is quite similar to Reaper's with a list of fields. If you tab off the list then you'll just move to other controls, unless you press F2 to edit something. If you then tab, the focus will move to the next metadata field which will be editable.

[jcsteh]

A few things:

1. I'm not sure what you mean by "simulated mouse clicks were impractical in this situation". That's exactly what OSARA does when you press control+enter.
2. I'm not a fan of help messages like this. Yes, we want to help inexperienced users. On the other hand, it's a very slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? In the piano roll, should we say things like "press left and right arrows to move through chords, up and down arrows to move through notes in a chord"? In the track view, should we say "press the applications key to access the first context menu, control+applications key to access the second context menu, ..."? All of these things aren't entirely standard behaviour. And after you've heard the message once, hearing it again and again would just get annoying, even though you can silence it. Preferences is a bit different. Changing preferences isn't a daily occurrence, at least for most users.
3. I see this isn't currently documented in the readme. My bad. That seems like the right fix here. Of course, a lot of people don't read the readme, but to an extent, that's on them.
4. As has been pointed out already, tabbing to the text box isn't reasonable or feasible here. It doesn't exist at all until the user double clicks a cell, just as the rename edit field doesn't exist in File Explorer until the user presses f2.
5. foobar2000 metadata has been mentioned here. The question is: would f2 be any more intuitive for most users? At least it's slightly more standard I guess.
6. The reason OSARA maps this to control+enter instead of f2 is that control+enter is more general than editing a text box. It performs an action for any item in a ListView control (technically, it double clicks). For example, in the MIDI devices list in Preferences, it opens the MIDI device dialog. F2 feels kinda wrong in that case. Still, if the general consensus is that f2 is better than control+enter even there, it's a fairly easy change. I guess I could support both; I don't think that would do any harm, since f2 isn't bound to anything else there and nor is control+enter.

[ptorpey]

1. I'm not sure what you mean by "simulated mouse clicks were impractical in this situation". That's exactly what OSARA does when you press control+enter.

[PT] Will this work if the user just does a mouse click with their screen reader? For this to work I guess the cursor has to follow focus. In that case one wouldn’t need a special hotkey. Too bad just hitting enter doesn’t work.

2. I'm not a fan of help messages like this. Yes, we want to help inexperienced users. On the other hand, it's a very slippery slope. Where do you draw the line?

[PT] Agree

3. I see this isn't currently documented in the readme.

[PT] I didn’t know there was a ReadMe to Osara. Are you talking about the documentation on the Osara web site or is there some ReadMe that is accessed via Osara itself?

4. As has been pointed out already, tabbing to the text box isn't reasonable or feasible here. It doesn't exist at all until the user double clicks a cell

[PT] Didn’t know that. Good point.

--Pete

[Lo-lo78]

Hi guys, sorry, what's the problem; I had never tried using metadata on Reaper and they are very manageable. Presets can be saved, they can be deleted, there is a combo box that filters the type of tags; The window is very practical and intuitive. There are situations on Reaper that are much more complicated than this metadata window. What would a blind man not be able to do? Ctrl + enter? Is this a joke? Fantastic Reaper!

[ScottChesworth]

what's the problem;

The problem is that right now, our workaround only applies to Windows. A secondary issue is that a surprising amount of users haven't intuitively found Control+Enter, which would suggest perhaps that keystroke needs to be changed. So nope, not a joke.

[ScottChesworth]

[PT] Will this work if the user just does a mouse click with their screen reader?

Yeah, as Jamie said, That's exactly what OSARA does when you press control+enter. If you want to do it manually:

1. Choose entry in list box.
2. Route mouse pointer.
3. Simulate double left-click.
4. Type data.
5. Hit Enter to save the data you've typed and return to the list box (or Escape to cancel if you suddenly realize that "Spencer and the Spangly Space-age Spatulas" isn't the best band name you can come up with).

[Lo-lo78]

Ok, I didn't know it didn't work the same on MAC. Thanks Scott!

[jcsteh]

So, getting back to my question, would changing this to f2 make it any better? Is this one of the "usual tricks" most people would try? Justin?

[ScottChesworth]

Based on the usage I observe here, in situ, the order of intuition is:

1. Enter.
2. Applications key, but then a menu is expected, not an edit field.
3. I'm pretty sure that only tech-savvy users would try F2 here. F2 makes zero sense in the MIDI Devices list box though.

Given that none of the above debate seems conclusive and the UX could still use improvement for Mac users, I think this one should just go via Cockos. I'd ask them to support hitting Enter as the catchall solution on both platforms.

[pitermach]

For what it's worth, enter is as standardized as it gets on Mac as well since it's the rename key in Finder and other file managers, so I agree that if we were to ask Cockos to implement this Enter would make the most sense.

[jcsteh]

Technically, I could change this to enter. The problem I have with that is that in a dialog, enter has always meant "press the default button"; e.g. the OK button. Overriding enter would violate that rule. I'm actually surprised anyone tries enter for that reason.

[RichCaloggero]

1. I think help messages are not the right fix in 99% of cases. However, maybe in less often used places like this, a quick announcement might be helpful. You could announce it only when the list gains focus. Perhaps you could also not announce if previously focused field is an edit field; this would prevent the announcement from happening each time you fill in a field and return to the list.
2. Seems to be the first list would be better expressed as a tree control. Took me a while to figure out why, say, "musical" was repeated three times, etc. That seems like a cockos fix however, and probably not easy.
3. Since we have dialogs that have no default, like the routing dialog (via the "i" key when on a track), enter might be the right choice here.