kamilion
commented
6 years ago A snip from ##Atari on irc.freenode.net, from the latest braindump and progress report:
[22:14:05] <Kamilion> o hay guys
[22:14:20] <Kamilion> someone just sent me a link to something really juicy in ##electronics
[22:14:46] <Kamilion> https://www.flashair-developers.com/en/
[22:15:07] <Kamilion> toshiba licensebought eye fi wifi SD cards
[22:15:17] <+SteveS_afk> raphnet doesn't seem to have DIY controller instructions/firmware any longer
[22:15:24] <Kamilion> and their fourth gen cards can do all kinds of shit
[22:15:29] <Kamilion> including an FTP server!
[22:15:58] <Kamilion> https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-FlashAir-Generation-Wifi-memory/dp/B072SN7QK6/
[22:16:01] <+SteveS_afk> uploads and downloads?
[22:16:18] <Kamilion> yep, 90MB/sec card, and 35-40mbit wifi
[22:16:26] <+SteveS_afk> nice
[22:16:40] <Kamilion> i JUST bought a pair
[22:16:49] <Kamilion> one for the fancy DSLR for work
[22:16:51] <Kamilion> one for fun
[22:17:00] <+SteveS_afk> would be nice to be able to eliminate the "sneaker net" aspect of SD cards
[22:17:17] <Kamilion> $30 card for 16GB ain't so bad
[22:17:27] <Kamilion> $40 for 32GB
[22:18:07] <+SteveS_afk> how does that compare to ordinary SD cards? (I haven't checked prices in a long time)
[22:18:19] <Kamilion> the warning I got in ##electronics is that the only thing you can't do, is delete files over FTP, there's a chance of corruption
[22:18:38] <Kamilion> SteveS: 50 cents to a buck a gig for smaller ones
[22:18:49] <Kamilion> $20 for a 32GB usb/microsd
[22:19:09] <+SteveS_afk> ok so roughly double the cost gets you wifi functionality too. not bad
[22:19:13] <Kamilion> $10ish for a decent 16GB microsd
[22:19:15] <BillyHW> Oh yea...hundreds of TG16 games....
[22:19:26] <Kamilion> these are full size SD though
[22:19:34] <+SteveS_afk> right
[22:19:42] <+SteveS_afk> I hate microSD anyway
[22:19:46] <Kamilion> but even in my own designs I use full size SD slots
[22:19:56] <Kamilion> and advise people to use microsd adapters
[22:20:10] <Kamilion> "just buy a sandisk" is my normal answer
[22:20:13] <+SteveS_afk> always did but now it's worse now that I have arthritis
[22:20:18] <Kamilion> it comes with the full size SD adapter
[22:20:20] sashapont [~sashapont@IP.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined ##Atari
[22:20:37] <Kamilion> yeah, I take a lot of concerns like that seriously
[22:20:50] <Kamilion> i've mentioned I'm making something close to a game console, myself.
[22:21:19] <Kamilion> full size SD is a choice there for not only low cost, but also folks like you that may have reduced dexterity.
[22:21:44] <Kamilion> if you "REALLY" want cards that don't stick out
[22:21:58] <Kamilion> there's some 'half length' cards from the raspberry pi that will do that
[22:22:52] <Kamilion> 
[22:22:56] <Kamilion> ^ like this
[22:23:31] <Kamilion> they got more smart later.
[22:23:32] <Kamilion> 
[22:24:08] <Kamilion> https://www.adafruit.com/product/1569
[22:24:20] <+SteveS_afk> oh cool
[22:24:30] <Kamilion> so that's what I'm designing around
[22:24:40] <Kamilion> full size cards will stick out like warts
[22:24:55] <Kamilion> but I'm putting them directly over USB "controller" ports
[22:25:11] <Kamilion> and mounting them on a daughterboard, at a 30 degree angle
[22:25:23] <Kamilion> they'll resemble "eyebrows" for the player 1 and player 4 port.
[22:25:35] <Kamilion> and the access LEDs will be under software control
[22:25:49] <+SteveS_afk> I like the socket on the PCB too
[22:25:53] <Kamilion> one of the "accessories" I'm planning is a USB webcam that just plugs into one of the controller port
[22:26:08] <Kamilion> with two, you can plug them into port 1 and 4 and it has stereo vision
[22:26:30] <Kamilion> so now you can use this 3.5Ghz AMD64 4/8 core mini-PC as the head of a robot.
[22:26:50] Kamilion chuckles
[22:27:15] <Kamilion> Robbie-Genesis-for-a-Head
[22:27:53] <Kamilion> 
<--- this is very close to what I want the final product to look like
[22:28:21] <Kamilion> the "sega CD" would contain a normal PCI Express GPU, like an nvidia or AMD or something
[22:29:06] <Kamilion> and the top would undock from it, and contain the AMD64 processor, DDR4 memory, and the daughterboard for the video ports, and USB ports.
[22:29:23] <Kamilion> which is where the two 2.5" SATA slots also live
[22:29:27] <Kamilion> for using normal laptop SSDs
[22:29:46] <Kamilion> the top slot will still exist
[22:29:58] <Kamilion> the slot itself will be normal bog-standard PCI Express X8.
[22:30:26] <BillyHW> That SegaCD front loader was beautiful.
[22:30:29] <+SteveS_afk> oh. getting late. guess I will say good night
[22:30:33] <+SteveS_afk> good night
[22:30:35] <+SteveS_afk> :P
[22:30:35] <Kamilion> i've talked to a few semiconductor companies about getting mask roms
[22:30:42] <Kamilion> $35 gets 480GB.
[22:30:46] <Kamilion> isn't that insane?
[22:31:15] <Kamilion> (spread across an 11-chip board, with a 12th controller chip)
[22:32:05] <Kamilion> 
[22:32:07] <Kamilion> ^
[22:32:26] <Kamilion> this is pretty much what you'd see if you popped a cartridge open
[22:32:32] <Kamilion> only it wouldn't be flash
[22:32:35] <Kamilion> it'd be mask rom
[22:33:01] <Kamilion> 
[22:33:31] <Kamilion> And of course, you can still stick one of these flash SSDs in a cartridge shell too
[22:33:35] <Kamilion> it's just more spensive
[22:33:40] <Kamilion> but rewritable
[22:33:52] <Kamilion> which is how the first ones I'll sell will be
[22:34:02] <Kamilion> and I conclude now.
[22:34:11] <Kamilion> easy enough to understand?
[22:34:50] <Kamilion> "I have found the secret to make cheap read only cartridges come back"
[22:35:19] <Kamilion> and the machine to play them will be nothing more than an off the shelf AMD processor and some off the shelf sticks of ram.
[22:35:58] <Kamilion> here are some shitty illustrations.
[22:36:03] <Kamilion> With the GPU dock:
[22:36:03] <Kamilion> 
[22:36:22] <Kamilion> without the GPU docked:
[22:36:23] <Kamilion> 
[22:36:46] <Kamilion> the black slot connector is for the daughterboard with the actual ports on it
[22:36:57] <Kamilion> the green one goes to the GPU in the lower bay.
[22:37:24] <Kamilion> other than that, it's a literal clone of the sega cd in modern technology.
[22:38:23] <Kamilion> which means anyone is free to do crazy shit like the 32X
[22:39:51] <Kamilion> 
[22:40:06] <Kamilion> well, that wasn't much bigger than the thumbnail, lol
[22:40:22] <Kamilion> 
[22:40:27] <Kamilion> There we go.
[22:40:30] <BillyHW> I have a 32x emulator now!
[22:40:33] <BillyHW> Huzzah!
[22:40:45] <Kamilion> but wouldn't having a PC like that be awesome?
[22:40:58] <Kamilion> like the MSX2 revived for a second coming
[22:41:05] <Kamilion> that's my goal
[22:41:15] <Kamilion> MSX/MSX2 was only a spec
[22:41:24] <Kamilion> hundreds of manufacturers implimented it, all over the world
[22:41:37] <Kamilion> the only place it wasn't popular was america, land of commodore and atari.
[22:42:02] <Kamilion> and the UK/bordering countries, which were either BBC or atari/amiga
[22:42:39] <Kamilion> it's almost hilarious that the IBM PC clone spec caught on more than the MSX did
[22:43:40] <Kamilion> 
[22:44:29] <Kamilion> 
[22:45:06] blakespot__ [~ta_blake@IP] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 268 seconds
[22:45:53] <Kamilion> even yamaha made them
[22:45:54] <Kamilion> 
[22:46:18] <Kamilion> like an ST from another planet
[22:48:41] <Kamilion> 
[22:51:51] <Kamilion> like, right now everyone's trying to go small
[22:51:52] <Kamilion> https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/16/behold-its-the-tiniest-mame-cabinet-in-the-galaxy/
[22:52:33] <Kamilion> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O0DeRL7P-w
[22:53:17] <Kamilion> it's absolutely adorable... but... SteveS is never going to be able to play that :(
[22:54:01] <BillyHW> cute
[22:54:22] <Kamilion> but not very usable
[22:56:07] <Kamilion> as for the case, I found a guy that vacuforms aluminium sheet, laser cuts gaps out, and folds really smart looking curved top cases from a single sheet
[22:57:22] <Kamilion> before that I was going for a dumbass pedestrian design
[22:57:23] <Kamilion> 
[22:57:34] <Kamilion> 
[22:57:51] <Kamilion> pretty much a poorly thought out clone of a gen2 genesis, I guess?
