New spell ideas

[jeremygurr]

Okay since we're getting rid of the haste spell, I'd like to add a spell or two to the charm school. Mostly I had trained charms in the past for the haste spell, it was the main draw for me.

I like the idea of a stamina boosting buff mentioned earlier, maybe something that saves 25-75% of stamina costs (based on spellpower). Maybe it could be called Endurance, and be a level 4 charms spell.

Some more ideas for potential spells:

Level 9 Charms / Translocation spell: Astral Projection:

You leave your body. Time stops. You can move around anywhere within a certain distance from your body, detemined by spellpower. At low spellpower you can only move within a radius of 16 or so from your body. At medium spellpower you can cover the whole floor. At high spellpower you can travel to different floors or even pass through branch portals. But you can't pass through walls or doors and can't interact with your environment, even to open a door. No monsters become aware of you or can interact with you in any way. With this alone you could do some handy reconnaissance to detemine how bad of a situation you really are in, even in the middle of a heated battle.

But wait, there's more. This is a level 9 spell, so it's got to be freaking awesome. Although you can't attack a creature physically, you can cast as many spells as you have mp for. But there's a catch. Since time is stopped, the spells don't actually execute until the player is pulled back to their body and time resumes. Then they all execute at the same time, effectively requiring 0 time. It's like a super haste, but only for spellcasting. Also, casting spells in the astral plane is a bit more taxing, so it requires twice the normal mp to cast a spell.

Another idea I had seemed pretty fun, but I realized later it wasn't a charms spell, but more of a translocations one. But still I think it's pretty cool so I'll include it also:

Level 9 Translocation spell: Dimensional Split:

Reality is split in half, and an alternate universe is formed. Half of the monsters on the current floor are immediately transported to the alternate universe. The player can then take care of the remaining monsters or just have a better chance of running away. A short time later, the alternate collapses and monsters return to the same places they occupied before the spell was cast. This may be cast a second time to send half of the monsters remaining to the alternate world. But when it collapses, all will come back at the same time.

[Sandman25DCSS]

I think crawl goes into wrong direction, too many good spells are low level (Blink, Song of Slaying, Spectral Weapon, Animate Dead, Passage of Golubria etc.), probably we can replace Haste with some other level 6 spell, nobody is going to train for level 9 spell if there is no good level 5-7 spell.

Those level 9 spells are fun but probably broken, I can imagine safely getting a rune without fighting which is bad IMHO.

[jeremygurr]

I'm not sure what you mean by safely getting a rune without fighting. I assuming you are referring to the dimensional split one? It's true if you could cast it 3 times in a row, you'd have 1/8 of the monsters to deal with, but that would probably give you a mutation from contamination, and by the time you got to the rune, the monsters will have all returned, fully surrounding you. We can calibrate it so that it wouldn't be very effective as a burglary tool, just a way to soften up a bunch of bad guys or to provide an easier escape. It's the same idea as luring to split up a large group, just in spell form.

As far as the astral projection one, you don't avoid any fighting with that one, you just basically get to fire off all of your spells your mp can afford in a single turn, instead of taking say 10 turns or so to empty your mp.

[jeremygurr]

Yeah you are right though that we need more mid level spells.

[yrmvgh]

Warp to Cloud (mostly for djinn, but also useful for dith folk, qaz folk, conjurers, and turds with a Fog scroll)

Lightning Leash air/hex root & DoT - could be icy instead

a higher level spell that staples vampiric draining onto cause fear

meld into floor earth/trmt

gimme some breathing room air

contagious flames fire

shaft monster earth

[yrmvgh]

In general, stapling two spells together should work pretty well for filling up the extremely underrepresented schools (anything that's not Conj) and the dearth of level 5+ spells. It's not the most exciting idea in the world but it helps with turn efficiency, tedium reduction, and you can add a twist to the stapled spells. Like maybe "Song of Golubria" that generates a fresh shroud of golubria every time you get a kill, plus the usual slaying bonus.

[G0rg0]

Bring back Singularity! (level 9 tloc spell) It was "too powerful" but I bet it could be tweaked.

Mid level charm spell, maybe something like mara's duplication spell? You generate a couple copies of yourself, they could range from just a distraction to maybe some weak attacks at higher power?

