Atum re-design (phase 2)

[C-Lodder]

• [ ] Drag n drop (dashboard modules)
• [x] Ability to "unpublish" dashboard module via dropdown
• [ ] Select table column visibility
• [x] Fix up modal styling
• [ ] Add another toolbar group option. Some views have way too many buttons

[dgrammatiko]

I am thinking of a different approach for c-panel, more modular, more friendly for 3rd PD and for users. Here is the summary:

• 2 views (default and edit)
• Default view has a button at the end of the screen so users with right ACL can access it. Button redirects to edit page.
• Edit page has two containers: the left represents the modules to be displayed, right is a pool for all available modules.
• Another pair of containers: left represents the shortcuts, right is a pool of all available shortcuts.
• Drag and drop, enables/disables modules and shortcuts.
• Once a module is dragged into the left container a cog is available to adjust all the options of the module.
• This way the modules editor is useless for backend, simplifying even more the maintenance/configuration of Joomla

What do you think?

[ciar4n]

@dgt41 Personally I like the idea. Would you see potential in using this same UI for other areas of Joomla (eg. Menu Manager, Module Manager) in the future?

[dgrammatiko]

@ciar4n if the proposed idea works better than the current status quo, then probably we should apply it to more areas, but that needs to be build first and then tested...

[ghost]

I agree this is a good direction, we have more ideas for the dashboard as well in our project docs folder and some visualizations in progress.

I also I agree that developing customizable dashboard features could be a step towards customizable interface features. Ideally, interface customization would apply to many different areas and allow users to create their own working environments and workflows. That might be too much to tackle at first, but we can open the door to the possibility through the dashboard.

[jeckodevelopment]

i'm ok if we allow people to drag and customise the interface, but imho, it should be just a "layout thing".

[dgrammatiko]

@jeckodevelopment for most users it will be just a view (like the current cPanel, many boxes). For the administrator what I propose is a shift on how joomla manages things and ultimately a better way to create things by dragging and dropping. By the way, obviously I CAN implement what I'm proposing, it's not a wishlist...

@cpfeifer you'll be more helpful if you provide solid answers, comments like we have more ideas for the dashboard are just waste of time. If you have something solid bring it in, so we can evaluate it, if it's feasible by us to implement it, Joomla has all the API for that, what external assets might be needed etc...

[jeckodevelopment]

@dgt41 thank you Dimitris. Do you have some examples / mockup / scenario?

[ghost]

The outline is in progress and information is coming soon, an improved dashboard experience is one of our major areas of focus. Thank you for your patience.

[mbabker]

From your outline doc:

Creating links and feeds to JUX research surveys and user testing opportunities

You need to tread lightly with this. The vast majority of users really could care less about being "test dummies", they just want their software to work (there are 698 registered on the volunteer portal, there are 861,562 Joomla installations that have reported statistics since standing up that server, that's a less than .1% contribution rate if you use that alone). If these items are included in a blog feed that is streamed to a site's backend (in 3.x right now that's only the release announcement feed coming from .org, none of the other blog feeds from dev or community sites) then this can work but it should not be a separate notification channel.

The other thing I still don't fully agree with:

Tooltip “tour” help walkthough

If we really have to introduce a "getting started tour", we have made Joomla way too complex. We're already flirting with a high complexity interface and some of the ideas floating around don't improve that (this is a first evaluation taking a several word summary at face value, maybe the implementation changes my mind). The combination of tooltips within the UI as well as making efficient use of the help screen system should be where the majority of tutorial/help efforts go.

[jeckodevelopment]

Tooltip “tour” help walkthough

Against this.

[brianteeman]

I am very open to this idea of a walkthrough. It is something that was presented to the first joomla team but the tech didnt exist. I am in the process of implementing it on a site for a non-profit myself after seeing it in use on mailchimp.

On 23 November 2016 at 08:50, Luca Marzo notifications@github.com wrote:

Tooltip “tour” help walkthough

Against this.

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[C-Lodder]

It needs to be done. Joomla is already way too complex, which as you, know we're trying to deal with.

Having a tour guide for first time users is most definitely a nice to have feature, that will show them how to perform basic actions such as creating their first article, assigning it to a page, etc etc.

Just an example: http://bootstraptour.com/

Users will of course be able to quite the guide at any time.

[brianteeman]

Users will of course be able to quite the guide at any time.

