[Joomla 3.6] Out of date language packs

[jeckodevelopment]

This is not a CMS issue, but it affects the i18n of the CMS so I opened this issue.

Steps to reproduce the issue

Go to Extensions > Languages > Install Languages

Expected result

All the languages ahould be at 3.6.x version.

Actual result

Many languages are at out of date. 39 Language Packs are up-to-date. (Romanian, Chinese Traditional, French, Japanese, Hungarian, Arabic Unitag, Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Korean, Macedonian, English AU, English US, Tamil, Thai, German DE, Portuguese Brazil, Serbian Latin, Spanish, Serbian Cyrillic, Swahili, English CA, Irish, German CH, German AT, German LI, German LU, Flemish, Italian, Persian, Polish, Swedish, Basque, Slovenian, Spanish CO, Slovak)

31 Language Packs are out-of-date: (Hebrew, Albanian, Belarusian, Vietnamese, Uyghur, Bahasa Indonesia, Welsh, Montenegrin, Sinhala, Galician, Hindi, Chinese Simplified, Malay, Greek, Norwegian Nynorsk, Latvian, Armenian, Dari Persian, Bulgarian, Khmer, Syriac, Dzongkha, Bosnian, Turkmen, Russian, Norwegian Bokmal, Turkish, Ukrainian, Finnish, French CA, Portuguese) Some of them are at 3.1.x and 3.2.x versions

System information (as much as possible)

Joomla! 3.6.0

Additional comments

@MATsxm what could we do to face this situation? Can you get in touch with Translation maintainers?

[jeckodevelopment]

[MATsxm]

@jeckodevelopment Ha! What to say... maybe contact the Official T9N WG as it seems they take care of the Core strings... I do agree there's an issue and IMHO a cleaning is necessary but I guess at this point, I'm not the one to ask for.

[jeckodevelopment]

But, also if you are not in that Team, i guess you can help us facing this situation :)

@stellainformatica , @marijkestuivenberg as group co-coordinator, can you please help with this? @infograf768 , please? :)

[MATsxm]

As a french and knowing what that means, I would like to keep my head on my shoulders.

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_{This comment was created with the J!Tracker Application at issues.joomla.org/joomla-cms/11390.}

[infograf768]

As a french and knowing what that means, I would like to keep my head on my shoulders.

That is a very good idea.

The Translation Teams are volunteers, as we all are. Some do things at once, others are late. Others disappear. The Translation Teams Coordination is doing its best by mails and forum posts to get as many languages updated as possible.

If someone volunteers to send —again— mails to the coordinators, their mails and forum links are here: https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html .

Complaining all the time will not solve this problem. Deleting these somehow un-updated packs neither as they can be useful to users (most changes are done in admin).

[jeckodevelopment]

thank you @infograf768 It's not a complain, but a "notice".

In fact my approach was "What can we do to face this issue?". All the Joomla's teams are volunteers, but sometimes some volunteers need to be taken by the hand to get things done.

[brianteeman]

and sometimes other people would be only too happy to help if they had the opportunity to do so. Opening up the process will enable that

On 1 August 2016 at 16:49, Luca Marzo notifications@github.com wrote:

thank you @infograf768 https://github.com/infograf768 It's not a complain, but a "notice".

In fact my approach was "What can we do to face this issue?". All the Joomla's teams are volunteers, but sometimes some volunteers need to be taken by the hand to get things done.

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/11390#issuecomment-236621188, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPH8UkQk6kuF2vhDe2zGowRsk3HvPNOks5qbhWJgaJpZM4JZpZq .

Brian Teeman Co-founder Joomla! and OpenSourceMatters Inc. http://brian.teeman.net/

[infograf768]

Ask to join the Coordination if you want to help. It is easy. Contact Marijke, Stella or Mig

[jeckodevelopment]

@brianteeman how the process could be opened? What do you mean?

