Deprecate blacklist/whitelist in favour of blocklist/allowlist

[leymannx]

There's the $parser_plugin_whitelist and there's the BlacklistPlugin with quite some occurrences of these problematic strings. Of course also in the test. I guess we can't simply replace the one strings provided by PHPUnit but maybe let's start by providing alternatives for the ones we currently have in Kint and deprecate the old ones for now.

[jnvsor]

No

[Schnitzel]

great idea @leymannx!

How about $parser_plugin_allowlist and BlocklistPlugin?

[damienmckenna]

@jnvsor: Could you please explain why a list of items to be blocked should be called a "black" list - what definition of "black" do you consider the relevant one? Ditto for why a list of items to be allowed should be called a "white" list. Thank you.

[leymannx]

Wow, look at this change record from PHPUnit 9.3 I've been just made aware of! All references to blacklist/whitelist are now deprecated and replaced by exclude-list/include-list references. So they are one step ahead now. I think Kint is such a great tool and definitely should catch up. References to black=bad and white=good can easily be seen as offensive language and there are so many better terms to replace them.

Like @Schnitzel specified from the issue title $parser_plugin_allowlist and BlocklistPlugin sound fine. But maybe $parser_plugin_includelist or ExcludelistPlugin are good candidates as well.

[deanvalentine]

No

Perhaps you could elucidate more on this reply. Replying with a simple "No" and then not engaging further can come across as a little tone-deaf.

Many other projects (such as MySQL, Github themselves and even Linux) are going down this path of more inclusive language. Why not join them?

[bookworm2000]

@jnvsor Python, Drupal, Github, and Django have all worked to remove master/slave language and promote more inclusive language. Apple and Twitter are removing the term blacklist. Does this project have to keep words with racist undertones, which communicates to open source developers that not everyone is welcome in this community?

[joehuggans]

When does political correctness go too far?

[leymannx]

When does empathy harm?

After all, blacklist/whitelist simply are not precise terms. Name it butterflylist/elephantlist, same.

Blocklist/allowlist or excludelist/includelist simply is a more precise wording. Can we agree on that?

[joehuggans]

I don't believe this is empathy, I believe this is political correctness grounded in post-modern thought.

I don't believe it is making people more empathetic, I believe it is making people fearful of saying the wrong thing.

True racism is when we stop seeing the skin colour, blacklist and whitelist are just words, they are not associated with race.

[leymannx]

I value your opinion and I don't see a contradiction in renaming these terms though. I like that you don't associate these terms with race. Maybe you can imagine that others do associate them with race. That language can be racist. But language also can be inclusive. No one needs to be afraid of making mistakes. That's okay. We can learn. We can develop. Let's simply choose neutral equivalents for these imprecise terms. 🤗

[joehuggans]

It is not so much I have a problem with this particular change of terms, it is the ideology which drives it which I see as a problem. But I still welcome your perspective, I just don't think langauge can be racist, it is the intention behind language which makes it racist.

[joehuggans]

@damienmckenna Because white is the presence of all colours, and black is the absense of colour. "All other colors are reflections of light, except black. Black is the absence of light".

[damienmckenna]

@joehuggans: You might do yourself a favor and listen to this podcast: http://www.sceneonradio.org/seeing-white/

[joehuggans]

Sure, and you should listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofmuCXRMoSA

[damienmckenna]

Jordan Peterson? That sexist bigot? No thanks.

[joehuggans]

Any evidence for that claim?

[damienmckenna]

https://samirchopra.com/2018/06/08/jordan-peterson-is-a-sexist-tool/

[joehuggans]

That is utterly terrifying.

[georgjaehnig]

@leymannx:

I value your opinion and I don't see a contradiction in renaming these terms though. I like that you don't associate these terms with race. Maybe you can imagine that others do associate them with race. That language can be racist. But language also can be inclusive. No one needs to be afraid of making mistakes. That's okay. We can learn. We can develop. Let's simply choose neutral equivalents for these imprecise terms.

I have heard this reasoning a few times already, and I am genuinely curious how far it would go. From what I understand, it goes:

• there are people that associate these terms with race
• these people feel then excluded
• so to include them, we shall rename the terms.

Now, does this also extend to other areas, e.g. Gender of connectors and fasteners? If there were people who associate them with gender (of humans) and feel excluded because of it, would that be sufficient enough that engineers should change these terms?

[leymannx]

Not sure how far this goes. Maybe we can fix these imprecise terms some day. 🤷

[georgjaehnig]

@leymannx But which condition is sufficient enough for you to change a term? That there are people who say they feel excluded by it?

[leymannx]

Common sense.

[georgjaehnig]

@leymannx Well, then apparently the condition is not met here: The views on this question are visibly highly disputed, not common at all.

[leymannx]

Thank you for the explanation. 🤣

[georgjaehnig]

Thank you! I knew: When we talk about (language) politics the programmer's way, we can quickly come to an understanding. ;)