What is the status of this project?

[kawshar]

What is the status of this project?

Hi leaders, I would like to know the decision about this initiative. Shall we continue or you guys decided to abandon this?

Try Demo: https://j4admintest.joomla.com/administrator/ ( hosted in Cloudaccess ) User: abaquzem Password: AtES4XWw

Find the unofficial build version below to test on your local server. Joomla_4.0.0-unofficial-khonsu-dev-Development-Full_Package.zip

Thank you

[brianteeman]

based on activity (or lack of) and your statements about not complying with the requirements that were set I assumed that you had abandoned it.

(personal statement)

[kawshar]

Not really. Not getting any clear instructions about what to do or what not to do. Feeling like we are trying to sell our premium products to Joomla. Also, slow approval of PR makes the development process slower.

[brianteeman]

well @marcodings is the project manager for this

[kawshar]

I know.

Btw, I have a question. Please tell me your honest opinion about this initiative. Do you think we should continue or you think we should stop?

If you think we should stop then let me know some points. That will be really helpful.

Thank you

[brianteeman]

My personal opinion has always been that if this template would work along side the current template and offers at least the same features and the same level of accessibility then it has value

[kawshar]

Well, that's not actually a lot of work. It may take couple of days to fix. But, what is the point to keep backward compatibility with Atum? Shipping this template with Atum? Is not it gonna make extension developers' lives disaster?

[brianteeman]

I seriously doubt your time estimates to achieve that based on my observations of the changes here.

Extension devs lives will be a disaster if there are two templates that are not compatible with each other.

It will be harder to maintain two templates as we have seen with hathor and isis but that was mainly because they were not really compatible with each other

[kawshar]

Did not we finish the initiative on time? Did you release the first beta so far? We had some accessibility issues, but we could fix them. However, I would like to know the decision.

[brianteeman]

Did not we finish the initiative on time?

Depends on your definition of finished. From my perspective it is not finished as it didnt meet the requirements.

[kawshar]

We finished the initial development. Atum also did not meet the requirements. It's still not accessible, has a lot of UX issues and UI is really outdated. Look, I am not here to debate with you. What I wanted to know the final thought. If you think this is a good initiative then we will work hard to meet the requirements. But, if you guys think that it's garbage then we will stop putting our efforts and will focus on our daily basis projects.

@marcodings please check this.

Thanks

[brianteeman]

As for accessibility - it is compliant in all but about 3 extreme edge cases. If you know of any others then please let me know

[kawshar]

You guys helped that directly. That's why it's accessible. If you guys just lend a small helping hand, we could get it done in no time.

However, I am waiting for @marcodings reply.

[brianteeman]

I was referring to the accessibility of atum and not this template which is a long long way from being accessible

[kawshar]

Got it. You are awesome.

[kawshar]

I have checked the Atum template again by seeing your confidence. We are in real trouble. I wish Joomla 4 never be a reality with Atum. In fact, Joomla 3 is at least 5 years ahead in terms of UX & modern design. God help us.

[brianteeman]

I am not a designer. I only cared about the accessibility. I have never had an issue with you providing an alternative as long as it satisfied the requirements

[kawshar]

I care about design. People care about design. Great software should have an excellent combination of UX, design and codebase. Joomla 4 codebase is amazing but the design literally is a big disaster. The 2nd most popular CMS in the world should have a competitive interface rather than a totally unprofessional UI.

[imarklee]

Agreed with the points brought up by @brianteeman and @kawshar and I think if the new admin template is able to comply with the accessibility and being compatible, it would be awesome.

In my opinion, before anyone dives in any further, there should at least be clear directions from Joomla as to whether this template is going to make the cut or not.

[b2z]

15% of the world’s population have a recognized disability. Don't make me wrong, I do not say we should not make a11y product. I want to say that the users without disability does not deserve such template like Atum. All efforts are on a11y, but what about the avarage user?

Please, we want something like this https://magazine.joomla.org/issues/issue-nov-2017/item/3289-episode-iv-a-new-user-interface-for-the-joomla-backend

Fresh and modern look. Please think about the avarage user also.

@brianteeman if here all a11y will be fixed why not to drop Atum? It's ugly. Sorry, but it's true.