[brianteeman]

by stopping the translation being the private role of a select few and using an open translation platform that would allow anyone to contribute. As you have seen some languages are up to THREE years out of date. Yet no one is able to contribute to fix those languages

On 1 August 2016 at 16:54, Luca Marzo notifications@github.com wrote:

@brianteeman https://github.com/brianteeman how the process could be opened? What do you mean?

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/11390#issuecomment-236622570, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPH8YxWWUzfzg7nCovyDE3TuRSdE-4Hks5qbhafgaJpZM4JZpZq .

Brian Teeman Co-founder Joomla! and OpenSourceMatters Inc. http://brian.teeman.net/

[jeckodevelopment]

Sometimes, we talked about Crowdin.com as standard localization tool, since it's currently used for different projects like com_patchtester and the imagery for Joomla 3.6

[brianteeman]

The tool doesnt matter - its the process that matters and being open to contribution.

[Hils]

"You do not have the required permissions to read topics within this forum."

Log in to the Joomla Forum, check out this page, and see what it says at the bottom! ^^^

http://forum.joomla.org/viewforum.php?f=511

Translations remain a closed shop.

[jeckodevelopment]

@brianteeman but the tool can also help the workflow, obviously.

[Sandra97]

Yes, a platform tool is one thing and makes possible to work in a real collaborative and open way and this is what is happening with other official projects other than the core CMS. A collaborative tool is a must have, but also team management and communication are 2 other parts that, if well managed, will lead to success. Just have a look to what have been done for Patchtester, Issue tracker, Jdocs, 3.5 Landing page... (But it also means MAT and I are working every day to motivate and help translators )

[jeckodevelopment]

that's exactly what i said here:

sometimes some volunteers need to be taken by the hand to get things done.

[marijkestuivenberg]

A number of Translation Teams are using crowdin for the core translations. It has been tested last year and opened up for every TT that prefers to work with it. As with most things, one likes it, the other doesn't. It's up to them.

Personally I like crowdin and it works great for the Dutch TT. But I don't think it makes much sense to fire translators that have done a great job, just because they don't prefer to use that tool and have their own workflow. Whenever their language pack is up to date, there is no reason to enforce things upon them. Though a team can always be contacted, see https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html

If a translation pack is not up to date, one can always contact the translator him/her self or ask the coordination team to help out. In most cases we will try to get hold of the former lead of the team, and try to establish collaboration, either on crowdin or as they prefer. If there is no reply from a former leader of a language, we will communicate how a new one can take over, whenever there is someone.

For the rest, I can only agree on JM's comment,

Complaining all the time will not solve this problem. Deleting these somehow un-updated packs neither as they can be useful to users (most changes are done in admin).

[Sandra97]

The tool doesnt matter - its the process that matters and being open to contribution.

Totally agree on the 2nd part and no, Jean-Marie, you can't say the current process is open. But to be clear, a platform such as Crowdin (or others) is also THE tool to get volunteers involved. Just as an example, such as the "GitHub" way (but even easier), Crowdin allows all kind of users to get involved, they can contribute, improve and/or maintain the language packs, and even if the process is "closed", people can still vote to improve the strings. And so, they have the feeling to be involved.

@jeckodevelopment, don't ask MAT how many hours per day he spends to manage and motivate the translators.

[jeckodevelopment]

As said, no one wants to fire on translators that did and continue doing a very hard and good work. The suggestion of a tool is to "uniform" all the workflow, like Github and to have an open place where to check how things are going.

Furthermore, using a tool would improve the efficiency of the translation process...

[marijkestuivenberg]

Even though I completely agree on that it would improve the efficiency of the translation process, if 'to unify the workflow' means enforcing it upon the teams, and results in people that contributed more then 8 years, leaving because of that. I'm not in favor.

I think it is a matter of time, we've waited long enough for a tool that met our requirements. It's here now, it's been heavily discussed and translators are supported to use the tool. They're just not enforced.

