Virgin Media Replies With Respect To Their T&Cs

[kianryan]

Written on 21/10/2013 23:54:49

URL: http://www.kianryan.co.uk/2013/10/virgin-media-replies-with-respect-to-their-tcs/

[kianryan]

Comment written by Random on 22/10/2013 07:09:57

If you ever find yourself talking to Zen tech support, and get Ed, say hello.

[kianryan]

Comment written by Mark Lowes on 22/10/2013 10:36:06

Another vote for Zen, it works and when it doesn't they really handle the escalation and chasing of the issue very well.

[kianryan]

Comment written by simonhowes on 22/10/2013 12:45:06

This is pretty normal for most ISPs. You need to have a business account. This is also normal for POTs and mobile phone contracts as well.

[kianryan]

Comment written by NGRhodes on 22/10/2013 13:43:26

http://www.oft.gov.uk/busin...

"Regulation 7 states that:

(1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.

(2)
If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the
interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail
but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under Regulation
12."

[kianryan]

Comment written by Simon Cope on 22/10/2013 14:25:07

Good to know someone is concerned enough to go after these things, a clear and well-stated article - as you say, at its heart this isn't Virgin being unreasonably harsh on people who check work email from home, it's a failure to take seriously a legally-binding contract.

Whether or not it is "normal for most ISPs" and "not meant to be taken literally" is irrelevant; VM should be able to explain the terms of their contract.

[kianryan]

Comment written by Virgin Media on 22/10/2013 15:55:50

Hi Kian, We really thought this deserved a response and appreciate your concerns. We have no objections to people using their Virgin Media broadband when working from home – e.g. connecting to their work VPN. But we ask people not to use our residential service as their main business connection as business use often requires dedicated connections and support. If we need to talk to someone about how they’re using their residential service for business purposes, we won’t disconnect them but simply focus on getting the customer the package that’s right for them.

[kianryan]

Comment written by James on 22/10/2013 16:20:42

To save anyone wondering if this is sourced, they confirmed this post on Twitter: https://twitter.com/virginm...

[kianryan]

Comment written by Kian Ryan on 22/10/2013 17:45:37

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for your response to the blog post. I've posted this response to the site and I'm e-mailing you directly, feel free to respond via e-mail or comment, but please be aware that e-mailed responses will be commented in to the site.

I would like you to clarify on two further points please:

The line from your terms and conditions reads:

D Using the services
1. You are responsible for the way services are used. You must not do any of the following acts or allow anyone else to do the following acts in relation to the services:
h. Use any services (including, but not limited to, phone services) for commercial or business purposes;

This is the only line in relation to business use, and explicitly prohibits *any* business use. Your reply to the blog post runs in contradiction to this clause, in that you do not support it, but do not consider it a violation. Would you consider referring this to your legal department, or customer service team, with a view to expanding the terms and conditions to be explicit as to what constitutes acceptable use? Would Virgin consider rewording the clause to avoid further confusion?

Secondly, I have four use cases. Whilst you have said that Virgin would not disconnect a customer for using a residential service for business use, would you please give yes/no answers to the following. Feel free to also expand on those answers, but the yes/no is important. The first three were originally posted to your customer support team, the fourth is a new case designed to demonstrate the edge condition (I hope).

"Bob The Self-Employed Builder" is a sole trader, working as a building contractor. He uses his broadband in the evenings, and mostly to check e-mails when he gets home from jobs. Weekly, he sends invoices to his clients. He has no real domestic usage. Is Bob in violation of your residential T&Cs?
"Jerry The Office Worker" is an employed worker for a medium size organisation. He spends 80% of his time working in the office, and around 20% of his time working from home. At the end of the work day, Jerry needs to check his company e-mail, and some nights needs to work on documents for his employer, using his company's VPN. The remainder of his household plays games and uses social networks. Is Jerry in violation of your residential T&Cs?
"Kian the Freelancer" works as a full time freelance software developer. He runs a limited company consisting of two employees. He spends about 80% of his time working from home, with the remaining time working from client sites. In the evenings, Kian watches programmes using Netflix. Is Kian in violation of your residential T&Cs?
"Anne The Company Director" runs a small development shop with three other developers, who all work from a let business premises. They spend 80% of their on-line time working, with around 20% reserved for social media. They all go home in the evenings to their personal lives. Is Anne in violation of your residential T&Cs?
These four use cases represent the range of scenarios that I have been presented with over the course of the day, and clear cut answers backed with reasoning would help.