They also need to be able to disable it permanently (something I've not done in my own implementation and will regret in the future)

[C-Lodder]

Yup, that was the plan. Only question is, do we want users to be able to view the guide again once they've dismissed it? Or from then on, will they have to refer to the docs or any other external resources for help? In the guides I've seen with services I use, I've never been able to start the guide again once dismissed completely

[brianteeman]

and it should be per user - which I also havent worked out

On 23 November 2016 at 09:51, Lodder notifications@github.com wrote:

Yup, that was the plan. Only question is, do we want users to be able to view the guide again once they've dismissed it? Or from then on, will they have to refer to the docs or any other external resources for help? In the guides I've seen with services I use, I've never been able to start the guide again once dismissed completely

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[C-Lodder]

@mbabker - would "per user" need an additional column in the #__users table called guide, which can take the value of 0 or 1, that determines whether or not the guide has been viewed?

[brianteeman]

Its a lot more than that - and I would suggest beyond the scope of this group at this time

On 23 November 2016 at 10:47, Lodder notifications@github.com wrote:

@mbabker https://github.com/mbabker - would "per user" need an additional column in the #__users table called guide, which can take the value of 0 or 1, that determines whether or not the guide has been viewed?

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[mbabker]

It is out of scope here, but if it's done right the plugin will have to have its own tracking table for users; this shouldn't alter the JUser object schema (which is what most of the database fields are) in any way.

[ghost]

The guide system is supported by many people. It's been in discussion since JAB and designs in progress. We can continue that discussion when we get there.

The vast majority of users really could care less about being "test dummies", they just want their software to work

I agree, but we're already doing that. The anonymous system data message is persistent across all screens and forces them to make a choice. The entire top of the top of the dashboard is consumed by these messages, if that isn't forcing our users to be test dummies I don't know what is.

If someone actually clicks on the post-installation messages that "require" their attention, they are taken to a screen that is a much better dashboard in my opinion. We could show these messages in some form on the dashboard along with the buttons, then there could be one more link that says "We want to know what you think about Joomla!". That's basically all I'm suggesting.

UX isn't complicated, it simply requires we look at these details through the eyes of our users. If we only look at this with a development perspective then we are only developing for developers. What works for developers doesn't always work for everyone else, we need to find some middle ground.

[mbabker]

The guide system is supported by many people. It's been in discussion since JAB and designs in progress. We can continue that discussion when we get there.

Well, speaking with my developer's hat on primarily, I feel like ANY software shipping with a "hello, let's help you get started" guide in 2016 or 2017 is immediately giving a sign to new users that either it has undergone drastic changes from the previous incarnation (which in the screenshots I've seen of this template, that doesn't seem to be the case thus far aside from moving the main navigation component from a top menu to a sidebar, not knowing what future plans hold I can't comment further) or it is a big red warning flag to new users that they are about to learn a very complex system. A vast majority of the web applications I have installed in the last two years, new or old, across a multitude of platforms; to include WordPress, Symfony CMF, Cachet, Flarum, and Sylius, do not include this type of in-application guide. Generally they have a proper documentation suite that lives outside the application or their interfaces aren't so complex that they need extensive documentation to learn it. Aside from Sylius (which is admittedly built as a developer's tool first and has approached the development API as their first level tool and their out-of-the-box UI as a second level) and Jenkins-CI (that one has actually made efforts to improve their onboarding, however also realize this is a continuous integration platform and very complex by nature), none of those applications (and others I have evaluated but can't remember off hand) have an administrative interface complex enough to call for needing to be met with this type of guide. As a CMS user, I feel this would make me second guess my choices being met with this type of prompt in a lot of cases; yes it does have its use in some applications, but I don't feel a mass distributed CMS which is number two in use in its marketspace (and unless I'm mistaken a top 10 used application across the entire internet) is one of those cases.

The anonymous system data message is persistent across all screens and forces them to make a choice. The entire top of the top of the dashboard is consumed by these messages, if that isn't forcing our users to be test dummies I don't know what is.

That was a terrible design decision frankly. That level of persistence should have been left for things like the 2.5 end of support message or the new warning in 3.7 indicating a user is running a nearly outdated or unsupported PHP version. Instead, we have given more precedence to begging users for their server metrics than we have communicating to users they are using unsupported software.

UX isn't complicated, it simply requires we look at these details through the eyes of our users. If we only look at this with a development perspective then we are only developing for developers.