[Sandra97]

Agree with "not enforced" and we never wanted to enforce people to use a tool, but just to offer a solution which fits to the needs without forbid the possibilitly to translate. Once again, there's a lack in the collaborative spirit to forbid French Translators to use Crowdin and make translations behind closed doors.

[infograf768]

@Sandra97 The process is not open (special private TT forum) for a simple reason: if we let anyone propose anything concerning a language, we have no way to make sure that the strings will make sense + the fact that the forum would be flooded with b...t. The problem is NOT the tool. The problem is to find reliable TT coordinators that do the job, whatever the tool.

For example, I do not use crowdin. I prefer com_localise as I do not have to be online to prepare fr-FR packs. I propose beta packs to the French community (those concerned...) to test and feedback. It goes much faster and I am usually ready before other TTs. We do have a repo on github where anyone may propose a patch that we will or not take into account...

If that is closed doors, let it be.

[brianteeman]

I don't accept that the closed translation process is a positive quality issue. As an open source project and open source advocates it goes against everything we should believe jn.

[yild]

That's the first time I hear about crowdin .com for Joomla translation... There is no info in Translation forum at forums.joomla.org (that you will see visiting this forum, pinned or otherwise) or in https://community.joomla.org/translations.html.

First time I had to create PL translation (that was for J3.5) I created my OWN tool for that and I used it until now. I don't think that tool will change anything. PL team was one man (https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html#pl-pl - there are many ppl but it isn't up to date, even coordinator is one person now) until recently (I joined after 3.5.1). Until then I posted my translation at polish forum (joomla.pl)). Up to this point only coordinator was preparing translations. My first translation was for my bussiness intranet web page. I thought that if there is no 'current' translation why not to share it with others. So no, tools will not change anything, they might help but without contributors they will just 'be'.

Going back to crowdin.com, just checked language files contents in demo project. It Joomla language files looks like this in demo it will pass to use this. (Much prefer 'simple' Transifex files).

ps. about my OWN tool (which isn't written in open source language but in one that I prefer...) which I didn't even share it with my own coordinator... It allows me to find differences within two last editions of en-GB language packs (official and files downloaded from github at language freeze) and add/mark keys that needs to be translated. Its something like diff, but more ;) This way I can prepare PL files in 1-2 days after language freeze. Then I send it to my coordinator with list of modified/added keys for review, and then he uploads it to joomlacode. @brianteeman if you think that this is against open source then I quit.

[jeckodevelopment]

Not enforcing tools, but suggesting. By the way, an open workflow (or tool or whatever) would allow people to contribute. In the actual way, all the work is done by 1 or 2 people that, obviously do a very good job, but it's not fair. We should welcome contributors.

[jeckodevelopment]

@yild it's not about the tool technology. Each Translation Team now uses a different workflow or a custom solution (like yours one). Some of them use com_localise.

[brianteeman]

To be clear the main issue Luca is trying to address is the languages that have not been updated for up to three years.

[jeckodevelopment]

yes, @brianteeman you're right. I would like to know why such a large number of language packs are not up to date. Is there a tool issue? Lack of people? Coordinator disappeared?

[mbabker]

How each team is working IMO isn't a big deal, but I think the default going forward should be whatever the established standard is right now (so Crowdin) and teams choosing to deviate from it should have a good explanation why. Maybe they have more efficient tools or workflows and that's fine by me, but it should be clear why the choice was made and it shouldn't preclude potential new contributors from joining in.

I get there are established teams and workflows now. Nobody is trying to discourage those already doing the work from continuing to do so or keep using the tools/systems they're comfortable with. We want to make it easier for folks to jump in and help with teams beyond trying to locate a coordinator on a site and hoping they're receptive to you reaching out if they're even responsive at all. I don't have answers for that, which is why all my translation workflows defer to individuals who do have knowledge in that area and could help figure things out.