@kawshar thank you for your job and making Joomla breathe again. Do not give up. You put a lot of efforts in this template. From your side is it possible make Atum look like your template? What's the challenge?

[Hackwar]

@b2z Sorry, but do you think we are all stupid? Do you think we are idiots, who worked on Atum? We worked from the design that you linked and we started with a similar design like Khonsu and guess what? Those designs look nice, but don't actually work. I've invested dozens of hours into features that we later had to scrap, because they are actually as usefull as a noose around your neck. Believe it or not, but Atum is actually a pretty streamlined template with productivity in mind and not just some flashy colors. Atum doesn't look like it does because of a11y, but because it would be a lot less useable otherwise. Likewise with Khonsu. The original design had a split menu system with some items at the top and then the submenu to the side. Then the stuff went all to the side. And then all of that got dropped in favour of the menu system that we have in Atum. Why? Because it would have been horrible the way it was designed for Khonsu.

[brianteeman]

@b2z It was not me that insisted this must be accessible. It was a requirement set by the production department.

Atum doesn't look like it does because of a11y, but because it would be a lot less useable otherwise.

80% of the work I have done to make atum accessible is not even visible and had no impact on the design

[b2z]

@Hackwar no I do not think that you are idiots. Please be more polite.

I know what is to be a volunteer and how it looks to collaborate. I spend many hours on jissues development. And still investing my free time spreading the Joomla love in Russian community. And thank you for spending your time on Joomla.

Those designs look nice, but don't actually work

Is it your personal opinion? Where are the public discussion or something? I just want to understand as everyone else, why not this template, but Atum? Why not to ask public, making some kind of survey? Avarage user does not spent it's time on GitHub. But when @kawshar make his proposal of alternative design in Facebook there were so many positive reactions. This is where avarage user lives - in social media. Ask them what do they like best?

@brianteeman please do not make it personal. I didn't want to feel you so.

If a11y is not a reason, what's the challenge to make Atum not so ugly?

[zikkuratvk]

I agree with @b2z. What you want to use as a basic template is a few steps back in terms of design and usability.

When they introduced the new admin panel concept, I really hoped that maybe they would accept it. But now I understand that the interests of a minority can be put above the interests of the entire community.

This is very sad when, for the sake of features, which should be decided by third-party extansion or taken into account on the basis of the appropriateness of the expended resources, they are ready to destroy ui for all users.

[micker]

@b2z think about this gouvernent site need to be accessible in many country it a law ... say joomla is a11y isn't only for 15% is all person ! joomla traslation "is for all" ... we can't say this and doing a gutherberg editor ...lol the majority need to understand this to adapt they comportement ... it not to 15% to adapt it ... i realy think a11y is important feature... not cool feature but ethical ... joomla can participate to change the web... not bling bling feauture ...

=> all designer at first try axe on your site, after try to navigate with a keyboard only, and try speech browser ... => after you can say a11y isn't a important goal

(sorry for my bad engish)

[brianteeman]

I will repeat that accessibility has not driven the design -

[zikkuratvk]

I will repeat that accessibility has not driven the design -

What influenced? Now it looks as if the interface was developed by a programmer, not a designer or a specialist in user interface.

[b2z]

@micker I do not say that it is not important. What I want to say, UI and design should not be under the line because of a11y.

And as @brianteeman already stated, a11y is not in charge. So what's the problem then? If a11y is not a reason, what's the challenge to make Atum not so ugly?

[brianteeman]

And as @brianteeman already stated, a11y is not in charge. So what's the problem then? If a11y is not a reason, what's the challenge to make Atum not so ugly?

Not exactly what I said. It has to be accessible but that doesnt mean you can not achieve beauty.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is also subject to cultural influences.

As for this template specifically. It is really simple. If they had done what they were asked to do (as published here in the readme) then there wouldnt be any issue.

Instead they chose to ignore that, delivered something that didnt work and then expect everyone else to fix it for them.

You only have to look at the 100+ open issues to see that. Heck code changes made have even prevented it from installing on my setup.

Finally the complete absence of @marcodings in managing and guiding this sub-project has completely killed it.