[22:58:06] <Kamilion> big expensive 10 layer PCB, all going to waste
[22:58:29] <Kamilion> so i put the CPU on a daughterboard
[22:58:39] <Kamilion> which then became the motherboard...
[22:58:52] <Kamilion> and all the ports now live on exchangable daughterboards
[22:59:03] <Kamilion> so the ports live inside the casing
[22:59:11] <Kamilion> and you push the CPU module up from below
[22:59:20] <Kamilion> or, down from above, when it's upside down
[22:59:42] <Kamilion> that 'specializes' the CPU module/motherboard while it's in place
[22:59:59] <Kamilion> cause all the firmware chips and shit live on the daughterboard with the ports
[23:00:27] <Kamilion> there's nothing on the CPU module itself but the socket, ram sockets, and power delivery to the socket.
[23:00:50] <Kamilion> so just on it's own, you can buy, right now, an AM4 motherboard for $49
[23:01:31] <Kamilion> all I'm doing is breaking this $50 board in half.
[23:01:32] <Kamilion> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157767
[23:02:18] sashapont [~sashapont@IP.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has left ##Atari
[23:02:59] <Kamilion> BillyHW: incidentally, if you wanted to build a cheap desktop, it can be done with one of those, the $99 CPU coming out on feb 12th (with graphics) a $50 stick of ram, a $50 case-with-power-supply, and a $75 SSD
[23:03:23] <Kamilion> probably about $350ish
[23:03:35] <Kamilion> no intel bug
[23:04:33] <Kamilion> it's six screws to mount the motherboard to the case, putting the CPU in the socket, putting the RAM stick in, latching the CPU cooler over the socket, clipping the SSD in, and closing the case.
[23:04:52] <Kamilion> you've just built a windows/linux computer.
[23:05:16] <Kamilion> put in a USB stick with an installer, and install onto the SSD. bam.
[23:06:04] <Kamilion> this is the case I'm using for my build
[23:06:05] <Kamilion> http://www.mini-box.com/M350-universal-mini-itx-enclosure
[23:06:21] <Kamilion> i got a smaller motherboard than the one I linked at newegg.
[23:06:41] <Kamilion> 
[23:07:02] <Kamilion> this will be the "first" prototype for the game console
[23:07:44] <Kamilion> the motherboard I bought was $99 and had built in wifi
[23:08:24] <Kamilion> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157780
[23:08:27] <Kamilion> it's not on sale now.
[23:08:31] <Kamilion> it should show up on monday.
[23:08:59] <BillyHW> Pretty amazing how much computing power we can get these days for so cheap.
[23:09:16] <Kamilion> yeah, this one's only 4 screws. :)
[23:09:57] <Kamilion> still, kind of a rediculous motherboard, eh?
[23:10:10] <Kamilion> they even put a steel cover thing over the video card slot
[23:11:15] <Kamilion> but like, if you can build one of these from off the shelf parts for $350, I should be able to hit $299 for a "ready to go" version.
[23:11:24] <Kamilion> dontcha think?
[23:12:17] <Kamilion> just with basic savings from buying in quantity, I could probably do that
[23:12:41] <BillyHW> yeah
[23:12:51] <Kamilion> pfft
[23:12:57] <Kamilion> gold plating on the audio jacks
[23:13:01] <Kamilion> I didn't even notice that
[23:13:02] <Kamilion> but okay
[23:13:04] <Kamilion> sure
[23:13:20] <Kamilion> and they're really proud of their genuine nichicon audio capacitors
[23:13:52] <Kamilion> it's even got several surge protectors on it?!
[23:13:56] <Kamilion> "Full Spike Protection"
[23:14:42] <Kamilion> hah, i bet all that means is "we put all the expensive components behind a power regulator rail, which will blow up before the parts do"
[23:15:26] <Kamilion> anyway, i should be prepped for when the CPU is released on feb 12th
[23:15:41] <Kamilion> and I'll report back once I've gotten a hold of it approx a week or two later.
[23:16:17] <Kamilion> however, I will point one thing out
[23:16:24] <Kamilion> i bought this board for one reason
[23:16:25] <Kamilion> 
[23:16:43] <Kamilion> that little box thing next to the slot and red heatsink is a socket for the BIOS firmware chip
[23:17:08] <Kamilion> which means I can just eject the chip and put another one in to 'test' my firmware hacks.
[23:17:44] <Kamilion> because that chip is where the 'game consoleness' comes from, instead of just being a windows PC clone
[23:18:11] <Kamilion> this thing has to start up without any disks to something like the atari ST
[23:18:57] <Kamilion> with a mouse and hopefully (if I can compile a small enough build of QT5) the qupzilla html5 browser.
[23:19:17] <Kamilion> even without adding any storage at all, it should still be useful!!!
[23:19:32] <Kamilion> no SSD, no USB
[23:19:50] <Kamilion> just starting up from scratch into a graphical desktop
[23:20:19] <Kamilion> you want windows? plug in a windows installer USB, and it'll make a windows VM for you.
[23:20:52] <Kamilion> cause this thing is going to start a hypervisor right from the firmware
[23:21:02] <Kamilion> *EVERYTHING* will be "just another VM"
[23:21:21] <Kamilion> (thank god for xen's GPU passthrough)
[23:21:56] <Kamilion> also, these AMD CPUs support setting 256 bit encryption keys for sections of the DDR4 memory
[23:22:02] <Kamilion> up to 16 keys
[23:22:19] <Kamilion> for 16 independantly encrypted blocks of physical memory
[23:22:33] <Kamilion> TL;DR: I have a 16 VM limit.
[23:22:55] <Kamilion> SPECTRE and Meltdown are completely prevented because by default, I'm just gonna turn memory encryption on :3
[23:23:26] <Kamilion> (which the VM will not notice)
[23:23:50] <Kamilion> but that means that no VM can invade eachother's memory without first somehow stealing the keys from hardware
[23:24:19] <Kamilion> so your windows VM from sticking a USB installer in will never conflict with a VM game from say, konami.
[23:24:45] <Kamilion> Metal Gear 6 and a half, grenade launchers of truthsmoke
[23:26:10] <Kamilion> (this also means that any VM can be suspended and resumed at any time)
[23:26:26] <Kamilion> SAVESTATES FOR EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYTHINGGGGGGGGGGGG!
[23:28:11] Kamilion has ventured down many roads of thought to make an uberconsole
[23:33:47] <BillyHW> It will be cool.
[23:34:31] <Kamilion> BillyHW: check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulb1CTV6F2I
[23:35:25] <Kamilion> this is the reason I am going with a curved top
[23:35:40] <Kamilion> it's silly, but when he explains it, it makes *SENSE*, damnit.
[23:37:09] <Kamilion> rest in peace, Shigeru Miyamoto... may your vision of fun for all be eternal and full of joy.
[23:38:39] <BillyHW> The American controllers were actually slightly better with the concave and convex buttons..
[23:38:40] <Kamilion> but it really shows how thorough the designers thought things through.
[23:38:52] <BillyHW> made it easier to tell the difference by feel.
[23:39:16] <Kamilion> i got superfamicom controllers after playing with an asciipad for so long
[23:39:36] <Kamilion> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flq52HSL-04
[23:39:57] <Kamilion> that was my player 1 controller for a LONG time.
[23:41:06] <Kamilion> incidentally, that's also very similar to the design of the controller for the game console... <.<
[23:41:20] <Kamilion> an LCD will replace the switches on the asciipad's face.
[23:44:38] <Kamilion> 
[23:44:54] <Kamilion> it'll look like this, only it'll have four shoulder buttons
[23:45:04] <Kamilion> and the two top shoulder buttons will be mousewheels
[23:45:35] <Kamilion> click them to get the shoulder button.
[23:45:56] <Kamilion> the bottom two will be the normal analog squeezy buttons found on the playstation and xbox pads
[23:46:04] <Kamilion> cause they're sort of essential for driving games
[23:46:10] <Kamilion> gas and brake :)
[23:46:41] <Kamilion> i'm honestly suprised nobody's thought of putting a mousewheel in a controller before.
[23:47:18] <Kamilion> also, the wheels themselves will tilt for two extra buttons each
[23:47:54] <Kamilion> so you get five sources of up down left right
[23:48:13] <Kamilion> the main dpad, the two analog sticks, the two wheels scrolling and tilting.
[23:49:21] <Kamilion> plus the touchscreen LCD in the center (and an SD slot becuse why not bring back the sega dreamcast VME while I'm at it)
[23:50:19] <Kamilion> controller's based on an ESP32, so it'll have wifi on it's own
[23:50:45] <Kamilion> (which will be able to remote-start the console.)
[23:51:18] <Kamilion> (and remember multiple consoles to pair with/powerup)
[23:51:28] <Kamilion> perfect for pissy kids with "mine" syndrome
[23:51:48] <Kamilion> yes johnny, it's your controller, you don't have to give it back.
[23:51:51] <Kamilion> go play pokemon.
[23:53:27] <Kamilion> oh, the controller also has a microphone built into it, and a headphone jack.
[23:53:46] <Kamilion> if you plug a TRRS (apple) headset in, the mic will be live on that instead of the built in mic.