[ot2sen]

The main issue should be simpel to address. Each TT agreed to the term of 'Language packs shall be kept up to date with the current releases of Joomla' when they joined. If that or any of the other 18-20 defined terms they accepted isn´t full filled, the policy said the listings would be removed. That older policy is no longer in the side menu since the community site update, but was until the recent site update.

A softer approach than deleting from site listings and official distribution, could be that of still keeping the unmaintained language in crowdin for others to pick up and contribute to and to add to the distribution when up to date again. This to make sure already done work could be recycled so new comers wouldn´t have to start from scratch.

Optimally the whole localisation and translation proces should be as open and dynamic as possible in order to have the teams provide ongoing feedback of potential internationalisation issues discovered when maintaining a language, so that issues can be address during a staging phase, rather than in a last week of freeze.

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 7:55 PM, Brian Teeman notifications@github.com wrote:

To be clear the main issue Luca is trying to address is the languages that have not been updated for up to three years.

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[Hils]

@jeckodevelopment - @infograf768 touched on one of the reasons for partial translation earlier in this thread. Some translators use the backend in en-GB but need the front end in their own or various other languages for their visitors. So they just translate the part that is important to them. It has been the same with extensions too.

[jeckodevelopment]

Thank you @ot2sen and @mbabker I don't like the hard approach in this case, to be honest. I don't want to see deletions in language packs. Translators gave a very high effort to create such a big number of language packs that no one wants to destroy their work. I like the softer approach. In fact I want to understand why a language pack is no more up to date. And I like your proposal: if a TT is dead we can move to Crowdin the language pack and start receiving contrbutions from new translators.

[jeckodevelopment]

@Hils I can understand this point. But Language Packs should be complete: frontend + backend. A closed process in this case doesn't allow other people to translate what people who is in charge for the LP did not want to translate.

[Hils]

Agree @jeckodevelopment - I have always believed in crowd sourcing translations rather than relying on one or two people per language who might or might not be right or wrong. Crowdin (sounds like crowd sourcing!), Transifex or one of the many more that I know @ot2sen has tried out, are far more open and available to all, so translations can be constantly 'honed' and remembered by the software using Translation Memory. Modern translation software will even offer 'suggestions' for translators which makes it far faster especially if the Translation Memory is made up of say Joomla specific language.

[infograf768]

someone is not happy with a non updated language pack? simple : put the old pack indeed on crowdin, find a new language coordinator who will be responsible for that language and let this person contact the TT coordinaion to be allowed to upload the pack on joomlacode in the special rep we have there. any other debate is useless.

[marijkestuivenberg]

Perhaps you should all have a look at the crowdin project. You'd discover that more than half of the languages that are mentioned not to be up to date are present on crowdin, some of them ready to be updated with the new release... Just in case this is where to find it: https://crowdin.com/project/joomla-cms

Reason why a language pack is not updated is in most cases when a language coordinator is not responding anymore. Whenever there is someone to take over it is processed. btw. the info on the article in community about the number of translators per team, does not reflect the truth. Looking at the activity on crowdin you can see many more are involved. Also keep in mind that a number of languages have their own community including their own communication channels.

[jeckodevelopment]

@infograf768 that's what I want to know. If a language pack is abandoned, we need to find new people to work at it.

Yes, @marijkestuivenberg each team has its own communication channels and methods. And I agree when you say that the most common case is that the language coordinator disappear.

So, can we start unblocking this situation and get in touch with out-of-date LP coordinators?

[infograf768]

@jeckodevelopment

So, can we start unblocking this situation and get in touch with out-of-date LP coordinators?

What do you think the TT Coordination is doing? Sending mails, posting Topics on the forum as I said earlier. All existing Translation Teams coordinators credentials are available to all https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html

Do you volunteer to also contact them? Please do. No reply? Find a new volunteer...

[dgrammatiko]

I see that Greek lang is outdated but there is a 3.6.0 package submitted from a translator: http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=928912 So maybe what @brianteeman mentioned above for opening up the process (honestly I am not aware of the process), really make sense?