I appreciate your continued engagement on this subject - it's rather important to a lot of us.

[kianryan]

Comment written by David Gerard on 22/10/2013 23:49:55

+1 to Zen. There are basically two ISPs worth spit, and they are Zen and A&A. Neither runs your connection through Cleanfeed either, unlike Virgin who seem to fall over themselves to block any site they can.

[kianryan]

Comment written by ISPreview on 23/10/2013 08:14:48

As others have said, most consumer ISPs have similar rules but most aren't quite so general as Virgin Media in their wording. In reality, with the exception of doing things like running your own servers (this can sometimes stick out), it would be almost impossible for an ISP (without breaking certain privacy rules to snoop on your traffic etc.) to know whether or not an ordinary Internet user was using their connection for business purposes.

But you are right to question rules like this, especially ones written in such a general way, because many non-business activities (e.g. setting up an FTP or game server for your friends) might potentially look like business use to an ISP and thus ambiguity over the rules isn't helpful. Business has a very broad definition.

Mark
ISPreview.co.uk

[kianryan]

Comment written by davee on 23/10/2013 13:31:19

It may also be worth pointing out that not all "work" may be considered "business" or "commercial". As an example, someone whose employment is with a non-profit or academic institution. Is using a University's VPN service when "working from home" in violation of the T&C clause you cite? Specifically, I am employed by a University and don't consider my work to be "business" nor to be "commercial"!

[kianryan]

Comment written by Kian Ryan on 23/10/2013 13:57:49

It's worth reading Virgin's comment below. I'm expecting a follow up from them clarifying some additional points.

[kianryan]

Comment written by davee on 23/10/2013 14:55:51

I saw that before posting my comment. It's one thing to *say in a comment here* that "it's OK", but it's still ambiguous with regard to their T&Cs I think. Your drive to get them to properly clarify their T&Cs is a worthy one :-)

[kianryan]

Comment written by Kian Ryan on 24/10/2013 08:52:41

To their credit, Virgin have now been trying to. See the updates to this post and the follow up.

[kianryan]

Comment written by Kian Ryan on 24/10/2013 08:53:48

Virgin have now sent this post and related comments to the relevant team. They are apparently "keen to review".

[kianryan]

Comment written by Kian Ryan on 24/10/2013 08:58:10

Hi Mark,

Initial thoughts would be that port monitoring would at least highlight hosted services, which would be a good indication that the user is at least running some asset. You're right that without active monitoring, they're not really going to know your traffic, although the NSA and GHCQ have already reinforced that the distinction between metadata and content is pretty blurred.

It's worth noting that Virgin have now replied with an attempt to clarify their interpretation of the T&Cs. There's nothing extraordinary here, and they agree there's confusion in the phrasing, so are highlighting it for review.

[kianryan]

Comment written by Kian Ryan on 24/10/2013 08:58:46

I've gone with Zen. At least from the technical side, quite happy with their handling of the order.

[kianryan]

Comment written by Kian Ryan on 24/10/2013 09:15:46

Actually, that was interesting. Different ISPs have different ways of phrasing the requirement. In some cases, the requirement is "no hosted services", in some cases it's "no business or commercial".

The major issue is with the wide reaching definition of "business", which unfortunately impacts nearly every modern office worker in the UK. Virgin have been great in clarifying this, and they're now reviewing their T&Cs.

[kianryan]

Comment written by David Watson on 10/01/2014 12:09:04

Wow, it really does pay to read the fine print doesn't it, it's completely illogical for VM to tell people they cannot use their connections for business use, more of us each day are making a living online.. Im a virgin media user too and i do freelance work now and again online and I haven't been contacted by virgin media on this, I work sparsely online but it's still misleading marketing virgin are giving!