Bad (incorrect) data found in JSON files, after automated comparison to QCC, broken out by deck

[TheDavii]

Bad (incorrect) data found in JSON files, after automated comparison to QCC, broken out by deck. These were verified by inspection of card scans:

Blue starter:

CardID = 70 Title = Geneva Convention type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

CardID = 74 Title = The Mad, Mad Donnelaith Bakery bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

CardID = 75 Title = The Mad, Mad Donnelaith Bakery bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

CardID = 81 Title = Rooney's Reusables type:= Bunnypedia: SPECIAL QCC : VERY_SPECIAL bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

Yellow deck:

CardID = 121 Title = Choose A Carrot bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

CardID = 122 Title = Choose A Carrot bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

CardID = 123 Title = Choose 2 Carrots bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

CardID = 124 Title = Choose 2 Carrots bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

CardID = 131 Title = Sea Whiz Mount Bunnypedia value for symbols = ['JUPITER'] This is incorrect QCC value for symbols missing.

Red deck:

CardID = 202 Title = Show Me The Bunny type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

CardID = 208 Title = 1 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 209 Title = 2 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 210 Title = 3 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 211 Title = 3 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 212 Title = 3 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 213 Title = 5 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 214 Title = 5 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 215 Title = 10 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

Violet deck:

CardID = 245 Title = Rooney's Weapons Emporium - 5/Level bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 253 Title = Large Prune Danish type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

Orange deck:

CardID = 276 Title = Marilyn Bunroe - Single Specialty Bunny bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 277 Title = Bunnies Of Hazzard - Double Specialty Bunny bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 278 Title = Bunnylon 3 - Triple Specialty Bunny bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 279 Title = Those 70's Bunnies - Triple Specialty Bunny bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 298 Title = Lucky Clover – Heptdruple (Bunny Modifier) bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 308 Title = Incredibly Magic Fountain type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 309 Title = Incredibly Magic Fountain type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

Green: CardID = 348 Title = Day Of The Dead bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY dice:= Bunnypedia: ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK'] QCC : ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'RED', 'PINK']

CardID = 357 Title = Wheels Chocolate dice:= Bunnypedia: ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'RED', 'PINK'] QCC : ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK']

ardID = 374 Title = Aries zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: ARIES QCC : FIRE

CardID = 375 Title = Taurus zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: TAURUS QCC : EARTH

CardID = 376 Title = Gemini zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: GEMINI QCC : AIR

CardID = 377 Title = Cancer zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: CANCER QCC : WATER

CardID = 378 Title = Leo zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: LEO QCC : FIRE

CardID = 379 Title = Virgo zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: VIRGO QCC : EARTH

CardID = 380 Title = Libra zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: LIBRA QCC : AIR

CardID = 381 Title = Scorpio zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: SCORPIO QCC : WATER

CardID = 382 Title = Sagittarius zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: SAGITTARIUS QCC : FIRE

CardID = 383 Title = Capricorn zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: CAPRICORN QCC : EARTH

CardID = 384 Title = Aquarius zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: AQUARIUS QCC : AIR

CardID = 385 Title = Pisces zodiacType:= Bunnypedia: PISCES QCC : WATER

Twilight White deck:

CardID = 421 Title = Free Pawn bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 430 Title = White Stuff bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

Perfectly Pink:

CardID = 504 Title = Feed All Your Bunnies 2/2 title:= Bunnypedia: Feed All Your Bunnies 2/2 QCC : Feed All Your Bunnies cabbage:= Bunnypedia: 1 QCC : 2 water:= Bunnypedia: 1 QCC : 2

Whaky Khaki:

CardID = 590 Title = Terrible Misfortune – Pamplona type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : PLAY_IMMEDIATELY