[infograf768]

@dgt41 You should have looked further http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=711&t=928908

The guy never contacted the Coordination...

[brianteeman]

With an open process there would have been no need - he could have just submitted his changes as easily as he posted them on the forum

On 2 August 2016 at 08:23, infograf768 notifications@github.com wrote:

@dgt41 https://github.com/dgt41 You should have looked further http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=711&t=928908

The guy never contacted the Coordination...

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/11390#issuecomment-236823147, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPH8eXJCTpWCMYmceWE4LdKw1pEc7ycks5qbvCHgaJpZM4JZpZq .

Brian Teeman Co-founder Joomla! and OpenSourceMatters Inc. http://brian.teeman.net/

[ghost]

@infograf768

We do have a repo on github where anyone may propose a patch that we will or not take into account...

Where?

OffTopic question: If someone wants to reply: crowdin.com seems to be a paid service, not a free one. Who pays at the moment for https://crowdin.com/project/joomla-cms ?

[stellainformatica]

The process of translation of the core language files of Joomla is not closed or secret, it's only reserved and who wishes to participate is welcome. Similarly to other departments of the Joomla project, which coordinate dialogue and work in private areas. Obviously there are certain terms to accept and some small rules to follow for those who want to collaborate in the various translation teams. The information about who participates are public. In the private forums are often indicated in advance the dates of future releases of Joomla with other details that we have always preferred to remain private so as not to create confusion in the community. About the Translation Policy, it should be republished as soon as possible in Joomla.org site, we will commit to restore it and make it respected by Translation Teams.

[MATsxm]

@bertmert https://crowdin.com/page/open-source-project-setup-request

Note that Crowdin has a real willingness to work WITH Joomla! and that they are very reactive (that was not the case with other services) and that our relations are excelentes. Not a single $ is paid for, only time of volunteers.

IMHO we should also strengthen and formalize a partnership which would allow Joomla! AND Crowdin, to explain to the Community that this service is available FOR them. What doesn't mean they MUST use it if they prefer to work on another tool, but just that they will find an adapted COLLABORATIVE and OPEN t9n tool and more important, the help from other volunteers to work on it. Agree or disagree, this communication is a total fail today and then even that it works when it is done the right way (see other translation projects).

Side note and even it is not the place for an internal fr vs. fr topic, I hope JM that when you're saying that YOUR process is open because you have a GitHub repo, this is just a joke.

[ot2sen]

For those interested the policy is at https://community.joomla.org/25-translations/544-joomla-project-translation-and-localization-policy.html and just not linked to a side menu currently it seems.

For the matter of openness, collaboration and transparency I would agree with Brian and others. This is key to further strengthening the support of joomla in any language.

Nothing of we originally considered to be best held private, is today needed to be held private (neither was it in the past). The project is at a stage where this information is made public for all in advance and that for good use so that collaboration of marketing materials, imagery, landing pages are done in time before releases. A very open and collaborative process that has worked well when those in charge been proactive and engaging with the language volunteers. At this point we wouldn´t even need that policy. It over complicates the basic thing of contributing where you can with what you have to share. Be open, it is time :)

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 12:35 PM, ste notifications@github.com wrote:

The process of translation of the core language files of Joomla is not closed or secret, it's only reserved and who wishes to participate is welcome. Similarly to other departments of the Joomla project, which coordinate dialogue and work in private areas. Obviously there are certain terms to accept and some small rules to follow for those who want to collaborate in the various translation teams. The information about who participates are public. In the private forums are often indicated in advance the dates of future releases of Joomla with other details that we have always preferred to remain private so as not to create confusion in the community. About the Translation Policy, it should be republished as soon as possible in Joomla.org site, we will commit to restore it and make it respected by Translation Teams.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/11390#issuecomment-236867149, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAwPrWFarrxVcTd0FTnNKwCRsJfH3R5Zks5qbx1ggaJpZM4JZpZq .