Part of my day job is having to build administrative interfaces for complex websites; my major projects over the last few years have included building the administrative interface for an auction company to simultaneously run auctions live in person and to accept online participation, the user dashboard for a SaaS system, and an architectural (and usability) upgrade of a Joomla site with several disconnected and highly complex components to a custom Symfony application. Though I'm not actively involved in the design process, I am making a lot of design related decisions as I implement the various mockups and functional demos that my teams have produced for clients, and have learned a thing or three about not looking at things solely as "how would I do this?". At this point, my concerns are more driven by how I as a user and as a developer who is working for a company providing Joomla installations as a service to our clients would perceive Joomla moreso than as a software developer who has contributed to dozens of open source projects.

[ghost]

Let's not make this more complex than it needs to be. We need to make Joomla easier to understand for new users and the dashboard is less than ideal, there is no question about that. That's the problem we're trying to solve.

The guidance can ask "do you want help?", you can say "no" and carry as on as usual. We put it in the help menu or somewhere easy to find for the people might want it later. If you don't want to use it you won't be forced to. No bullet point I ever make is about forcing people to do anything, that is never my objective.

This PR was only brought to my attention last weekend. The UX team needs time to process it before we can come up with a solid direction. We can assist with the designs so you can focus more on development and it takes the pressure off you. That's the goal. Team work and distributing tasks effectively is the key. Let's not shoot anything down without giving it a chance.

[C-Lodder]

@mbabker - Did you never see the guide on the Youtube app? Probably one of the most simple apps to use, yet it still has a small guide. Bare in mind, not every person out there will instantly understand a CMS. There are loads of people out there that have absolutely no idea what a CMS is.

Prime examples are some of the people I've showed Joomla 3.x to. They didn't know what a CMS was. They had no idea how it worked, and out of all honestly, hey didn't particularly want to read through a hench amount of documentation. A small guide at the beginning is that that little something to push the user in the right direction.

The guide does not need to go into depth. It will simply need to be a few instructions on how to create a new page, how to assign a component to it, how to maybe assign a module to a page, etc.

Perhaps keep it as 8 simple steps.

[mbabker]

It's not my intention to shoot it down but at a very early stage I honestly find it worrying that we need to consider having the "getting started tour"; it to me indicates other major weaknesses we are trying to cover up (weak or difficult to find documentation) or indicating that we as a project feel our administrative interface is too complex for new or less technical users and that there needs to be extra guidance to get them started.

I'm not against improving documentation or its integration in general (also consider I'm maintaining the "bridge" application serving info from the docs wiki into the CMS through the help buttons). But this specific feature I do feel needs to be "challenged", something about it just feels wrong and feels like it would only strengthen the arguments people use to choose WordPress over Joomla in regards to ease of use.

[mbabker]

Did you never see the guide on the Youtube app? Probably one of the most simply apps to use, yet it still has a small guide.

I can't say I remember seeing it when initially installing the app and if prompted with it today after having had it installed for some time, short of a major redesign that changed all established use, I would actually find it highly irritating to get that type of notification today.

[dgrammatiko]

The UX team needs time to process it before we can come up with a solid direction. We can assist with the designs so you can focus more on development and it takes the pressure off you. That's the goal.

Don't waste your (and your teams) time on this as it is pretty straight forward. @C-Lodder already posted a candidate script, I have already proposed a few more. All these scripts, in essence, do the same thing: accept an array of values and render a popup that moves from id (and anchor) to id and displays the relevant text/info. At the end of the tour maybe an AJAX call (admin controller ?) will save the sate to the db. Or something along these lines. There is NOTHING to design here, this task is already done! It's just us picking the right script and do the implementation (probably as a demo only in one page). If it's ok we replicate it everywhere else we revert it. Let's not waste our time on extremely easy tasks that are already on our todo list...

@mbabker although i totally agree with Ellon Musk on this:

Any product that needs a manual to work is broken.

So in that sense, if we need a manual then we are doing it wrong. But the tour is not a manual, more like get familiar with our crappy terminology

[brianteeman]

I hear what @mbabker is saying. For me its not about our UI being poor (i dont think it really is) but more about something that is useful for new or occasional users. If you need it for regular use then yes we've done something wrong. But when you have a new admin or an admin who usually works on other systems then its very useful. (thats how mailchimp look at it)

From a practical perspective (and avoiding any extra fields or storage) I would simply make it something that is activated on the click of a button/icon. Which I would place next to the help button - its logical place.

On 24 November 2016 at 08:05, Dimitri Grammatikogianni < notifications@github.com> wrote:

The UX team needs time to process it before we can come up with a solid direction. We can assist with the designs so you can focus more on development and it takes the pressure off you. That's the goal.