CardID = 600 Title = Ensign Rank O-1 (Bunny Modifier) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : RANK bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 601 Title = Lieutenant JG Rank O-2 (Bunny Modifier) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : RANK bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 602 Title = Lieutenant Rank O-3 (Bunny Modifier) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : RANK bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 603 Title = LT Commander Rank O-4 (Bunny Modifier) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : RANK bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 604 Title = Commander Rank O-5 (Bunny Modifier) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : RANK bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 605 Title = Captain Rank O-6 (Bunny Modifier) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : RANK

bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

Ominous Onyx deck:

CardID = 644 Title = Echo Valley 2-6809 dice:= Bunnypedia: ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK'] QCC : ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK', 'V10', 'O10', 'G10', 'Y10', 'B10']

CardID = 645 Title = The Fifth Element dice:= Bunnypedia: ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK'] QCC : ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'O10', 'G10', 'Y10', 'B10']

CardID = 680 Title = Dark Violets type:= Bunnypedia: VERY_SPECIAL QCC : PLAY_IMMEDIATELY

CardID = 682 Title = Very Terrible Misfortune – Irate ducks bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 683 Title = Extremely Terrible Misfortune – Instantaneous Proton Decay type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : PLAY_IMMEDIATELY

CardID = 684 Title = 1 Dolla bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 685 Title = 1 Dolla bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 686 Title = 1 Dolla bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 687 Title = 2 Dolla bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

Chocolate deck:

CardID = 733 Title = Hitchbunny's Guide dice:= Bunnypedia: ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK'] QCC : ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK', 'B10', 'G10', 'O10', 'V10', 'Y10']

Conquest Blue starter:

CardID = 0837 Title = Bizarre Baccarat type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

CardID = 0837 Title = Bizarre Baccarat type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

CardID = 0839 Title = Blue Plate Special type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

CardID = 0840 Title = Blue Plate Special type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

CardID = 0847 Title = Lemon Squeezie type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

853 - 855 do not appear on the Bunnypedia app because Deck= PLAY_IMMEDIATELY

CardID = 0853 Title = Terrible Misfortune – Defibrillator type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : PLAY_IMMEDIATELY deck:= Bunnypedia: PLAY_IMMEDIATELY QCC : CONQUEST_BLUE

CardID = 0854 Title = Terrible Misfortune – High Rise type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : PLAY_IMMEDIATELY deck:= Bunnypedia: PLAY_IMMEDIATELY QCC : CONQUEST_BLUE

CardID = 0855 Title = Terrible Misfortune – Rolling Rock type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : PLAY_IMMEDIATELY deck:= Bunnypedia: PLAY_IMMEDIATELY QCC : CONQUEST_BLUE

Conquest Red:

CardID = 0944 Title = Feed The Bunny 3/3 milk:= Bunnypedia: 1 QCC : 3

CardID = 0959 Title = Kentucky Avenue dice:= Bunnypedia: ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED'] QCC : ['VIOLET', 'ORANGE', 'GREEN', 'YELLOW', 'BLUE', 'BLACK', 'RED', 'PINK'] Bunny Bits indicate Pink is used, but the card does not.

CardID = 0961 Title = Morden's Metals Exchange bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

Conquest Violet: CardID = 0999 Title = Feed The Bunny 3/2 radish:= Bunnypedia: 4 QCC : 3 milk:= Bunnypedia: 1 QCC : 2

CardID = 1030 Title = Shiner Senator (Bunny Modifier) bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 1031 Title = Winer Senator (Bunny Modifier) title:= Bunnypedia: Winer Senator (Bunny Modifier) KB web site incorrectly spells it "Winer." QCC : Whiner Senator - Bunny Modifier *** card spells it "Whiner." bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 1039 Title = Copper type:= Bunnypedia: DOLLA QCC : METAL

CardID = 1040 Title = Silver type:= Bunnypedia: DOLLA QCC : METAL

Fantastic deck:

CardID = 1071 Title = Angry Nerds type:= Bunnypedia: VERY_SPECIAL QCC : RUN bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: NO QCC : PLAY