[yild]

There should be an info about crowdin.com if you prefer this method of translation... ATM there is nowhere to be found or its hidden and not easily accessible.

[MATsxm]

@yild This is part of the problem but + :100:

[mbabker]

Nothing of we originally considered to be best held private, is today needed to be held private (neither was it in the past).

Just for reference, at least when I was doing things, there have been times the translation teams were given a date time range for when a release might be pushed out including security fixes, a forewarning that generally doesn't happen in a public forum short of there being an "oh s**t!" reactionary move. So there is occasionally the need for "private" communication but it's really more of an exception than the rule.

[marijkestuivenberg]

To be clear the main issue Luca is trying to address is the languages that have not been updated for up to three years.

Let's get the facts straight. There are only 2 language packages that are not updated up to three years. Albanian and Hebrew are on 3.1.1. The good news is that currently there is work done on the Hebrew package at crowdin. So hopefully soon there will be an updated version.

Two more are of concern, both on 3.2: Vietnamese and Belarussian. Vietnamese is present on crowdin, but there is no activity seen there.

7 language packages are on 3.3, the rest is on 3.4 and 3.5. Most are on crowdin, and a good number of them are updated there and good progress can be seen.

@yild I think you should contact your language coordinator about that, he should been informed. PL is also present on crowdin but no Proofreader assigned. The 2 of you should discuss what is the best way for you to maintain the language packages and have as much input from the Polish community (which is very vibrant I think) as possible. Just let the coordination know and it will be taken care of.

[Bakual]

Technically Crowdin is still in an evaluation state for the CMS as written on https://crowdin.com/project/joomla-cms. It turned out to work very well so far and more and more languages have been added. Not all of them are active as some languages also were just initially set up when moved from the respective (abandoned) Transifex project. You can see them here: https://crowdin.com/projects/Joomla Also other projects were started successfully on the same (free open source) account. To make it our "official" translation tool, the next steps should be a decision by PLT (if needed) and most importantely it needs to be communicated and the related scripts (syncing with GitHub and triggering package generation) need to be moved from my private server to an official Joomla property. That's likely a job for PLT to do. Maybe @jeckodevelopment can help with that. The script to sync the files is currently here: https://gist.github.com/Bakual/7a750e4f3f89c72bfd3c I've also written a plugin which lets you translate Joomla within Joomla itself by clicking the strings where they appear: https://github.com/Bakual/crowdinachug. That one needs to be updated, tested and communicated as well.

So the part of translating Joomla CMS would be very open using Crowdin. But obviously only for the languages that choose to use this service. Some teams still prefer to use com_localise (https://github.com/joomla-projects/com_localise) or other tools. I don't think there is an issue with that as long as they deliver up-to-date and quality packages (like eg french does).

Personally I would move the outdated languages packs (eg more than 2 minor versions behind) to Crowdin and look for a new "proofreader"/coordinator to take care of that language. However I don't know how you can find such a person.

The next step in the process of creating a package is to make it available. Currently that is up to the language team coordinator. He has an account on the dreaded JoomlaCode where he is allowed to upload the final package. A cron job then periodically reads the released packages and creates an XML file with the list of available languages. That XML is read by the language installer in the Joomla CMS. Now JC is bound to be deleted as it is a highly buggy and unsupported software. There should be a new download site but I don't know the current state of that. PLT should know more about that. In a perfect world, that download portal could read the Crowdin API and automatically download the latest packages from there. But I guess it will not be reliable enough (eg you can't flag packages as "released" in Crowdin) and still needs manual processing to make sure the package works. So that part of the process likely will still need to be "private" as you can't allow anyone to upload packages to the download place. You need a few trusted people (eg the language coordinators) to do that or it will become a horrible mess :smile: However if the language is hosted on Crowdin it is much easier to take over the work and release a language pack if the coordinator is gone missing. And we can also help much easier with issues.