Markdown to Bus Factor X

[Biromain]

Move to another issue #125 to stay clear.

[nibra]

I support this idea. It is not needed for the CDHM, but frees us from having to filter out the HTML for other channels than web.

[Biromain]

Yeah and we can make fix on generated like A11Y Fix. I just see one problem atm, it's about migration from older Joomla. We can:

• [ ] Convert existent html to markdown but content loose html properties like css classes etc.
• [ ] Make an db column like source_format with default value markdown and migrate old content with html format.

I don't know if atm on J!X we need to care about old Joomla technical debts or not.

[nibra]

I don't know if atm on J!X we need to care about old Joomla technical debts or not.

No, in the "core" J!X we don't have such restrictions (that's why we're doing the clean-base approach). Nevertheless, that migration has to work smoothly in the end - that's the duty of the J3Compatibility package. It should then deliver the original HTML for web and (maybe) strip for other channels.

[Fuzariane]

Migration from Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 2.5 was pretty hard for a lot of websites. By the way, a lot of them migrate to other CMS. Migration should not be such complicated.

I don't tell tha your ideas are not valuable but we need to focus on keep our community. ( i think )

[nibra]

@Fuzariane No reason to be afraid. We promised a one-click update from Joomla X-1 to Joomla X for the core, and we'll keep this promise. We'll also work hard for making the update a no-brainer at least for third party extensions, that follow the Joomla conventions.

[Hils]

"This J!X will never happen - dont waste your time on it." is there a link to where this has been discussed please? (original email in my mailbox but seems to have disappeared from here. Thanks.

[nibra]

@Hils I deleted that post, because a) it's not true, and b) it was not constructive.

[Hils]

Thank you Niels !

[brianteeman]

Thats why it will never happen because it is a solo effort with no contribution. You were supposed to have delivered a working proof within 2 months of JAB and yet nothing has happened yet https://volunteers.joomla.org/leadership/production-leadership-team/reports/245-plt-meeting-after-j-and-beyond-2016

On 21 September 2016 at 15:41, Hils notifications@github.com wrote:

Thank you Niels !

— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/issues/124#issuecomment-248600141, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPH8cxyy1coDKcoKoDA4ZrK6QA5yxe1ks5qsSYNgaJpZM4KCgFv .

Brian Teeman Co-founder Joomla! and OpenSourceMatters Inc. http://brian.teeman.net/

[nibra]

Thats why it will never happen

This attitude does more harm than everything else. You may of course have your oppinion, but saying it publicly as if it was a fact, is very bad behaviour. Stop that, please.

it is a solo effort with no contribution.

That's just not true. A lot of people are contributing.

You were supposed to have delivered a working proof within 2 months of JAB and yet nothing has happened yet

You can set a time frame, if you pay for it. Period. It takes the time it takes.

[brianteeman]

I didn't set the timeline - the plt set the timeline.

On 21 Sep 2016 4:01 p.m., "Niels Braczek" notifications@github.com wrote:

Thats why it will never happen

This attitude does more harm than everything else. You may of course have your oppinion, but saying it publicly as if it was a fact, is very bad behaviour. Stop that, please.

it is a solo effort with no contribution.

That's just not true. A lot of people are contributing.

You were supposed to have delivered a working proof within 2 months of JAB and yet nothing has happened yet

You can set a time frame, if you pay for it. Period. It takes the time it takes.

— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/issues/124#issuecomment-248604964, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPH8RPJ68acaSglsnscRmS4gRGmegsmks5qsSqNgaJpZM4KCgFv .

[Hils]

Always better to encourage a fellow Joomla! volunteer as opposed to castigating them. No doubt the PLT would speak to Niels privately if there is a problem.

[marcodings]

Brian, you are right we did not deliver the proof in the suggested timeframe. Not that its an excuse, there were unforeseen personal circumstances involved for Niels and as for timelines in general as PLT we still have a lot to learn overall On the positive side we have arrived at the proposed milestone, we are crossing the T's and dotting the i's and hope to have a factual discussion on it soon. With this milestone going forward we are in an exponentially better position to distribute the work, address the busfactor. However there is no point in doing that until there is "white smoke" from plt

[brianteeman]

Glad you acknowledged the bus factor

[nibra]

The bus factor is a known issue, and we don't try to hide it. I even mentioned it myself in my presentation on JoomlaDay Germany a couple of days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV9MZYDIr6Y .

[mbabker]

This will never become the heart of a Joomla release because it abandons everything everyone has put into the project, either as core or the various extensions and their frameworks. It's a major rewrite with zero compatibility for the sake of exercising egos. I fully agree with having a clean base to work from, but there's no way this can ever succeed if it builds from the notion of "screw the project's existing APIs and screw the existing PHP ecosystem that does everything we need and then some, we're gonna do it all our way". I honestly believe if you do a major rewrite and leave compatibility to each developer to figure out, or require a 1.5 legacy plugin style approach, we're all better off going to Concrete5 or OctoberCMS. That to me is a sign that backward compatibility is a complete after thought and is part of the reason why folks like Louis, Andrew, Johan, Sam, Ian, and others have been chased out of Joomla development, if not the project completely.