[23:53:57] <Kamilion> so each player gets their own unique audio output if they want
[23:54:13] <Kamilion> and us adult players can play in bed without disturbing the missus (or mistur)
[23:54:55] <Kamilion> or pair with your phone and talk into it like it was a phone handset, i don't care if you look dumb or not :D
[23:57:32] <Kamilion> also, since everything is a VM, including windows, and the system OS controls the bluetooth radio, you can use android and ios phones as a mouse
[23:57:41] <Kamilion> they'll show up as a USB touchpad to the VM.
[23:58:08] <BillyHW> You've given this a lot of thought I see.
[00:04:56] <BillyHW> Man this new mac reboots fast.
[00:05:04] <BillyHW> Must be the SSD.
[00:05:10] <Kamilion> yep
[00:05:17] <Kamilion> the PCIE ones can do almost 2GB/sec
[00:05:38] <Kamilion> and your 1TB has enough chips to span read/writes across to give you that level of performance.
[00:06:06] <Kamilion> it's actually the same form factor SSD as what I was showing up there
[00:06:39] <Kamilion>
[00:06:43] <Kamilion>
[00:07:10] <Kamilion> one of those is in your macbook right now :D
[00:07:36] <Kamilion> this is exactly why I'm going with off the shelf tech
[00:07:40] <BillyHW> Nice...I'm so happy to have a modern computer for once.
[00:07:43] <Kamilion> i can't keep up with it
[00:07:46] <Kamilion> so why try
[00:07:53] <Kamilion> just let the industry keep up with itself
[00:08:04] <BillyHW> Man, they look so small.
[00:08:07] <Kamilion> and if I don't propritarize anything, that should be the gift that keeps on giving
[00:08:41] <Kamilion> https://www.cultofmac.com/173421/new-macbook-pros-ssd-storage-can-be-upgraded-at-home/
[00:08:51] <Kamilion> apple started using this design around 2012
[00:09:15] <Kamilion> [00:09:27] <Kamilion> even the 2016s could take the SSD in yours.
[00:09:35] <Kamilion> but the SSDs have gotten faster!
[00:09:43] <Kamilion> the old ones just put a SATA controller chip on the board
[00:09:55] <Kamilion> the new ones are direct PCIE attached flash, with no SATA 6gbit/12gbit limits
[00:10:08] <Kamilion> the standard is called NVME
[00:11:53] <Kamilion> so you could take one of these newer near 2 gigaBYTE per second SSDs and plug them into a macbook from 2012 for a boost
[00:12:00] <Kamilion> :)
[00:12:10] <Kamilion> PCI express is amazingly awesome.
[00:12:53] <BillyHW> Okay...glad to know...yeah, under System Report it says PCIe.
[00:12:55] <Kamilion> and I am standing on the shoulders of supergiants
[00:13:03] <Kamilion> so i should probably use that
[00:13:13] <Kamilion> and not go my own way too far :)
[00:13:14] <BillyHW> Actually says "PCI-Express"
[00:13:30] <Kamilion> yep, PCIE/PCIe/pcie is the shorthand for pci express
[00:13:49] <BillyHW> One fucking Terabyte...unfucking believable how far we've come.
[00:13:57] <BillyHW> Atari games are like 4K bytes.
[00:13:58] <Kamilion> the newest AMDs even use it for the bus between the processor and the chipset now
[00:14:15] <Kamilion> before it's always been some propritary high speed vendor specific bus
[00:14:26] <Kamilion> AMD had hypertransport, intel had DMI and frontside bus and a bunch of others
[00:14:56] <Kamilion> everything has converged onto it
[00:14:58] <BillyHW> It says the Radeon is connected via "PCEe"
[00:15:06] <Kamilion> everything is, billy
[00:15:10] <Kamilion> even your USB controllers
[00:15:20] <BillyHW> So why is PCIe so good?
[00:15:31] <Kamilion> oh, easy
[00:15:42] <Kamilion> So first, PCI Express is not a parallel bus
[00:15:53] <Kamilion> not like the atari
[00:16:05] <Kamilion> instead, there are PCI Express links
[00:16:16] <Kamilion> a pair of conductors
[00:16:32] <Kamilion> one goes negative, the other goes positive at the same instant
[00:16:40] <Kamilion> so RF can't really interfere
[00:16:46] <Kamilion> it would hit one or the other
[00:17:02] <Kamilion> PCIe has a number of these serial links
[00:17:23] <Kamilion> in consumer devices, 16 links (X16), 8 links (x8), 4 links (x4) and 1 link (x1)
[00:17:41] <Kamilion> then there's four different generations of PCIE
[00:17:55] <Kamilion> each generation doubles the data rate of the generation before
[00:18:17] <Kamilion> so now you can get the same bandwidth you got from an X16 in an X8 in from gen1 to gen2
[00:18:25] <Kamilion> and from X8 to X4 in gen3
[00:18:40] <BillyHW> There's also something here about NVMExpress.
[00:18:42] <Kamilion> and from X4 to X2 (which isn't seen)
[00:18:47] <BillyHW> Which X do I have?
[00:18:56] <Kamilion> yep Non-Volatile Memory Express
[00:19:03] <Kamilion> Flash-over-PCIE
[00:19:23] <Kamilion> BillyHW: well, each device is different like USB 1.1 vs USB 2.0 vs USB 3.0
[00:19:31] <BillyHW> Says x4.
[00:19:41] <BillyHW> 8.0 GT/s
[00:19:42] <Kamilion> that's link width, but not generation
[00:19:44] <BillyHW> What's a GT?
[00:19:49] <Kamilion> gigatransfer
[00:19:58] <Kamilion> sec, lemme look up which generation that corresponds to
[00:20:32] <BillyHW> Link width = x4. Link speed = 8.0 GT/s
[00:20:34] <Kamilion> gen3
[00:20:35] <Kamilion> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#History_and_revisions
[00:20:36] <Atari800XL> [WIKIPEDIA] PCI Express#History and revisions | "PCI Express (Peripheral Component Interconnect Express), officially abbreviated as PCIe or PCI-e, is a high-speed serial computer expansion bus standard, designed to replace the older PCI, PCI-X, and AGP bus standards. PCIe has numerous improvements over the older standards, including higher maximum..."
[00:20:43] <Kamilion> 3.94 GB/s
[00:20:50] <Kamilion> capital B so that's bytes
[00:21:15] <Kamilion> which is the same bandwith as a PCI Express X16 slot from generation 1
[00:21:51] <Kamilion> I THINK there might have been a 3DFX video card that just barely held out long enough to have a PCIE X16 gen 1 slot instead of AGP
[00:21:59] <Kamilion> one of the voodoo5s maybe
[00:22:13] <Kamilion> to give you a bit of an idea of how long ago that was... 15 years, maybe?
[00:22:32] <Kamilion> oh yeah, duh, PCIE 1.0 introduced in 2003
[00:22:49] <Kamilion> so anyway
[00:22:56] <Kamilion> each link is a serial port UART in it's own right
[00:23:02] <Kamilion> so an X16 is really more like 16 uarts
[00:23:21] <Kamilion> and PCIE is serviced by a root port switch
[00:23:36] <Kamilion> which allows DMA to occur (and is technically dangerous because of this)
[00:24:06] <Kamilion> USB itself does NOT allow real DMA to occur
[00:24:16] <Kamilion> it is possible to fill it's buffers WITH DMA
[00:24:32] <Kamilion> but you don't get arbitrary control over the bus or the address
[00:24:45] <Kamilion> it's the odd man out
[00:24:48] <Kamilion> firewire DOES allow DMA
[00:24:54] <Kamilion> thunderbolt DOES allow DMA
[00:25:18] <Kamilion> (Thunderbolt is actually just PCI express X4 down a cable!)
[00:25:49] <Kamilion> but because apple fetishized it, it never showed up on normal PCs
[00:26:05] <Kamilion> USB-type C killed it
[00:26:32] <Kamilion> as thunderbolt3 switched to the USB type-C port
[00:26:45] <Kamilion> which also incidentally killed off displayport's own connector too!
[00:26:51] <Kamilion> now displayport uses USB type C!
[00:27:32] <Kamilion> which also means because TB3 was added, some USB3.1 controllers like the one in the macbook you have ARE suddenly vulernable to DMA based peripheral attacks
[00:27:37] <Kamilion> like thundergate
[00:27:47] <BillyHW> Everything seems to be going USB-C now.
[00:27:51] <BillyHW> It's even showing up in new cars.
[00:27:57] <Kamilion> https://github.com/sstjohn/thundergate
[00:28:00] <Kamilion> ^ this is super fun
[00:28:08] <Kamilion> it's an exploit for the apple thunderbolt gigabit adapter
[00:28:30] <Kamilion> which will rewrite the ethernet controller firmware's network boot flash area
[00:28:42] <Kamilion> and since DMA is allowed
[00:28:53] <Kamilion> IT CAN DUMP THE HOST'S RAM.
[00:29:03] <Kamilion> including any keys or passwords that may contain
[00:29:16] <Kamilion> how do you fight that, you ask?