Don't waste your (and your teams) time on this as it is pretty straight forward. @C-Lodder https://github.com/C-Lodder already posted a candidate script, I have already proposed a few more. All these scripts, in essence, do the same thing: accept an array of values and render a popup that moves from id (and anchor) to id and displays the relevant text/info. At the end of the tour maybe an AJAX call (admin controller ?) will save the sate to the db. Or something along these lines. There is NOTHING to design here, this task is already done! It's just us picking the right script and do the implementation (probably as a demo only in one page). If it's ok we replicate it everywhere else we revert it. Let's not waste our time on extremely easy tasks that are already on our todo list...

@mbabker https://github.com/mbabker although i totally agree with Ellon Musk on this:

Any product that needs a manual to work is broken.

So in that sense, if we need a manual then we are doing it wrong. But the tour is not a manual, more like get familiar with our crappy terminology

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[C-Lodder]

From a practical perspective (and avoiding any extra fields or storage) I would simply make it something that is activated on the click of a button/icon.

Even though I'm not a fan, it would make the work for this much easier.

[ciar4n]

We could add an option in the Joomla installation.. something like "Is this your first time to use Joomla?". If yes then I believe the guide would be of benefit. We could also use this option to determine the complexity of the layout. I would agree with @mbabker that a guide does hint at significant change which currently is not the case. I suspect the majority of daily installations of Joomla are not by first time users, in which case any guide would be quickly stopped.

[brianteeman]

No not in the installation. Its not for those people - it is for the occasional or new site admin

On 24 November 2016 at 10:12, Ciaran Walsh notifications@github.com wrote:

We could add an option in the Joomla installation.. something like "Is this your first time to use Joomla?". If yes then I believe the guide would be of benefit. We could also use this option to determine the complexity of the layout. I would agree with @mbabker https://github.com/mbabker that a guide does hint at significant change which currently is not the case. I suspect the majority of daily installations of Joomla are not by first time users, in which case any guide would be quickly stopped.

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[ciar4n]

Could the installation not be used to ask that question (are you occasional or new site admin)?

[ciar4n]

I get you now. Users needing guides doesn't mean a new installation. Fair point.

[dgrammatiko]

Guide foundation: https://github.com/joomla/40-backend-template/pull/247

Can you discuss now something more interesting, like c-panel?

[dgrammatiko]

@cpfeifer can your team evaluate my idea https://github.com/joomla/40-backend-template/issues/103#issuecomment-258680669 Also can you post all the relative mockups and data you have for the control panel?

[ghost]

I'm still putting the pieces together but I'll have something to show you before the end of the weekend. Even if it's still rough around the edges, I'll post what I do have no later than Monday. Thanks for your patience, I'm almost caught up.

[dgrammatiko]

@cpfeifer any updates here? This is kinda urgent...

[ghost]

Apologies, I was actually just getting back this. Thanks for your patience, I'm doing everything I can to catch up.

I approve of all the points on this. Drag and Drop / Publish & Unpublished definitely, I think this all is on the right track for the template itself, please keep going.

After going through all my notes and putting some basic mockups together, what I know will make the difference for the dashboard are the actual admin modules. I think those could be much improved and become much more useful. The functionality we have there is what will make or break the dashboard in my opinion.

My question is: are admin modules outside the scope of this repo? The issue with many of them is the HTML is happening in the helper files, so even if we do template overrides we're basically working with "echo $html" which is not ideal or flexible.

I've got a ton of concepts relating to dashboard modules but I'm not sure if we want to tackle that now, or just focus on the overall design and deal with other core concepts in the J4 repo. Let me know your thoughts.

I'll be in and out all day, but I'll be throwing a lot of ideas up here over the weekend. I'm excited I finally have time to work on this and I have a lot of stuff, and it'll be coming quick. Thanks again for your patience.

[dgrammatiko]

@cpfeifer there are two contradictory versions here: @C-Lodder 's and mine and I thought you already have some drawings etc. So go on towards?

The issue with many of them is the HTML is happening in the helper files

Just use JLayouts (hint: as we already doing in the forms). Also the modules should be ok to be done here

I've got a ton of concepts relating to dashboard modules

Share what you've got

[mbabker]

My question is: are admin modules outside the scope of this repo? The issue with many of them is the HTML is happening in the helper files, so even if we do template overrides we're basically working with "echo $html" which is not ideal or flexible.