Instead of reinventing ORMs, or templating engines, or DBALs, or Symfony's HTTP Foundation, or PSR-6/7, we all (myself included) need to step back and answer why we can't consume a package off the shelf versus inventing yet another half hearted approach to something that's already done better by the PHP community. Like Brian likes to remind me of far too often, the masses really don't give a damn what Joomla looks like under the hood as long as they can click a few buttons in the UI and do what they need. So don't screw over those who provide those tools because there is a richer marketplace in other CMS' or building with proper framework stacks than there is with a hacked up version of Laravel, Doctrine, and Twig.

[nibra]

This will never become the heart of a Joomla release

You can't know that, and it is not up to you to make that decision.

it abandons everything everyone has put into the project

Maybe it looks like that atm. But it does not.

It's a major rewrite with zero compatibility for the sake of exercising egos.

No. It's a major rewrite with compatibility in mind for the sake of getting rid of ancient approaches and technical dept.

step back and answer why we can't consume a package off the shelf

We're not re-inventing the wheel anywhere. We use existing packages wherever possible, but keep them exchangeable - because you never know. That's how software is written today.

[brianteeman]

The bus factor has so far meant that you have missed two deadlines to show something - Jab and now jab + 2 months. We discussed the bus factor together at JAB and I still dont see anyone getting on board your bus. If you cannot engage the developers the you will never be able to produce anything to engage the userbase.

If a CMS has no developers or consumers then it is like a tree falling in an empty forest

On 21 September 2016 at 17:34, Niels Braczek notifications@github.com wrote:

This will never become the heart of a Joomla release

You can't know that, and it is not up to you to make that decision.

it abandons everything everyone has put into the project

Maybe it looks like that atm. But it does not.

It's a major rewrite with zero compatibility for the sake of exercising egos.

No. It's a major rewrite with compatibility in mind for the sake of getting rid of ancient approaches and technical dept.

step back and answer why we can't consume a package off the shelf

We're not re-inventing the wheel anywhere. We use existing packages wherever possible, but keep them exchangeable - because you never know. That's how software is written today.

— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/issues/124#issuecomment-248631304, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPH8W4VYqwwO6XITi80L_SZtO6Gq1VBks5qsUCJgaJpZM4KCgFv .

Brian Teeman Co-founder Joomla! and OpenSourceMatters Inc. http://brian.teeman.net/

[mbabker]

If it's a major rewrite with compatibility in mind why is the approach to write all the new things first THEN figure out how to proxy every existing API in?

Yes, some things are ancient and have loads of technical debt but there are ways to transition without being majorly disruptive. Look at how the DI container is integrated in the new 4.0 branch and how some of the core services start moving away from JFactory in favor of it. This is how you move a project as established as Joomla forward.

The only thing a clean slate is good for is as an incubator for ideas. It lets you design new API and architecture without the worry of technical debt but when it comes time to integrate it, you HAVE to drop it onto the existing app stack and transition things over. The compatibility layer as an afterthought approach is flawed, look at 1.5 and 2.5 and the major disruptive changes that alienated so many.

And you're right, I don't have a badge to make a decision anymore because after two years of putting a lot of pressure on myself to move things forward when everyone else was reluctant at best to do anything I burned out and made a life choice decision that I cannot put myself in a "lead" role in this project again because the stress, constant infighting, and lack of support aren't worth it. It destroyed my personal life.

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016, Niels Braczek notifications@github.com wrote:

This will never become the heart of a Joomla release

You can't know that, and it is not up to you to make that decision.

it abandons everything everyone has put into the project

Maybe it looks like that atm. But it does not.

It's a major rewrite with zero compatibility for the sake of exercising egos.

No. It's a major rewrite with compatibility in mind for the sake of getting rid of ancient approaches and technical dept.

step back and answer why we can't consume a package off the shelf

We're not re-inventing the wheel anywhere. We use existing packages wherever possible, but keep them exchangeable - because you never know. That's how software is written today.

— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/issues/124#issuecomment-248631304, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAWfofhBgQo-W-MN1Ggp0U6ym_anYQdOks5qsUCKgaJpZM4KCgFv .

[Fuzariane]

It sounds like i kicked in the nest (coup de pied dans la fourmillière) and that was not my purpose. Sorry for that. I really "love" Joomla and I'll never give up even if i can give a lot of my time into your project.

[brianteeman]

It is because you (and I) love joomla that I made the comment as I did not want you to waste your time with a fantasy

On 21 September 2016 at 18:32, ArianeWebdesign notifications@github.com wrote:

It sounds like i kicked in the nest (coup de pied dans la fourmillière) and that was not my purpose. Sorry for that. I really "love" Joomla and I'll never give up even if i can give a lot of my time into your project.

— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla-projects/joomla-pythagoras/issues/124#issuecomment-248649389, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPH8YzlvZsRFOD884pOAeeMx5uuG1bNks5qsU4BgaJpZM4KCgFv .

Brian Teeman Co-founder Joomla! and OpenSourceMatters Inc. http://brian.teeman.net/

[dneukirchen]

i cant find a single "markdown" in the last 20 comments...

JoomlaX will never get people "on bus", when some of the leading contributors start such an offtopic flamewar under a simple suggestion.

You might be right, but i dont think that THIS is the right place for it.

[mbabker]

We've all got different visions, nothing wrong with that. The problem is when some start declaring something as official when it's nothing more right now than an experiment. Even I've learned what battles to give up on.

[dgrammatiko]

This is interesting, let me grab some pop corn...

[brianteeman]

I only have pretzels