[00:29:39] <Kamilion> Well, I already told you. Those recent AMD chips have 16 memory encryption slots, if I force them on, that problem class goes away entirely. :D
[00:30:22] <Kamilion> DMA traffic is NOT subject to encryption
[00:30:34] <Kamilion> and must occur in unencrypted regions of physical memory
[00:30:58] <Kamilion> thus all it will see is the encrypted version in physical memory if it wanders out of bounds
[00:31:20] <Kamilion> if it writes out of bounds, well, that'll corrupt something somewhere, but you'll have a fuck of a time guessing what that is
[00:31:53] <Kamilion> so you can DDoS the hardware by random writes, but that's pretty much it, as far as I've been able to calculate.
[00:32:17] <Kamilion> and the hypervisor should have denied you access to that anyway
[00:32:28] <Kamilion> so that's assuming you got past it somehow too
[00:32:53] <Kamilion> all I did was stack the legos "the right way"
[00:33:45] <Kamilion> hats off to AMD for actually making all this shit work under the hood.
[00:34:53] <Kamilion> also, from my work in security, normal "EFI" bios firmware from modern machines has all kinds of callin points that windows uses
[00:35:23] <Kamilion> i can't afford to license all that!
[00:35:29] <Kamilion> so I won't :D
[00:35:44] <Kamilion> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iffTJ1vPCSo
[00:35:57] <Kamilion> "Replace Your Exploit-Ridden Firmware with Linux - Ronald Minnich, Google"
[00:36:33] <Kamilion> and they get rid of the "system management mode" calls that windows makes
[00:36:41] <Kamilion> or that a laptop platform makes
[00:36:54] <Kamilion> when you say, shut the lid, or plug the AC in, or flip the RF kill switch.
[00:37:05] <Kamilion> or that crazy OLED bar your macbook has.
[00:37:20] <BillyHW> This touch bar is bullshit
[00:37:44] <Kamilion> adobe after effects and premier support it, you can put video editor controls on it
[00:38:01] <Kamilion> and move around in a fullscreen video stream at 4K
[00:38:18] <Kamilion> that's honestly the only possible reason I can see for justifying it's existance to pros
[00:38:32] <Kamilion> as for the rest of us? I guess you can use it to launch safari lol
[00:38:54] <BillyHW> Basically everything that used to take one click to do something now takes 2 or 3.
[00:38:59] <Kamilion> meanwhile, me putting an LCD in a controller makes sense
[00:39:01] <BillyHW> If it still works at all.
[00:39:11] <Kamilion> if only to choose what to connect to
[00:39:29] <Kamilion> plus it's also a makeshift tiny mouse touchpad.
[00:39:42] <BillyHW> They were trying to be "innovative".
[00:39:44] sashapont [~sashapont@IP.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined ##Atari
[00:40:06] <Kamilion> it's cheaper for me to get a $5 screen with a captouch overlay than it is to just do what PSVita did and put a captouch sensor on the controller
[00:40:50] <Kamilion> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plOW5T_VsIo
[00:41:04] <Kamilion> sony put a touchpad on the back of the PSVita
[00:41:50] <Kamilion> i never had a vita
[00:41:56] <Kamilion> i had the original PSP with the optical drive
[00:42:14] <Kamilion> the vita dropped the optical drive for this touchpad thing
[00:42:50] <BillyHW> Does Sony still have a portable out?
[00:42:57] <BillyHW> Or have they given up on that?
[00:42:59] <Kamilion> i don't think so?
[00:43:06] <Kamilion> i think the vita was the last dedicated one
[00:43:20] <BillyHW> So is the Switch the only quasi portable still out?
[00:43:22] <Kamilion> now the have playstation phone through the sony ericson brand
[00:43:36] <Kamilion> but that's just an android with a dpad and face buttons
[00:43:49] <Kamilion> yes, switch and various android devices.
[00:43:55] <Kamilion> of which the switch is almost one
[00:44:11] <Kamilion> because it's predecessor, the nvidia shield, based on that SAME CHIP, was running android.
[00:44:27] <Kamilion> the switch, however, has 4GB of RAM
[00:44:33] <Kamilion> and makes wonderful use of it.
[00:44:42] <Kamilion> hats off to nintendo for that one
[00:44:42] <BillyHW> I guess phones have taken over portable gaming.
[00:44:48] <Kamilion> load everything into a ramdisk
[00:44:51] <BillyHW> The touch screen controls suck though.
[00:44:55] <Kamilion> yes
[00:45:14] <Kamilion> so i'm just gonna shove a 320x240 LCD into the front of the controller
[00:45:17] <Kamilion> and use it's touchpad.
[00:45:24] <Kamilion> cheaper that using a touchpad
[00:45:33] <Kamilion> like from synaptics or ALPS
[00:45:35] <BillyHW> The Switch uses a RAMdisk?
[00:45:45] <Kamilion> BillyHW: pretty much
[00:46:01] <Kamilion> the nvidia maxwell GPU and the ARM share memory space
[00:46:14] <Kamilion> there's no separation like in a PC between main memory and VRAM
[00:46:23] <Kamilion> nor any need to transfer texture data back and forth
[00:46:49] <Kamilion> so for all intents and purpouses, you can think of the switch as running 3/4ths of the game from a ramdisk.
[00:47:05] <Kamilion> sometimes it has to hit storage for some new level geometry
[00:47:10] <Kamilion> or a fresh set of textures
[00:47:20] <Kamilion> but the ARM cpu can be doing that while the GPU's busy drawing and doing physics
[00:47:46] <Kamilion> for the most part though, this thing is built on simulating 3D space in memory
[00:48:13] <Kamilion> hence why breath of the wild looks so gorgeous
[00:48:26] <Kamilion> there's no split between the graphics processing and the classical CPU
[00:48:41] <Kamilion> it's all one contiguous 4GB
[00:48:59] <Kamilion> plus that keeps power usage low
[00:49:07] <Kamilion> writing to flash eats battery
[00:49:17] <Kamilion> keeping the flash powered up all the time to read it does too
[00:49:41] <Kamilion> so i've heard the switch's OS uses aggressive power management to shut things it isn't using *right now* off.
[00:49:56] <Kamilion> flopping a transistor, no power to that section of the chip
[00:50:01] <Kamilion> gated off
[00:50:03] <Kamilion> shut down
[00:50:07] <Kamilion> vacant of electrical flow
[00:50:34] <Kamilion> even individual chunks of GPU section
[00:50:56] <Kamilion> if it's only using 5 of the shader chunks, it can gate off the rest and save power.
[00:51:12] <Kamilion> but all of that was there in the nvidia shield
[00:51:19] <Kamilion> android simply didn't use it
[00:51:28] <Kamilion> well, it did, a bit
[00:51:32] <Kamilion> it's not like it ignored it
[00:51:53] <Kamilion> but they didn't go out of their way to fuck around getting linux to run well on it to make android as seamless as the switch's custom OS is.
[00:52:11] <Kamilion> nintendo is running on the raw hardware, no android, no linux
[00:52:22] <Kamilion> but they're no stranger to this
[00:52:34] <Kamilion> after all, the original Gameboy Advance was a 32Mhz ARM!
[00:52:48] <Kamilion> they already know how to squeese an ARM for all it's worth
[00:53:12] <Kamilion> and there's plenty of PC devs that know how to squeese nvidia GPU code
[00:53:22] <Kamilion> BAM! SWITCH!
[00:53:55] <Kamilion> plus nintendo finally loosened their asshole about indie developers
[00:54:32] <Kamilion> now you just need to pay $799 for a developer switch, download unity3d or unreal engine 4, and register your developer ID with them to get access to build Switch game images.
[00:55:12] <Kamilion> anybody can now develop and publish nintendo games for less than a thousand dollars.
[00:55:36] <Kamilion> and doubly so to the indie developers who have already been using Unreal Engine 4 and Unity3D!
[00:56:04] Kamilion claps
[00:56:15] <Kamilion> nintendo has made it INCREDIBLY hard to compete in the space.
[00:56:43] <Kamilion> all that exists is android and ios, and neither of them do switch quality
[00:56:56] <Kamilion> they could, if only google had listened to me 8 years ago
[00:57:12] <Kamilion> when I asked for a phone with 8GB of ram instead of 8GB of flash
[00:57:31] <Kamilion> large amounts of fast ram is the key
[00:57:36] <Kamilion> ramdisk, ramdisk, ramdisk, ramdisk.
[00:57:57] <Kamilion> I use it for my VM environment, Kamikazi, too. (where linux calls it tmpfs)
[00:58:45] <Kamilion> which is why my game console will feature as many DDR4 slots as the processor will allow (4)
[00:59:02] <Kamilion> if you want to put 128GB of ram in your machine *BE MY GUEST*
[00:59:18] <Kamilion> four 32GB sticks of RAM will be costly now, but not in five years.
[00:59:36] <Kamilion> i'm not going to hobble someone with 4GB now and leave them hanging with that in 2022
[01:00:05] <Kamilion> modern game engines on PC hardware are fine with max memory being different from machine to machine
[01:00:11] <Kamilion> so while a stock machine in 2018 might come with a pair of 8GBs, that won't be forever.
[01:00:46] <Kamilion> and with the VM setup I specify, technically you CAN leave more than one game running at any given time
[01:01:02] <Kamilion> play an online mmo and an offline fighting game while your busy farming
[01:01:29] <Kamilion> or a windows/linux desktop VM
[01:01:31] Kamilion shrugs
[01:01:42] <Kamilion> maybe someone will even figure out how to make OSX work
[01:01:52] <Kamilion> but I kinda doubt that; at least, not the newest versions.
[01:01:55] <BillyHW> What would the game play like differently with more RAM?