[Sandman25DCSS]

I'm not sure what you mean by safely getting a rune without fighting. I assuming you are referring to the dimensional split one? It's true if you could cast it 3 times in a row, you'd have 1/8 of the monsters to deal with, but that would probably give you a mutation from contamination, and by the time you got to the rune, the monsters will have all returned, fully surrounding you. We can calibrate it so that it wouldn't be very effective as a burglary tool, just a way to soften up a bunch of bad guys or to provide an easier escape. It's the same idea as luring to split up a large group, just in spell form.

As of Astral Projection, you can land right on rune, read tele and pick it up. As of Dimensional Split, I assumed the monsters should be missing during many turns, otherwise it should not be level 9 spell. And if they are missing many turns I can just walk and get the rune. Many extended runes are guarded by 1-3 monsters.

[jeremygurr]

You can't pick up anything during astral projection, or read any scrolls. You have to return to your body first. Astral projection can only be used for getting new info or rapid firing spells.

Fair point with dimension split. Maybe runes would have a magic field around them that prevents any monsters within radius 10 of being pulled into the alternate dimension.

[Sandman25DCSS]

Then astral projection will cause player to slowly kill all monsters without being in danger, better than Death's Door.

There is Dispersal spell, it is similar to what you suggest but works on adjacent monsters only to not be OP.

[jeremygurr]

Yeah with astral projection all spells should still originate from where the player's body is, to avoid allowing them to take out monsters that can't see them. With that restriction, I don't see how a player could kill all monsters without being in danger. They basically get one power turn where they can empty their mp (at double mp cost), unleashing a lot of damage to be sure, but whatever monsters survive they have to deal with, without any mp. It doesn't feel different to me than a firestorm, which also takes out a bunch of monsters with one turn or tornado, except they don't leave the player without any magic. True a player may lay down 3 firestorms at once (if they had the 9+3x18 = 63 mp to support it), possibly clearing their los, but they still have to deal with whatever monsters are outside of los. Without this spell, they could fire off 3 firestorms using 3 turns instead of 1, but still end up with half of their mp left.

dispersal is similar to DS, which is a point against this idea. This would work independently of MR. It could be restricted to just one use at a time though, using it again would collapse the previous before splitting dimensions again. So you'd always have to deal with 1/2 of the enemies still, and runes and the orb have a dimensional stability field around them which prevents nearby monsters from being pulled away. It's also similar to how mass confusion (is that still around?) basically cuts your enemies in LOS in half or less, or even a use of firestorm takes out half of the screen. The difference is that you still have to deal with the rest of the enemies in the case of DS in most situations. You've just delayed it.

Maybe to make it a bit more interesting and less OP: during a dimensional split, taking any stairs or portal would instead teleport you to a random position in the same level, because of how the dimensional split slices through reality just for that one floor. So you can't escape the level while the DS is in effect. Of course then you'd just stand on the stairs and deactivate it and then immediately take the stairs. We could make the player teleport to a random place on the level when the dimensions collapse also, so they are still likely to have to deal with the other half of the monsters to some degree. That would limit it's use as an escape tactic, although there is still some value in being able to escape to a different part of the level even. And it produces free teleports if you happen to be near stairs.

[Sandman25DCSS]

There are suggestions of new level 9 spells pretty regularly on tavern and one of typical objections to level 9 spell is that it should not require any other spells to be great. So if astral projection requires conjuration spells to be useful, it should not be level 9. Yet making it lower level would make other spells like fire storm OP because they are "balanced" around Haste at most, not around being able to cast them 3 times instantly.

Unconditional removal of monsters (even temporary one) is OP and cannot be saved IMHO.

[jeremygurr]

I can see wanting to avoid level 9 spells that require other spells to be effective in a game where you don't have enough time to get another level 9 spell, but from what I hear people often get 2 or even 3 level 9 spells castable in extended. Providing an enhancer level 9 spell that would make any other a lot more cool seems like it would be a good thing. And it's multipurpose, since it can be used for reconnaissance even before you have any other spells to use with it. But realistically, how often are you going to have no spells that can be used with it by the time you can cast a 2 school level 9 spell? I can't see a single possible scenario where that would be an issue, even if it didn't have value on it's own.

Luring seems to be functionally the same to me as DS, since you are still dividing and conquering. Certainly not as powerful, but the same idea still, as is any other of a dozen tactics used to break groups up into smaller groups, like stairdancing does in vanilla, or teleporting others, or mass confusion, or darkness + luring, or tukimas dance, or banishment, or even summoning a horde of meatshields. All of these effectively reduce the number of enemies that the player must immediately deal with. Many of these are equally unconditional tactics. And none of them have the high cost that DS has.