[kawshar]

@b2z The template is already accessible by color contrasts. But, maybe some keyboard navigations missing. Btw, we can make it 100% accessible with the help of the accessibility experts. But, we don't want to spend time and money on the uncertainty.

Please check the below accessibility report.

[zikkuratvk]

You only have to look at the 100+ open issues to see that. Heck code changes made have even prevented it from installing on my setup.

I may be wrong. But they are discussing what is interesting and why people are not indifferent.

[b2z]

@kawshar

But, we don't want to spend time and money on the uncertainty.

Fully agree with you. But now it's kinda bad situation: the state is unclear, there is no will to invest the to make it at least work without issues.

What I think we need public opinion on it, what's the best for avarage people, but not for some developers.

[brianteeman]

color contrast is a very minor accessibility issue.!!! If you think otherwise then that really is a good explanation why you broke so much

If you had not changed so much of the underlying code then you wouldnt have destroyed all the accessibility work that has taken place.

I did my part - I raised over 50 issues - the majority of which have been ignored.

I couldnt do any more because it wont even install any more #146

again I repeat these are my personal opinions - I have no say on the direction of joomla or the requirements for the template. They were set by the production department and given to this sub-team before they began. Of course no one expected it to be perfect on first go but it is clear from the actions and statements of this sub team that they never had any intention to even attempt to comply with those requirements.

[zikkuratvk]

@brianteeman Availability problem ?? Yes, Joomla 4 is impossible to use. I am a normal person with 100% vision, I want to close the tab with the admin panel after 2-3 minutes of use. You understand that normal people are also people and they have no problems with color perception.

If this is not clear to you, then Joomla 4 will be the latest version of Joomla, since no one else will be able to use it.

[Septdir]

I want to apologize in advance for my English, I want to write a lot, so I'll use Google translator.

I am not a designer, however I am developing extensions for joomla, and here is what I can say.

Recently I decided to start the component specifically for J4 and its current state is just deplorable, it's not so much the design that you can get used to if the main problem in usability atum is very necessary, it is just awful.

Simple examples. In J4, I liked the idea with dashboards, dashboard consists of two parts. quikcions that can only be added to com_modules and modules that can be added directly to the dashboard. I decided to test all this, and you know, when I needed to enter com_modules for the third time, I wanted to climb the wall. In joomla3, to get to com_modules, you had to click on the top menu and select the item you need, in j4 I need to go first to System Dashboard to find the modules there and only then I can do what I need. As a result, it is easier to bookmark the browser than to use it, and all work with modules is an integral part of the workflow.

The same applies to installing and updating extensions.

Now, for everything else, doing two separate templates is also not an option, because if they are not compatible (and they will not), then extension developers will do only one template.

But atum cannot be left in its current form. It is simply not comfortable, not to mention the gigantism and colors that make our eyes tired.

Moreover, leaving everything in this form, all extension developers will simply begin to make their own styles and designs for components, as a result, there will be no general design elements. And it will be like in joomla 3 "who is into the forest, who is by firewood"

I can give 2 advice to those who think that atum should stay in joomla4.

1. Work on it, create a site and administer it, well, say a couple of weeks, using only standard extensions.
2. Ask to do the same person far from web development, well, or at least a simple content manager and get feedback from him.

Understand correctly, I do not want to offend anyone, but the admin panel is a sore subject for joomla.

[brianteeman]

No point in debating anything. The absent, as usual, @marcodings is the one in charge - not me.

[zikkuratvk]

No point in debating anything. The absent, as usual, @marcodings is the one in charge - not me.

I just don’t understand why you are defending a frankly unsuccessful design. I would rather leave the Joomla 3 template than get the Atum. Even if you leave usability. I can’t look at it. I have normal vision.

[Hackwar]

@septdir are you sure you used any recent version of Joomla 4? Because the modules have been part of the content menu for half a year now. In any case, claiming that the template is bad because you don't agree with the menu structure is like saying the food is bad because you don't like the cutlery.

Is Atum perfect? No. Is it a horrible mess? No either. Is Khonsu perfect? No. Is it better than Atum? Hell no.