[01:01:58] <BillyHW> vs less RAM?
[01:02:10] <Kamilion> well, if the entire game itself is 6GB, and you have 8GB of ram
[01:02:14] <Kamilion> what does that tell you?
[01:02:35] <Kamilion> the entire game resources on disk can simply be shoved into ram
[01:02:52] <Kamilion> and no level progress bars occur
[01:03:02] <Kamilion> LOADING... is a split second
[01:03:26] <Kamilion> progress bars do the little compute thing and immediately succeed at loading any file they ask for
[01:03:34] <Kamilion> "OK, that's now mmaped into your virtual space"
[01:03:42] <Kamilion> right into the physical page of the ramdisk.
[01:04:00] <Kamilion> it's something PC games don't do right now
[01:04:06] <Kamilion> mostly because windows is in the way
[01:04:32] <Kamilion> and the game loading progress bars are tracking which files are loaded from disk and processed
[01:04:52] <Kamilion> stutters from having to go and fetch texture data from storage go away
[01:05:12] <Kamilion> the same is true of my mask rom cartridges
[01:05:28] <Kamilion> because the hypervisor supports something called PCIE Passthrough
[01:05:38] <Kamilion> a PCIE device can be "assigned" to a VM
[01:05:59] <Kamilion> so the contents of the cartridge may be directly mmapped and DO NOT NEED TO BE loaded into RAM
[01:06:21] <Kamilion> so now you've got a shitton more ram free because I've given you a massive read only ramdisk if a cartridge is plugged in.
[01:06:33] <Kamilion> same shit as atari from the 80s.
[01:06:39] <Kamilion> bigger address space.
[01:06:42] <Kamilion> :)
[01:06:52] <Kamilion> if it's a good idea, IT SHOULD BE STOLEN FROM
[01:07:35] <Kamilion> if I collect enough of them together under a single patent with a full claim list, none of them can touch me in court
[01:07:57] <Kamilion> as I have to meet each of their claims to qualify as infringing their patent :3
[01:08:10] <Kamilion> (AND I CAN CLAIM PRIOR ART ON ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MINE!)
[01:08:23] <Kamilion> right down to the old expired patent numbers
[01:08:36] <Kamilion> like, by the way, did you know that MP3 is currently not encumbered by patents anymore?
[01:08:47] <Kamilion> the last one expired in 2016... hehehehe
[01:09:35] <Kamilion> but the atari ST and the sega genesis are my two biggest inspirations
[01:09:39] <Kamilion> the 68000 heros
[01:09:56] <Kamilion> may they live long and YM forever
[01:11:17] <Kamilion> incidentally, that one singular patent would also get donated to the OIN, a patent pool that will fight any patent shark attackers with excommunication from their huge list of 18,000 patents :D
[01:11:49] Kamilion isn't planning on making very much money on this at all
[01:12:05] <Kamilion> I'm doing it because I love you all and you deserve better
[01:12:19] <Kamilion> and that will end up with me making some money. A lot more money than I'm making right now.
[01:12:37] <Kamilion> but the money isn't the goal and never will be as long as I'm in charge
[01:13:01] <Kamilion> providing the customer an experience worth more than mere money can by
[01:13:05] <Kamilion> *buy
[01:13:25] <Kamilion> that feeling you got from the ataris being top of the line
[01:13:38] <Kamilion> Power Without The Price
[01:14:04] <Kamilion> the atari ethos still lives strong in this individual.
[01:15:12] <Kamilion> the amigas may have had the better specs and the fancier custom chips, but the ST accomplished so much with plain old off the shelf chips. I have even more respect for it because of that factor.
[01:15:23] <Kamilion> same with the apple macintosh
[01:15:35] <Kamilion> they went too custom
[01:15:42] <Kamilion> they did cool things
[01:15:46] <Kamilion> but it cost too much
[01:16:22] <Kamilion> that fact is not lost on me
[01:21:16] <BillyHW> Yeah...
[01:21:27] <BillyHW> The ST was cool in that way.
[01:22:30] <Kamilion> i can always respect people that have external limits more than the people who don't limit themselves
[01:22:48] <Kamilion> "cash is no object" is not the way I ever want to live
[01:24:59] <Kamilion> EVERY kid deserves to be a mario kid and have that hand-eye coordination skill set
[01:26:18] <Kamilion> and of course, with enough tinkering, every piece of historical educational software can probably be made to work in it's hardware
[01:26:34] <Kamilion> one laptop per child for the masses.
[01:26:49] <Kamilion> not bullshit subsidised shitware for african children
[01:26:55] <Kamilion> EVERYONE.
[01:27:38] <Kamilion> (OLPC was a good project though -- it's meshed network idea was 10 years ahead of it's time)
[01:27:58] <Kamilion> and had a hand crank so no power was needed
[01:28:08] <Kamilion> so they were absolutely innovative where they could be
[01:28:25] <Kamilion> (I have a solution for that too! I call it a bag of rocks!)
[01:29:04] <Kamilion> [01:29:52] <Kamilion> or water jugs, or anything heavy that can be geared down to spin a DC motor
[01:30:01] <Kamilion> if you have 12V you can rule the world
[01:32:36] <Kamilion> Oh, also, that reminds me, the mask rom's slack space (unused space at the end) will be filled not with padding, but with a downloaded wikipedia archive
[01:32:56] <Kamilion> so every cartridge will come with free knowledge too!
[01:33:07] <Kamilion> take THAT, corporate america!
[01:33:25] <Kamilion> no, really, take it, make a million of them, a billion of them
[01:33:48] <BillyHW> neat
[01:34:01] <Kamilion> every office should have one
[01:34:07] <Kamilion> every TV should have a slot for one
[01:34:35] <Kamilion> it's time for IBM PC Clone to be killed off as the dinosaur it is
[01:34:47] <Kamilion> may it live on in the memory of Virtual Machines
[01:35:49] <Kamilion> And all of the security should be like a 50 foot thick glass/plastic transparent vault
[01:36:11] <Kamilion> you can see every transparent gear, every metal bar, every blinking light
[01:36:38] <Kamilion> and if I can't explain it to a teenager, it shouldn't be in there.
[01:37:20] <Kamilion> everyone should understand the usefulness of a first class lever by now
[01:39:09] <Kamilion> i'm sick of computers being stupid and unhelpful.
[01:39:27] <Kamilion> it's time they become a lever that anyone can lean on
[01:42:56] <Kamilion> (also, it can boot from http:// and https:// urls)
[01:43:43] <Kamilion> which means it can boot my special updater image which can poke around and verify hardware state
[01:44:28] <BillyHW> Boot from URL? That's cool!
[01:44:36] <Kamilion> it's been in ipxe for a while
[01:45:19] <Kamilion> [01:45:25] <Kamilion> even boots windows over HTTP
[01:45:29] <Kamilion> which is pretty damn cool
[01:45:50] <Kamilion> "You can use wimboot with iPXE to boot Windows PE via HTTP. With a Gigabit Ethernet network, a typical 200MB WinPE image should download in less than two seconds."
[01:46:18] <Kamilion> that's from a local HTTP server, obviously
[01:46:33] <Kamilion> but that is, of course, obscenely easy to set up
[01:47:01] <Kamilion> and one of those things that should be on the list of things that anyone should know how to do as part of basic computer skills
[01:47:11] <Kamilion> (after this console goes live, I mean)
[01:47:38] <Kamilion> we've come a long way since RS-232 was the standard everything used to chat over
[01:47:51] <Kamilion> it's time we started acting like it
[01:48:00] <Kamilion> linux's text console is bullshit
[01:48:30] <Kamilion> 
[01:48:43] <Kamilion> EVEN THE FUCKING AMIGA GOT IT RIGHT IN 1987
[01:48:46] <Kamilion> IT'S 2018
[01:49:37] <Kamilion> gentoo fucking got it right!
[01:49:38] <Kamilion> https://cn.pling.com/img//hive/content-pre1/14583-1.jpg
[01:49:45] <Kamilion> how the fuck did everyone else NOT?
[01:50:01] <Kamilion> THAT SCREENSHOT IS FROM 2004
[01:50:37] <BillyHW> What is the Amiga doing there?
[01:50:53] <Kamilion> that's amigados
[01:50:58] <Kamilion> it's in the rom
[01:51:03] <Kamilion> the window is resizable
[01:51:07] <Kamilion> you can spawn more
[01:51:23] <Kamilion> 
[01:51:31] <Kamilion> even apple got it right since system 6
[01:51:44] Kamilion points at the extensions in the bottom left corner
[01:52:27] <Kamilion> BillyHW: http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_10.html
[01:52:41] <Kamilion> technically, the ST does have a text shell too
[01:52:46] <Kamilion> it's used whenever you view a text file
[01:52:49] <Kamilion> GEMDOS
[01:53:00] <Kamilion> 
[01:53:15] <Kamilion> amiga's had a servicable debug text console since day one
[01:53:38] <Kamilion> this is basic shit that today's linux doesn't do
[01:54:22] <Kamilion> you wanna see what today's linux looks like while booting?
[01:54:23] <Kamilion> http://blog.husainad.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/sshot-1.png
[01:54:39] <Kamilion> it's so laughably half assed it's not even funny at ALL.