Specify please so they can be fixed. I just checked about half of them and the HTML is in layouts only (or overridable helpers like JHtml).

[ghost]

I was up all night working on this and I have a business meeting in 5 minutes and a few more meetings after that.

I will provide more details later today, I'm just a little short on time at the moment.

[ghost]

@dgt41 apologies for any confusion, it's been a long week. What exactly is the pending / contradictory question? There is a lot going on in this thread and I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly. Help me catch up.

In terms of the items at the very top with the check boxes, I don't see any general reason to not move forward with those tasks if they are in question.

@mbabker specifically, the quick icons, some others a bit difficult to work with. Just as long as we can do what we need to do in some way it's not a huge deal, and it sounds like we can.

I've got some basic wireframes and info about the concepts, some are more complete than others. Essentially it's taking what already we have and enhancing it and presenting in different ways, nothing is too far out there in terms of development, it can easily go on top of what is there already.

I just got home and I'm a little frazzled. Let me clean this up a touch and I'll share it asap. It's been a long day I had a lot of new ideas pop-up last night. Just putting everything up here right now might cause more confusion than solves. I'll share what I can tonight and I'll be around all day tomorrow and most of the weekend working on this. I can't wait to dig into this more, but I need some sleep sooner than later :)

[coolcat-creations]

?????????

[C-Lodder]

Erm......

[mbabker]

Is the left hand not talking to the right hand? Because that's the impression I'm getting.

[ghost]

You all asked me to post what I have and this is what I have. My apologies if it's not applicable to this thread or items already decided, or in progress.

No one has been talking to me about anything for the past few months. I'm trying very hard to get on the same page with all of you and work with you effectively but I can't do that if no one is talking to me. I want to work with all of you and I want us to work together. Please help me do that.

I know there has been a lot of crappy community stuff happening lately, I've been stuck in the middle of all it and I wish that I wasn't. The last month has been very difficult for me personally, everything I've done this year is get to work on this specific project and making as awesome as possible is all I want to do. I want this to be successful and we can get there easier if we work together.

Can we please put all the personal crap behind us and work together? I'm willing to do anything I can to make this happen and get us all working together again. Please let me know what you like to see from me.

[coolcat-creations]

if you would have involve yourself from the beginning this confusion about your post would never happen. It´s not other peoples responsibility to keep you informed. It´s your own.

[C-Lodder]

Cliff. Forget wireframes. This surely thats Elisa's job right? Perhaps with an overview from Crystal.

I did specifically say to you on Skype that your top priority should be the research reports. This is what we're all waiting on.

[ghost]

I'm trying so hard to work with you @coolcat-creations, I really am. I don't want things to be like this between you and I. I liked it so much better when we got along.

I honestly don't know what you have done and what you haven't done because you haven't shared anything with me. We can only work together if communicate with each other, it's both of our responsibilities. We can only be a team if we work together, and that is what I would like to happen. Can we please start working together again?

You're an awesome designer and I'm here to support you. I'm not your enemy, I'm your friend.

[mbabker]

I don't make things personal unless it crosses a line with my personal beliefs when it comes to OSS, that's checked at the door. TBH I'm not really involved here in any way beyond offering technical advice and trying to keep Dimitri from rewriting all the JavaScript 😉

[coolcat-creations]

@cpfeifer you told me to continue communication with your assistant because she is doing your work so you can be the leader. So i forwarded my work to her. BTW since the meeting on 14.09 we didn´t hear from you, it´s your own responsibility to come to the team not ours.

[ghost]

@C-Lodder Here is the research report, it has everything we have done. I shared this with you last week: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15PEh5-VaB7MsCrI787u_dOerTbrl0bSlMW2lgeggz1k/

We could certainly analyze more, however time is a factor and I need some people to help with this. My top priority right now is getting a usably testing platform online so we can get actionable feedback on what's been done.

As I said, you're free to work with anyone and I want everyone here to help, but I have no way of knowing who is working on what if it's not communicated to me. It's fine with me if you want to do all of this as your own team, but it's very difficult for me to contribute to your efforts effectively if I'm not part of the discussion.

I'm here to help, but I can only help if you want my help. I don't feel like I'm welcome here and I don't feel like many people here want to work with me. If there is anything I can do to change that please let me know, but you can't expect me to be a mind reader.

If you want to do this without me, just say the words. I'm not going argue with any of you anymore. I only want you all to succeed, if it's easier for you to succeed without me then I'll step out of the way and wish you luck with no hard feelings. I'm all asking for is honesty.