CardID = 1072 Title = Omega Thirteen type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : VERY_SPECIAL

CardID = 1090 Title = Zero Protection type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : SPECIAL

Creature Feature deck:

CardID = 1176 Title = Funky Fungus Triple – (Bunny Modifier) bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

CardID = 1196 Title = Terrible Misfortune (Casting) – Hot Air Balloon bunnyRequirement:= Bunnypedia: PLAY QCC : NO

Pumpkin Spice deck:

CardID = 1259 Title = 2 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 1260 Title = 3 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 1261 Title = 5 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 1262 Title = 10 Dolla type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : DOLLA

CardID = 1263 Title = Billon (Copper/Silver) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : METAL

CardID = 1264 Title = Electrum (Silver/Gold) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : METAL

CardID = 1265 Title = Tumbaga (Gold/Copper) type:= Bunnypedia: RUN QCC : METAL

[TheDavii]

In digging in a bit more, it looks like my program to find differences omitted differences where the keys were missing entirely from Bunnypedia (if a key existed in Bunnypedia, the same key was checked in the QCC, but if it didn't exist at all, it was never checked. It also doesn't check the rules and I found a set of minor differences with the rules, too.

I'll post a more comprehensive list of differences in a few days.

[Mahobear8]

I found out a few days ago some of the cards are missing the MYSTERIOUS_PLACE_BALL symbol. There are 18 cards that are said to have it. There should be 27 according to the QCC. If I find the time I'll make a list later today of the ones missing it.

[joshfriend]

This is super helpful, thank you. I will get to updating it eventually 😛

[TheDavii]

I found out a few days ago some of the cards are missing the MYSTERIOUS_PLACE_BALL symbol. There are 18 cards that are said to have it. There should be 27 according to the QCC. If I find the time I'll make a list later today of the ones missing it.

Matthew, from listening to your vlog/podcast "Bunny Banter," it sounds like you have a spreadsheet (or maybe a database) that you use for statistics and attributes. Are there any attributes that your spreadsheet captured that aren't included in Bunnypedia or in the QCC (say, something one or both of us should add)?

[Mahobear8]

I found out a few days ago some of the cards are missing the MYSTERIOUS_PLACE_BALL symbol. There are 18 cards that are said to have it. There should be 27 according to the QCC. If I find the time I'll make a list later today of the ones missing it.

Matthew, from listening to your vlog/podcast "Bunny Banter," it sounds like you have a spreadsheet (or maybe a database) that you use for statistics and attributes. Are there any attributes that your spreadsheet captured that aren't included in Bunnypedia or in the QCC (say, something one or both of us should add)?

The database is created from the Bunnypedia JSON so nothing different

[TheDavii]

This is super helpful, thank you. I will get to updating it eventually 😛

There were a lot more differences than I expected outside of the rules themselves (comparing the rules directly is challenging because of the many internal links, the different ordering we've chosen for adding Bunny Bits, and the like). You've already put a ton of work into this, so if it is easier, I can make replacement JSON files for you (and test against those for cleanup accuracy) and save you some work.

I looked into making a pull request, but then I have to fork the repo and that seemed like even more work.

[TheDavii]

Josh, I programmatically modified and did some hand-editing of the attached JSON files.

I kept your titles, rules, rank, canonicalID, zodiacAnimal, weaponLevel and psi fields. I edited the few rules where I saw a repeated typo of "kinds" on the colored bunnies. All of the types, dice, symbols, radish, milk, water, cabbage, etc. (anything not listed above) came from the QCC.

I compared the two outputs (Bunnypedia and QCC) iteratively as I made changes. As there were fewer differences as I "fixed" things, I noticed differences I hadn't seen before, so I cleaned up some of the card naming (e.g., "Blue Congenial" became "Blue Congenial Bunny" since "Bunny" is written on the card and the later bunnies like "Blue Breakdown Bunny" are written out fully). I also changed (or added) "(Bunny Modifier)" where cards were missing that descriptor in the name. I also corrected a few errors that were apparently copied from errors on the KillerBunnies.com web site. Oh, that includes the id as a string too. Should be easy to convert, but it looks like you must have added code to do that already since I saw one of the later boosters had id as a string.