[01:55:21] <Kamilion> oh this its what it's SUPPOOOOOOOSED to look like
[01:55:21] <Kamilion> 
[01:55:23] <Kamilion> when it works
[01:55:28] <Kamilion> but it's never fucking worked
[01:55:41] <Kamilion> the dots are supposed to change from orange to white
[01:56:17] <Kamilion> and if you hit escape?
[01:56:18] <Kamilion> https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gonoe.png
[01:56:21] <Kamilion> you're back to THIS.
[01:57:29] <Kamilion> you know what it should fucking look like?!
[01:57:31] <Kamilion> 
[01:57:33] <Kamilion> THIS.
[01:58:26] <Kamilion> 
[01:59:00] <Kamilion> backround. window decorations.
[01:59:44] <Kamilion> the window title, obviously would be a little different.
[02:00:03] <Kamilion> it wouldn't say "Oracle VM VirtualBox"
[02:00:20] <Kamilion> that's... really the only difference.
[02:00:24] Kamilion shrugs
[02:01:12] <Kamilion> nobody should EVER have to see something like THIS again
[02:01:13] <Kamilion> 
[02:02:00] < Kamilion > 
[02:02:31] < Kamilion > 
[02:02:46] < Kamilion > 
[02:03:01] < Kamilion > 
[02:03:36] < Kamilion > 
[02:03:59] <Kamilion> ^ ALL BULLSHIT THAT IS *RIGHT NOW* *TODAY* IN PC COMPUTERS.
[02:04:09] <Kamilion> UNFORFUCKINGGIVABLE
[02:05:31] <Kamilion>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNt_yFUVTr4&t=1313s
[02:05:38] <Kamilion> 3com Ergo Audrey - Failed Year 2000 "Internet Appliance" - Demo and Teardown
[02:06:01] Kamilion throws up hands
[02:06:10] <Kamilion> WHAT THE FUCK EARTH
[02:07:50] <Kamilion> this thing was meant to cash in on the palm pilot sensation of the 1990s
[02:07:54] <Kamilion> pppltt!
[02:08:15] <BillyHW> lol
[02:09:12] <Kamilion> it even has a terminal, if you watch from the clip mark in for a minute or two
[02:09:17] <Kamilion> and a telnet client
[02:09:25] <Kamilion> all of that's built into the damn thing's 16MB rom!
[02:09:36] <Kamilion> including an aol instant messanger client ;_;
[02:11:01] <BillyHW> no hard drive?
[02:11:07] <Kamilion> it has a compactflash slot.
[02:11:13] <Kamilion> watch a little further
[02:11:49] <Kamilion> unfortunately it can't recongize large capacity cards without help (or replacing it's OS with linux)
[02:12:22] <Kamilion> 3com sort of died shortly after that
[02:12:26] <Kamilion> and HP ate them
[02:12:31] <Kamilion> to get palm
[02:13:21] <Kamilion> he'll take it apart a little further in
[02:13:27] <BillyHW> Who on earth though this was a good idea?
[02:13:40] <Kamilion> it was still the days of the modem
[02:13:50] <Kamilion> this thing has a companion USB ethernet adapter
[02:14:04] <Kamilion> it's literally the only thing the USB drivers in it's QNX kernel can recognize
[02:14:16] <Kamilion> i had another similar unit from a different company
[02:14:18] <Kamilion> netpliance
[02:14:49] <Kamilion> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Opener
[02:14:49] <Atari800XL> [WIKIPEDIA] I-Opener | "The i-Opener was a low-cost internet appliance produced by Netpliance (now known as TippingPoint) between the years 1999 and 2002. The hardware, cheaply available, became popular among collectors who modified the appliance to run as a normal PC. This made the device capable of running PC operating systems..."
[02:15:36] <Kamilion> , such as Linux and Microsoft Windows. The original retail price was $99. The actual cost of the device was roughly estimated between $300 and $400.
[02:15:36] <Kamilion> The devices were sold as a loss leader for monthly Internet service. However, as soon as a hacking method became available on the Internet (in 2000), many customers canceled the monthly service, which eventually made the business model unsustainable. Similar business models and failures were also seen with the 3Com Audrey and Virgin Webplayer.
[02:15:56] <Kamilion> they AOL'd themselves to death
[02:16:16] <BillyHW> How could you "hack" interent service?
[02:16:26] <Kamilion> not the internet service
[02:16:31] <Kamilion> ames Kmetz, a hacker from Indiana, discovered that the i-Opener was simply an x86 compatible PC inside a custom enclosure. When he removed the back cover of the device, he found a Socket 7 CPU socket with a 180 MHz IDT WinChip C6 CPU, a SO-DIMM socket, an IDE plug (which allowed adding a hard drive and CD-ROM, making the device nothing less than a $99 PC with an LCD screen), and a 16 MB SanDisk.
[02:17:08] <Kamilion> "Attempts by Netpliance to thwart hacking included gluing the BIOS chip into its socket with epoxy and modifying its settings (rendering it unable to detect hard drives), limiting the type of CPU one could use to that included with the unit, and even cutting the pins on the IDE connector."
[02:17:18] Kamilion grins
[02:17:37] <Kamilion> https://web.archive.org/web/20070620063108/http://m4i.homeip.net/
[02:17:43] <Kamilion> this is what me and some friends hacked together back then
[02:17:58] <Kamilion> to fit into that 16MB sandisk disk on chip
[02:18:02] <Kamilion> sixteen megabytes.
[02:18:50] <Kamilion> https://web.archive.org/web/20070808055203/http://whacked.net:80/oss/m4i/
[02:19:02] <Kamilion> the files are so small, archive.org was able to save them! HOORAY!
[02:19:47] <Kamilion> but yeah, "the dirty hackers" killed their "required" $34.95/mo dialup service plan
[02:20:06] <Kamilion> part of the term "dot com bubble burst" you hear thrown around
[02:20:43] <Kamilion> this is not a new idea, as you can see, and I've had a long history of this shit :D
[02:21:33] <BillyHW> I can't believe people though internet applicances would take off.
[02:21:37] <BillyHW> *thought
[02:21:39] <Kamilion> tengu built the original firmate image with netscape navigator
[02:21:43] <Kamilion> *firmware
[02:21:54] <Kamilion> I twisted his arm into getting opera 5.0 for linux in
[02:22:00] <Kamilion> which freed up space to get XMMS2 in
[02:22:05] <Kamilion> so it could play back mp3 internet radio
[02:22:18] <Kamilion> and fit the flash 5.0 runtime for opera
[02:22:21] <Kamilion> all in 16MB
[02:22:35] <Kamilion> at that time, opera even had a built in newsgroup and IRC client
[02:23:10] <Kamilion> it could also mount windows fileshares
[02:23:21] <Kamilion> so xmms2 could play your music collection
[02:23:39] <Kamilion> and realplayer could play your internet video collection
[02:23:48] <Kamilion> because, of course, at the time, realplayer was what everyone used
[02:23:58] <Kamilion> which seems absolutely absurd now :D
[02:24:13] <Kamilion> but it was before macromedia flash supported video playback
[02:24:27] <Kamilion> which only occured after Adobe (of photoshop fame) bought macromedia
[02:24:50] <BillyHW> Yeah, I remember using REalPlayer to listen to audio podcasts before podcasts were called podcasts.
[02:24:54] <Kamilion> there's even a game hidden in the firmware
[02:24:57] <Kamilion> xevil
[02:25:08] <Kamilion> which, I STILL INCLUDE IN ALL OF MY OS IMAGES TO THIS DAY.
[02:25:40] <Kamilion> :D
[02:26:36] <Kamilion> "it's xevil the game where you try to win your way out of the worst jobs in hell by killing more people than anyone else!"
[02:26:58] <Kamilion> ah, here we go
[02:26:58] <Kamilion> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhYkiGniyBk
[02:28:04] <BillyHW> RealPlayer was pretty crap for video.
[02:28:12] <BillyHW> I guess it was the early days.
[02:28:16] <Kamilion> yep!
[02:28:30] <Kamilion> check that last video, it's a crystal clear capture
[02:29:06] <BillyHW> Jesus, RealPlayer still exists!
[02:29:13] <BillyHW> http://www.real.com/ca
[02:29:17] <Kamilion> gotta play .rm files somehow
[02:29:39] <Kamilion> also, you can play xevil over the network.
[02:31:17] <BillyHW> Does VLC play .rm?
[02:31:28] <Kamilion> yep.
[02:31:31] <Kamilion> libav does.
[02:31:45] <Kamilion> vlc relies on it, compiled statically into vlc.app
[02:32:08] <BillyHW> So just use VLC...
[02:32:08] <Kamilion> it can decode the 4CC "REAL", the acual video codec itself
[02:32:20] <Kamilion> as well as demux .rm container file formats
[02:32:20] <BillyHW> I haven't had the need to play .rm in like 15 years.
[02:32:30] <Kamilion> (which can contain any codec, including avi)
[02:32:46] <Kamilion> AVI, incidentally, is both a format, AND a container file.
[02:32:46] <BillyHW> I remember using RealPlayer for like a few months when it first got the ability to rip mp3s from CDs.
[02:33:03] <BillyHW> At the time that was like pretty exclusive feature.
[02:33:05] <Kamilion> heh, it always had crap quality
[02:33:17] <Kamilion> they wanted you to pay for the sorenson mp3 encoder for $44
[02:33:35] <Kamilion> it's actually one of the reasons why mp3 has a reputation for bad sound quality
[02:33:39] <BillyHW> I didn't know anything about encoders back then.