I didn't want to write in the discussion while I'm traveling, but the ignorance here and sole focus on good looks is staggering. Khonsu is missing key features like for example the dashboards. It has one dashboard and filled that up with nonsense, like a percent indicator of the updates. What does a percent number in this context mean? If you have 20 extensions and one has an update, does that mean that the site is 5% insecure? Or is the site still safe? Is a site with a vulnerable extension already 95% okay? Travel distances for your mouse in Khonsu are a maximum and you have to jump with your eyes all over the place. Focus points are missing everywhere. Customisation options which we introduced for Atum are missing.

@b2z yes, we made a mistake, we discussed most of the fixes to the design in german in the small team that actually did the work. Up till the point where that work was merged, no one have a flying f--- about that template and only afterwards came people forward and criticised everything. And only after that did @kawshar start his initiative. So to answer your question "why Atum?" Because it is ready. Because it has been ready half a year ago and doesn't eat up even more time from contributors.

To everyone: I get the feeling that nearly every participant in this discussion has looked at exactly just the initial dashboard of both templates for 20 seconds and that's it. Please do some real world testing (with a recent nightly build) like seeing up a small website, before going further.

[Septdir]

@Hackwar UPS Indeed, they have a submenu of content, however, the fact that I could not notice them also says a lot, because in wp I have no problems finding the right one in the side menu.

And yes, if the cutlery is not convenient for me, then instead of enjoying the meal I’ll just think about what’s not convenient for me and the impression of the meal will be spoiled, and even if the restaurant has food at the level of three Michelin stars, and I won’t come there anymore and leave the most negative reviews in Yelp

@Hackwar A good comparison by the way. Joomla, as was rightly noted, has an excellent code base, joomla is very flexible and functional. And to develop something for her is a pleasure. Unlike WP (sorry for the comparison, I understand that joomla and wp are completely different tools, but still), where the development of a functional is similar to bending a steel beam with bare hands. However, in terms of administration, people prefer WP because it is more convenient and understandable.

And if joomla4 comes out with the same appearance of the admin panel, then even more people will refuse to use Joomla. After all, a developer can write functionality on anything, and he may not be satisfied with the choice of cms, but the code is the code, he wrote it and continue to support it. And content managers and administrators will face inconvenience every day. Try writing code in an inconvenient ide for a couple of months and you will understand how these people feel.

And yes accessibility is also important to do all the same.

[zikkuratvk]

@Hackwar The problem is that using the Joomla 4 admin panel is not possible. The desire is one to close the tab and no longer open. If you do not understand this, then I am very sorry Joomla.

If you do not understand this, I am very sorry Joomla. I really hope that alternative solutions arise. Since ethics will not allow me to offer such a solution to the client.

[drmenzelit]

@zikkuratvk can you please explain what is so impossible to use in Joomla 4 admin panel? I'm curious about your experience, because I'm using Joomla 4 for an experimental website since one month and I have no problems. Yes, of course, it looks different and at the beginning I have to search for things, but it is not impossible... I had the same between Joomla 1.5 / 2.5 and 3.

I installed the Khonsu repository too. If I compare Atum and Khonsu side by side, I see differences. Khonsu is perhaps at some amount more appealing. But it is not only the appearence what is important here, but also the functionality and the code. At the moment I'm not able to compare this. I'm not a developer and I can't say which code is better.

Khonsu has problems with contrast (I'm not visually impaired, I only wear glasses) and the size of the fonts is too small in the installation screen. I didn't see it, if it is possible to change this.

I like the system dashboard on Atum. And that the modules are under Content, what is for me, more logical than under Extensions. I know, we did is that way more then 10 years long, but modules are part of content, so why not?

As Brian said "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". To decide which template should be part of the core only based on subjective beauty concepts is the wrong way.

It would be great if the two templates can coexist and the user can decide which one to use.

[zikkuratvk]

@drmenzelit

To begin with, I work with many systems and I am not confused by a new interface.

1. My head begins to hurt a sharp change in contrast. This effect was noted by many.

You think why the android does not include the mode for visually impaired by default. When I turn it on, my head also starts to hurt. And this is normal, since I do not have vision problems and I do not need hypercontarst and I do not need a sharp change of colors. This is very repulsive.

2. Usability issues. Well said about them @Septdir. Too many useless actions, this is a step backward compared to Joomla 3.

menu: I want two opened menu items. Such a menu structure involves fixing the expanded menus. Different behavior of the desktop and mobile menu.