I included the Kinderbunnies 10-sided dice in the dice list where those are present on cards. "B10" is the Blue 10-sided die. "G10" is the Green 10-sided die, etc. I hope that doesn't cause issues for your code.

I even found two minor errors in the QCC that I fixed as a result of the comparison. So 5 hours well spent!

[Mahobear8]

Josh, I programmatically modified and did some hand-editing of the attached JSON files. modified_bunnypedia_json.zip

I kept your titles, rules, rank, canonicalID, zodiacAnimal, weaponLevel and psi fields. I edited the few rules where I saw a repeated typo of "kinds" on the colored bunnies. All of the types, dice, symbols, radish, milk, water, cabbage, etc. (anything not listed above) came from the QCC.

I compared the two outputs (Bunnypedia and QCC) iteratively as I made changes. As there were fewer differences as I "fixed" things, I noticed differences I hadn't seen before, so I cleaned up some of the card naming (e.g., "Blue Congenial" became "Blue Congenial Bunny" since "Bunny" is written on the card and the later bunnies like "Blue Breakdown Bunny" are written out fully). I also changed (or added) "(Bunny Modifier)" where cards were missing that descriptor in the name. I also corrected a few errors that were apparently copied from errors on the KillerBunnies.com web site. Oh, that includes the id as a string too. Should be easy to convert, but it looks like you must have added code to do that already since I saw one of the later boosters had id as a string.

I included the Kinderbunnies 10-sided dice in the dice list where those are present on cards. "B10" is the Blue 10-sided die. "G10" is the Green 10-sided die, etc. I hope that doesn't cause issues for your code.

I even found two minor errors in the QCC that I fixed as a result of the comparison. So 5 hours well spent!

This was very helpful for correcting my database that I reference for Bunny Banter. Thanks Glenn!

[TheDavii]

The comparison also allowed me to send a list of 9 typos on the Killerbunnies.com web site (the source of some of the naming errors) to Jonathan Young, who corrected them by Sunday evening.

Additionally, I realized that I used the zodiacType from the QCC rather than Bunnypedia. In Bunnypedia, the zodiacType was the same as the name (Virgo = Virgo), while in the QCC, the zodiacType was the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water, necessary for a Mysterious Place theft at the end of the game. Since there are only 12, it should be fairly quick to change them back manually. Or, I can generate a new Green JSON. Thoughts?

[joshfriend]

Or, I can generate a new Green JSON. Thoughts?

I can make those small changes manually.

[TheDavii]

Found an error of mine in the export of The Fifth Element in Onyx (missing dice Pink and V10), so I fixed the cause of the error in Onyx and re-created Green to address the issue of zodiacType (not being the same as the name) while I was at it. All other files in the archive are same as the first modification.

modified_bunnypedia_json_2019-08-12.zip

[joshfriend]

I found out a few days ago some of the cards are missing the MYSTERIOUS_PLACE_BALL symbol. There are 18 cards that are said to have it. There should be 27 according to the QCC.

I found a few where the symbols field was missing after checking all of the card images. I still only count 24 though @Mahobear8

"Blue Congenial" became "Blue Congenial Bunny" since "Bunny" is written on the card and the later bunnies like "Blue Breakdown Bunny" are written out fully). I also changed (or added) "(Bunny Modifier)" where cards were missing that descriptor in the name.

This is a good change. This fixes an issue where searching for "bunny" does not show most of the actual bunny cards!

I included the Kinderbunnies 10-sided dice in the dice list where those are present on cards. "B10" is the Blue 10-sided die. "G10" is the Green 10-sided die, etc. I hope that doesn't cause issues for your code.