[02:33:53] <Kamilion> you had to use something open source like LAME to actually use the file format "correctly"
[02:34:06] <BillyHW> All I know is that it turned your CDs into MP3s...and it was free.
[02:34:10] <Kamilion> hardware decoders could play it back if you encoded it properly
[02:34:16] <Kamilion> and that's the thing
[02:34:19] <BillyHW> Also used MusicMatch Jukebox for a little while for the same reason.
[02:34:25] <Kamilion> anything a hardware decoder will decode is valid MP3 :)
[02:35:03] <Kamilion> and of course, software can decode anything and everything (just not always realtime on any specific hardwares)
[02:35:07] <BillyHW> Winamp at the time didn't rip.
[02:35:18] <Kamilion> except the llama's ass.
[02:35:25] <Kamilion> Baaah! NAaaaaaahhhHHH
[02:35:27] <BillyHW> And I don't think itunes was a thing yet.
[02:35:57] <Kamilion> yeah, people forget that what we have now is a huge sum of people fighting
[02:36:03] <Kamilion> like napster fighting for your right to share
[02:36:10] <Kamilion> and JVC fighting for your right to record
[02:36:39] <Kamilion> and vietnam vets for I dunno, napalming people or something I guess
[02:37:07] <Kamilion> also intimidating the rest of the world to keep america safe, because to be honest, other than 9/11, nobody's fucked with our soil
[02:37:20] <Kamilion> nobody else wants napalm or nuclear or moab
[02:37:21] <BillyHW> By the time I heard of Napster they were already shutting it down.
[02:37:33] <BillyHW> Remember Kazaa?
[02:37:35] <Kamilion> yep
[02:37:36] <Kamilion> and overnet
[02:37:39] <BillyHW> And Limewire?
[02:37:39] <Kamilion> and edonkey 2000
[02:37:41] <Kamilion> and limewire
[02:37:45] <Kamilion> and gnutella
[02:37:47] <BillyHW> It's always something new...
[02:37:51] <Kamilion> and directconnect++
[02:37:55] <BillyHW> they shut one down and another comes in it's place.
[02:37:57] <BillyHW> lol
[02:38:08] <Kamilion> yep. The internet routes around censorship.
[02:38:21] <BillyHW> torrenting seems to be enduring so far.
[02:38:31] <Kamilion> do not take pictures of your penis if you don't want them eventually ending up on the reddit front page in a collection.
[02:38:36] <BillyHW> There were even others...some were website based...
[02:38:42] <Kamilion> seriously.
[02:38:46] <BillyHW> galaxy something?
[02:38:51] <Kamilion> ANY data captured, no matter how trivial
[02:39:00] <Kamilion> tell the internet it can't have it, and it pops up in a million spots like clockwork
[02:39:08] <Kamilion> "no, you can't have my firmware"
[02:39:17] <Kamilion> *firmware has 27 mirrors an hour for 2 weeks)
[02:39:39] <Kamilion> *websites set up to make money on ads while serving download links to firmware*
[02:40:12] <Kamilion> think I'm kidding
[02:40:13] <Kamilion> https://www.google.com/search?q=blu+firmware
[02:40:25] <Kamilion> you can get the firmware images from pretty much anyone but blu's url
[02:40:36] <Kamilion> but they're all adfly infested
[02:40:51] <BillyHW> you know what scares me?
[02:41:06] <Kamilion> [02:41:09] <BillyHW> Websites and malware that mine bitcoin on your computer secretly.
[02:41:18] <Kamilion> trying to download mobile phone firmware from some random spanish site?
[02:41:20] <BillyHW> Or on your phone...eeek.
[02:41:27] <Kamilion> oh. coinhive?
[02:41:30] <Kamilion> that's easy
[02:41:36] <Kamilion> i actually allow them explicitly
[02:41:51] <Kamilion> that adblocker I had you install?
[02:41:53] <Kamilion> blocks it.
[02:42:15] <Kamilion> if you actually want to allow it
[02:42:21] <Kamilion> go to the ublock settings
[02:42:23] <Kamilion> my filters tab
[02:42:31] <Kamilion> and put on a line by itself
[02:42:33] <Kamilion> !@@||coin-hive.com
[02:42:33] <Kamilion>
[02:43:01] <Kamilion> that's being used to generate revenue by sites instead of showing ad banners.
[02:43:09] <Kamilion> block it if you want
[02:43:28] <Kamilion> allow it if you prefer wasting some CPU on coin mining that someone gets a tiny real profit on, over having to wade through bullshit ads
[02:43:33] <BillyHW> No I don't want to allow it.
[02:43:38] <Kamilion> you like ads?
[02:43:43] Kamilion shakes his fist
[02:43:48] <BillyHW> I want to block those too.
[02:43:50] <Kamilion> BUY A BIGGER CPU, HIPPIE!
[02:44:03] <Kamilion> there's no such thing as a free lunch, sir
[02:44:07] <Kamilion> something has to give somewhere
[02:44:21] <Kamilion> and if I allow the one source of legit coin mining and block the rest
[02:44:47] <Kamilion> (btw, their javascript no longer allows accepting work=1.0, it must be 0.6 or lower)
[02:44:57] SteveS_afk [~SteveS@pool-100-0-29-155.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit IRC: Remote host closed the connection
[02:45:03] <Kamilion> anyone wanting to change that MUST copy the file onto their own server
[02:45:13] <Kamilion> so if they do that, my blocker hits them
[02:45:40] <Kamilion> the advertising council already says ads may use up to 60% cpu time
[02:45:52] <Kamilion> so you're not losing anything really
[02:46:01] <Kamilion> except the bullshit flash ads autoplaying video
[02:46:12] <Kamilion> and starting the audio if you happen to move the mouse cursor over them
[02:46:17] <Kamilion> I fucking hate that the most
[02:46:33] <Kamilion> those are exactly why 60% CPU is allowed
[02:46:40] <BillyHW> These people are stealing my kWh.
[02:46:41] <Kamilion> to account for flash decoding video frames in software.
[02:46:45] <Kamilion> no, they're not
[02:46:48] <Kamilion> well, some are
[02:46:51] <Kamilion> the malicious idiots
[02:47:00] <Kamilion> but not via coinhive DIRECTLY
[02:47:26] <Kamilion> https://coinhive.com/
[02:47:27] <Atari800XL> [WARNING] link posted by Kamilion is possibly malicious (confidence 100.0% - 10/10)
[02:47:36] <Kamilion> now it's classified as malicious everywhere
[02:48:36] <Kamilion> Monetize Your Business With Your Users' CPU Power - Integrate Coinhive on your Website! USES: Spam Protection - Rate limit actions on your site! Link Forwarding - Monetize shortlinks to your content!
[02:48:51] <Kamilion> In-Game Money - Offer rewards in your online games! Ad-Free Content - Run your site without ads!
[02:49:14] <BillyHW> Why don't the browsers block this cryptomining?
[02:49:22] <Kamilion> Coinhive offers a JavaScript miner for the Monero Blockchain (Why Monero?) that you can embed in your website. Your users run the miner directly in their Browser and mine XMR for you in turn for an ad-free experience, in-game currency or whatever incentives you can come up with.
[02:49:22] <Kamilion> grant video streaming time - offer files for download - allow ad-free browsing on your site - credit in-game money or items in your game
[02:49:22] <Kamilion> Our JavaScript API gives you the flexibilty to offer any rewards and incentives you like.
[02:49:22] <Kamilion> We also offer a captcha-like service as well as a shortlink solution that is easy to implement on your site. These services, while fully supported, should only serve as an example of what's possible.
[02:49:48] <Kamilion> because it's a completely legit buisness model, as long as coinhive adheres to the advertising limit of 60% CPU max.
[02:50:06] <Kamilion> it is no different than any other advertisier using your CPU to play video back in software on the CPU.
[02:50:33] <Kamilion> the big scare came when it was discovered the javascript code would allow work=1.0 as a setting
[02:50:40] <Kamilion> 100% of available CPU
[02:50:49] <Kamilion> that was not intentional, and was changed within a day
[02:50:56] <Kamilion> but the damage to the idea was already done
[02:51:02] <Kamilion> now people are trapped like you
[02:51:09] <Kamilion> "it's my kwh!"
[02:51:14] <Kamilion> "this sounds shady!"
[02:51:24] <Kamilion> fuck man, ADVERTISING should sound more shady than coin mining
[02:52:18] <Kamilion> ⚪️ This ad is irrelevant
[02:52:18] <Kamilion> ⚪️ This ad is misleading
[02:52:18] <Kamilion> ⚪️ This ad is offensive
[02:52:18] <Kamilion> 🔘 The very concept of ads is offensive
[02:52:37] <Kamilion> if they had that radio button, I'd click it EVERY DAMN TIME
[02:52:43] <Kamilion> and write a script to do it for me
[02:53:17] <BillyHW> I'm starting to not like the internet any more.
[02:53:33] <BillyHW> :(
[02:53:33] <Kamilion> ... do you even know where bitcoin came from?
[02:53:47] <Kamilion> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash
[02:53:48] <Atari800XL> [WIKIPEDIA] Hashcash | "Hashcash is a proof-of-work system used to limit email spam and denial-of-service attacks, and more recently has become known for its use in bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) as part of the mining algorithm. The original idea was first proposed by Cynthia Dwork and Moni Naor in their 1992 paper "Pricing..."