3. Same content editing. When I showed the client a new media manager, they asked me and they developed this for several years? If it’s not clear, put a quantum manager - it was created by one person in a couple of months. And when you see after it, what Joomla 4 offers is disappointing. I gave just one example.

At the same time, they offer us broken compatibility, problems with migration. Do you think this does not upset people? It upsets me ... And others too. And everyone understands that nothing can be changed. If you are not from the right circle of people, your opinion and suggestions are not accepted.

[drmenzelit]

At the same time, they offer us broken compatibility, problems with migration.

But that has nothing to do with the admin template....

[zikkuratvk]

But that has nothing to do with the admin template....

I agree that it has nothing to do with the admin panel, but everything has a price. In this case, the price of switching to Joomla 4 is too high, but there is no advantage. Since I live in market conditions, for me this is an important factor.

[drmenzelit]

menu: I want two opened menu items.

In Khonsu also not possible...

[zikkuratvk]

You asked me what is not convenient for me at Atum. I answered you as the person who tried to work in Atum. If we talk about Khonsu, then there is the biggest plus that he does not repel me from the first minutes of work.

I specially put Joomla 4 nightly build for this discussion. And after I opened Atum, I had the first desire to close the browser. Why I already wrote, I do not like such a contrast and the constant flickering is annoying.

For example:

It takes a few minutes to move the cursor on the interface and is already starting to annoy.

Joomla 3. The same great contrast, but no annoyance due to other proportions and animations. No strain on the eyes.

Initial concept. My eyes rest when I look at him.

And we now see an approach when we are told that all Joomla users have vision problems, and this is not a disconnect feature.

[b2z]

It should be pleasant by default for avarage user and adjustable for disability. But not vice versa.

[Septdir]

It seems to me that it is worth voicing one very important idea. Of course, we can all come to terms and get used to the inconvenience or not beautiful design, but is that really right.

In a good interface, you don’t need to get used to anything or look for something, everything should initially be where it should be. Of course, joomla has very extensive functionality and creating an ideal interface is very difficult, but is it not possible?

And further. It is clear that management cannot spend money on hiring specialists and collecting data to create the perfect ui. But what prevents you from simply collecting feadback from ordinary users, not developers who will primarily look at the code and how it works, but most ordinary people.

Expand two demo sites, make a post in the social. networks and let people speak out.

And why not take all the best from both templates and create another one.

But most importantly, now is not the time for indecisive actions. I need the exact answer which template will be in joomla4 release. Me and my colleagues, this also needs to be known because if it is a terrible atum, then we need time to develop our control panel, otherwise we will lose customers.

[chmst]

@zikkuratvk My head begins to hurt with low contrast because then I cannot read the text. While you don't need or like sharp contrasts others need and or like it. But you can choose other colours. I choose monochrome because there are too many colours everywhere.

In general: everyone would be happy with an improvent of the design.

But do not mix here the template with the functions of J4.

[Septdir]

@chmst Without a good template, functions will not be of any use.
In addition, for honest for ordinary users j4 by and large does not bring anything new.

[PhocaCz]

Let's talk about the facts. The facts are that the Kawshar's template has generated a great response and mostly a very positive response in the Joomla! community. If you are not blind and deaf, you have seen the interest everywhere - in discussions, on social networks, etc.

Many people associate this template with the hope for a Joomla! project.

If the template has generated such a positive response from Joomla! community, we can be sure that it will also generate a positive response from other users.

Even if Atum remains the main admin template, it is total nonsense not to continue developing and finishing the Kawshar's template.

The project must support the completion of this template, as it will in any case be a very positive contribution to Joomla! project itself.

If we are talking about cases like this: https://github.com/joomla-projects/j4adminui/pull/74

Isn't it possible to cooperate here and for example to agree that this entry: btn-solid-primary is not the best and to change the outputs in Joomla! core. Etc. etc.

Isn't it possible to give Kawshar more useful information and cooperate. :bulb:

Kawshar is not a criminal, he just wants to help the project. Please keep that in mind. And the same on the other side. We must be grateful to all who participated in the Atum template, because otherwise there would be nothing.