I made a separate issue to track adding D10 dice to the database (#89).

I used the zodiacType from the QCC rather than Bunnypedia. In Bunnypedia, the zodiacType was the same as the name

That's a poor choice on my part in the name I chose for that field. I've renamed it to zodiacSign. The zodiac element (fire, water, etc) is not in the json data and is computed from the sign in the app.

[Mahobear8]

Should be current full list of Mysterious Place Ball cards: 0051 0082 0154 0250 0319 0362 0394 0415 0449 0478 0525 0530 0563 0573 0628 0678 0723 0852 0955 1069 1075 1090 1116 1123 1130 1183 Kinder: 030 With release of London: 1287

Thus, bunnypedia should currently have 26 since it doesn't yet have London or Kinder. Correct me if any of the IDs listed don't have it, I got it from QCC so will need to be corrected if wrong

[TheDavii]

Should be current full list of Mysterious Place Ball cards: 0051 0082 0154 0250 0319 0362 0394 0415 0449 0478 0525 0530 0563 0573 0628 0678 0723 0852 0955 1069 1075 1090 1116 1123 1130 1183 Kinder: 030 With release of London: 1287

1287 is Mushy Peas. Unless you've heard a clarification from JB, I believe that card has a pea-green ball with a red stripe, which does not qualify it to be a Yellow Ball card. Do you mean 1274 (Gryffin Bunnies), which has a Yellow Ball in the form of a Quidditch Golden Snitch? That's what we're listing in the next version of the QCC.

Thus, bunnypedia should currently have 26 since it doesn't yet have London or Kinder. Correct me if any of the IDs listed don't have it, I got it from QCC so will need to be corrected if wrong

I confirm 26 without London or Kinder.

[Mahobear8]

Ah, I did miss 1274, good catch. I have not officially heard a clarification from JB for 1287, but in reference to Kris declaring it a green ball with red stripe in the Bunny Banter episode, Jeff replied "Green Ball.....? Hilarious." I interpreted that as this is intended to mechanically be the yellow-ball with red stripe symbol, but the coloring is off for thematic reasons, but if you'd like to further clarify with him, it may be a good idea. Who knows, maybe Kris will be correct and Green Ball with Red Stripe will be a new mechanic (I personally doubt it)

[joshfriend]

Viva Las Vegas and Ultimate Chaos are particularly hard to spot, no wonder I missed those! I count 26 not including Kinder as well now.

[Mahobear8]

A bit off topic, but that brings up an interesting question. What exactly does the Yellow Ball with Red Stripe do on Ultimate Chaos? Since the mechanic always has to control the card within the rules of the card, exactly what control is there? I can't think of any variance that could occur @TheDavii

[joshfriend]

Since it's "play immediately", applies to "all players", and doesn't say "may be used" I don't think there's anything to control in that case.

[TheDavii]

Since it's "play immediately", applies to "all players", and doesn't say "may be used" I don't think there's anything to control in that case.

A lot off-topic, but the rule for Control of the Yellow Ball says (in part), "The opponent must play the card first, then the player may redirect it to any other player, bunny or the Discard Pile." [emphasis added]

Therefore, I will argue that the Yellow Ball mechanic does apply. Practically speaking, with this Play Immediately, the player with the Yellow Ball with the Red Stripe can prevent the "ultimate" chaos by discarding it. Perhaps players can negotiate (bribe) the Yellow Ball player to force its discard.

[Mahobear8]

However, we know with Terrible Misfortunes that since discarding the card is not an option within the rules, the Yellow Ball cannot force it to be discarded. I'd have to find it, but I recall Jeff clarifying mechanically it can only control within the rules of the card. Therefore, since it's not normally an option to discard Ultimate Chaos, I wouldn't think the Yellow Ball would grant that power. I agree with Josh here. Mechanically speaking, the safest assumption is that it doesn't do anything here, but certainly Jeff could clarify otherwise for this to be an exception