[Sandman25DCSS]

To get 2 level 9 spells, you need to clear (mega)zigs, there is no enough XP in the game if you are just getting 15 runes and winning. Unless you are grinding pan/abyss/hell of course or just neglect defenses/weapon which is a bad idea. Astral Projection is Charms/Translocations, there are no damaging spells in those schools, at least those which can be useful late game and if I learn Tornado/Shatter, I just don't need to explore monsters, I can kill everything. Going for Bolt of Fire/Cold/Orb of Destruction makes Fire Storm/Glaciate more important and after them I would need to have 4 schools at 20+ which is almost crazy especially provided I could have Necromutation with lower investment instead (Transmutations/Necromancy don't overlap with Charms/Translocations). Also if I have Charms/Translocations I have CBlink.

Luring does not work great in CA fork and I like it. Also luring does not work well in extended even in vanilla crawl where there are many fast monsters like Tormentor or Hellion.

[jeremygurr]

Ok maybe it wouldn't work as an effective spell blaster then. Maybe we could allow the player to open doors so they basically have the ultimate recon power, limited only by distance from player and spellpower. That's still an immensely useful tool and a way for non-ash worshippers to be able to gather vital enemy data. I like having some level 9 spells that aren't just massive damage causers.

[FraterFugae]

Is there really any amount of reconnaissance power that can stack up to or be more worth it than a firestorm? You can already open doors from a distance with things like the Orb of Destruction, and if you want to see monsters without them seeing you, you can train your stealth skill. It's hard to add another level 9 spell because you progress through Crawl and solve all your problems by killing things. The elemental Lvl 9's mostly cover that already.

[jeremygurr]

A fair point. I think it could be a decent level 9 choice if it could also do spellcasting while projecting, but otherwise it should be a level 6.

There's a pretty big difference between opening a door at a distance, and being able to walk all around a floor to determine what kinds of danger you are facing with no risk whatsoever. That's a game changer.

Oh I thought of a way to make it more fun. Maybe as you are projecting the spell slowly unravels, faster with high fail rates. It warns you when it is halfway, and when it is getting close to failing. There is no limit to how far you can travel from your body. But once the spell ends, time resumes, but you are not brought back to your body. You must return to your body before you can take control of your character again. You must get there before it gets killed! So when you receive the halfway point message, safest bet is to head back to your body. This effectively limits how far away you can get, in a more fun / exciting way I think.

[Sandman25DCSS]

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Detect_Creatures http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Detect_Items

[G0rg0]

It could be a mapping scroll on steroids, just reveal the entire map and all traps/treasure/creatures.

[Sandman25DCSS]

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Detect_Traps

In case it is not clear, I am providing those links to show that those spells were very bad and thus were removed from crawl. If you want to see why they are bad, you can try ToME 4, I stopped playing it just because of similar abilities. Casting spell to detect nearby creatures, killing them, waiting for MP to regen, Casting spell to detect nearby creatures, killing them, waiting for MP to regen, Casting spell to detect nearby creatures, killing them, waiting for MP to regen and so on. Extremely time-consuming, boring and still optimal.

[jeremygurr]

Hmm, does scrying do the same thing? How is that kept from being tedious? I would guess the piety cost is sufficient that you couldn't just use it before every encounter.

I can see your point though and wouldn't want to make things more tedious. The contamination limiter would solve the problem here too :p

[Sandman25DCSS]

Scrying costs 2-3 piety and you don't just spam it, you activate it when you see some red faces. Contamination limiter would make it even more tedious since you would press 5 waiting for contamination to disappear (vanilla Haste works exactly this way, especially in Ziggurats where it is completely safe to wait)

[G0rg0]

Honestly, I think there is definitely room for new/reworked spells, but there are so many other things going on I'd rather see happen first.

[jeremygurr]

no it only disappears with experience gain. 5 wouldn't work.

[jeremygurr]

It isn't as high of a priority if I could find a way to save haste. I think the contamination thing would do it, but still working out the details. It would be interesting to see what the top interests for each person would be. I'll make an issue for it.

[yrmvgh]

I still desire Detect Items to return, to enable pacifist / sneaky play. No other divinations though, don't invalidate Ash. ;)

[yrmvgh]

I will continue to poke at attemting to make Blinkbolt work, I think the enums are fixed now for save compatibility!