[02:54:01] <Kamilion> it orignally came from a way to do 'stamps' on email.
[02:54:23] <Kamilion> you had to hash the email and put that hash in a header to 'prove' you put some CPU into it and it wasn't really spam
[02:54:37] <Kamilion> the more leading 0s on that hash, the more CPU time you spent
[02:54:58] <Kamilion> well, the more CPU time you spent on wasted hashes trying to find the correct padding to get leading 0s
[02:55:07] <Kamilion> which eventually turned into bitcoin's difficulty
[02:55:22] <Kamilion> the more compute power you add to bitcoin, the higher the 'difficulty' factor goes
[02:55:39] <Kamilion> and the more leading zeros are required on a hash to prove a computation block should be added at the end of the block chain
[02:55:48] <BillyHW> I heard the amount of energy being used to mine bitcoin is huge...
[02:55:54] <Kamilion> so all these idiots jumping into mining is making things worse
[02:55:59] <Kamilion> we already had too many miners
[02:56:03] <BillyHW> There must be a huge cost to keeping that infrastructure going...
[02:56:17] <Kamilion> https://powercompare.co.uk/bitcoin/
[02:56:22] <BillyHW> And there goes the advantage of bitcoin...or at least one of tem.
[02:56:23] <Kamilion> "Bitcoin Mining Now Consuming More Electricity Than 159 Countries Including Ireland & Most Countries In Africa"
[02:56:28] <BillyHW> *them
[02:56:34] <BillyHW> That is insane.
[02:56:43] <Kamilion> If it keeps increasing at this rate, Bitcoin mining will consume all the world’s electricity by February 2020.
[02:56:59] <Kamilion> and the hashrate will keep scaling the difficulty to keep it at the same 30 minute rate of success per block
[02:57:06] <Kamilion> it's truly a devious protocol
[02:57:15] <BillyHW> That is so fucked up.
[02:57:16] <Kamilion> not even the largest nationstate can break it right now.
[02:57:21] <Kamilion> not the NSA
[02:57:24] <Kamilion> not the chinese
[02:57:43] <Kamilion> nobody has a computer farm large enough to dominate 2/3rds of the bitcoin 'swarm' to control the next block
[02:57:49] <Kamilion> not even close
[02:57:52] <Kamilion> not even by a long shot
[02:58:01] <Kamilion> so security? at least it's got that.
[02:58:18] <Kamilion> that's the only way it can actually hold value as a fiat currency, after all
[02:58:25] <Kamilion> is if it's trustworthy to nerdy math people
[02:58:35] <Kamilion> and they can prove that with math
[02:59:13] <BillyHW> Security is worth all that expenditure in energy costs?
[02:59:19] <Kamilion> right now the cryptocoin craze isn't even on bitcoin, sir
[02:59:32] <Kamilion> all the GPU shortages are for cryptocoins OTHER than bitcoin
[02:59:46] <Kamilion> litecoin, monero, bytecoin...
[03:00:01] <Kamilion> there's approximately 300 that are holding some amount of value relative to bitcoin right now.
[03:00:31] <Kamilion> and people are making shit tons of money by shuffling value into and out of various coin systems to influence the global market.
[03:00:39] <BillyHW> If it's easy to switch to another coin, the value of your coins can go poof overnight.
[03:00:45] <BillyHW> The volatility is crazy.
[03:01:03] <Kamilion> it's suspected the US government is using the bitcoins it snatched from the silk road to infest other cryptocoins and 'watch' transactions stemming from said stolen bitcoins.
[03:01:33] <Kamilion> and that they are using stored value to fuck with the network economics instead of compute time.
[03:01:40] <Kamilion> they're not mining, they're high speed trading.
[03:01:47] <BillyHW> why?
[03:01:54] <Kamilion> a cent here, a dollar there
[03:02:15] <Kamilion> the gains are reasonably steady when you have a portfolio of coins
[03:02:19] <Kamilion> just as a portfolio of stocks
[03:02:51] <Kamilion> moving value away from a coin that's about to take a newsworthy hit can be as easy as setting a trading bot up with code off github.
[03:03:12] <Kamilion> https://github.com/askmike/gekko
[03:03:20] <Kamilion> A bitcoin trading bot written in node - https://gekko.wizb.it/
[03:03:25] <BillyHW> I think I'm going to go Amish.
[03:59:24] <Kamilion> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRR7r6qz0Ms
[03:59:36] <Kamilion> The 8-bit Guy - Commodore History Part 3 - The Commodore 64 (Part 1)
[04:00:16] <BillyHW> I need to go to bed Kamilion.
[04:00:33] <Kamilion> sleep is for the meat
[04:00:42] <BillyHW> Nice chatting with you.
[04:00:43] <Kamilion> a numan needs no sleep!
[04:00:48] <BillyHW> lol
[04:00:51] Kamilion laughs and waves
[04:00:53] <Kamilion> sleep well
[04:00:59] <BillyHW> I am an oldman.
[04:01:12] <BillyHW> gn
[04:01:32] <Kamilion> tomorrow i will turn 35
[04:01:55] <BillyHW> congrats
[04:02:08] <BillyHW> happy birthday
[04:55:07] <Kamilion> ooh
[04:55:09] <Kamilion> http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/162298/prop2-fpga-files-updated-1-january-2018-version-31/p1
http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/167947/is-the-propeller-2-out
[04:55:18] <Kamilion> new propeller2 hardware coming within a few months
[05:04:47] <Kamilion> Ah, came up with a name.
[05:04:55] <Kamilion> MoniTOS
[05:05:04] <Kamilion> to port software would be to Monitize.
[05:05:18] Kamilion chuckles at the terrible pun
[05:05:49] <Kamilion> just the terrible pun you'd expect from GNU's Not UnixAnd some related traffic from ##Electronics:
[05:46:25] <SpeedEvil> Loetmichel: if actually interested - read the above blog - awesome detail in RTGs and small new reactors
[05:46:26] owiecc [~textual@IP.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined ##electronics
[05:46:29] <mine9> is someone tapping off SATA cables from an m.SATA slot?
[05:46:34] <saku> should I prefer one of them - disc / blob?
[05:46:39] <r0n0x> oh
[05:46:46] tttb [~tttb@IP.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined ##electronics
[05:47:05] <r0n0x> _abc_, my copper ones should do fine though i think
[05:47:08] <sloth> mine9: pcie 1x to sata
[05:47:44] <r0n0x> sulfuric swabs do wonders against oxidized copper
[05:47:45] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil: already did. interesting but not that new info.
[05:48:17] <Bga3> saku: single layer is better in in rush current but smaller capacitance. Multi layer for big capacitance
[05:48:24] <Loetmichel> sloth: i just built a PC with a miniPCIe-NIC
[05:48:36] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16956&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[05:48:53] <saku> how are the parasitics / dissipation factor?
[05:48:58] <Bga3> Vishay AppNotes describes its better
[05:49:09] <saku> I see will look for them
[05:49:13] <intranick> in the dark we're the same in the concept of time.. like a grain in the sand
[05:49:15] <Loetmichel> scoll down to the bottom. yellow/orange PCB right in the middle of the mainboard front ;)
[05:49:35] <saku> I was confused because I thought MLC = always SMD
[05:49:36] <sloth> Loetmichel: neat, i'm working on a router/nas with an intel j3355
[05:49:48] <sloth> put a draytek 132f in it
[05:50:05] <Loetmichel> its just a tech demo for our customer to chek if their software will work
[05:50:22] <sloth> got 100mbps edge going in as copper
[05:50:28] <sloth> then running fiber to my switch
[05:50:44] <sloth> so when i'm doing file transfers on the network it doesn't bottleneck
[05:51:13] <Loetmichel> and it has an I7 or I5 on it... will be a lot flatter in series and fully encloses (Tempest-proof)... AND passive cooled with external heatsinks left and right and internal heatpipes ;
[05:51:17] <Loetmichel> :-)
[05:51:41] <sloth> neat
[05:51:50] <sloth> the j3355 only uses 10w
[05:51:55] <sloth> so a single heatsink is all i need
[05:52:01] <sloth> got some fans for the hdd array tho
[05:52:07] <Loetmichel> 4 1gbit FO connections and 3 1gbit TP connections is needed though
[05:52:10] <sloth> building it into an old 2u chasis i had
[05:52:29] <Loetmichel> which makes it a bit complicated to build as a 12" "Point of sales"-like desktop device
[05:52:42] <sloth> mmm
[05:52:54] <sloth> i hate those things
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[05:53:37] <Loetmichel> it will look somewhat like this when done: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16050&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[05:53:39] <sloth> go for segments or multiples of rack width tbh
[05:53:42] <Loetmichel> ... maybe a bit bigger
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[05:54:14] <sloth> why are your images all like 8 trillion pixels tall
[05:54:21] <sloth> i'm on adsl until i finish my new router
[05:54:22] <sloth> goddamn
[05:54:25] <password2> tawr, !
[05:54:44] <Loetmichel> because the old gallery i use cant handle vertical stacked images on the same page
[05:55:00] <Loetmichel> so i have to stack them in a single image beforehand ;)
This is the current state of things. This is a placeholder post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhWGQCzAtl8