Feature Request: Unlock Ratios on Kitchen Sink

[mosesve]

Hi there,

thanks for porting this great modules over to V2.

I had two open feature requests regarding the KitchenSink over on Squinkys github. Maybe you find the time to have a look at them.

The KitchenSink is my favorite FM-Operator when it comes to CPU-Usage and has some nice features over the other modules out there. But the controls for pitch are not very FM-conform, which makes it hard to dial in a 0.75-Ratio for example. I would suggest to combine octave and ratio into one button with a non-fixed ratio range from 0 - 16. In the moment it is 1-16 with fixed integer-values as ratios. Maybe with an option in the menu to set the "stepping" [off, 0.25, 1]. In addition it would be really awesome when the ratio had an independent CV-Input.

Thanks,

• mo

[mosesve]

Legacy+Sub is now working as expected.

[mosesve]

After reading your code, should the other steppings work too? I get strange artifacts on Legacy. And on Octaves and Digitone the switchingpoints are off and it starts with a wrong note. Is my math wrong?

I found three minor bugs in the code: For Stepping "None" Ratio must be now *3.2 (since we changed the ratio knob values). Line 417 must be R[4] Line 422 must be R[5]

[kockie69]

This has now been fixed, including 1 or 2 others. So those can be tested. If you check the code, you will see that I have created one new member function, that will be called with a seperate Ratio-list depending on the selected stepping. https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1673430458

[kockie69]

Working now on passing the ret Value to the display value of the Ratio knob. But have to go to A&E with my son, so not sure when I can finish it.

[tanabarbier]

Hi everybody, sorry for going silent these past few days, we have a sick baby in the house so it is impossible to do anything beyond basic house keeping survival mode. I really hope that it will get better quick though. What I read makes me want to have time to play with it !

Le dim. 9 janv. 2022 à 11:21, kockie69 @.***> a écrit :

Working now on passing the ret Value to the display value of the Ratio knob. But have to go to A&E with my son, so not sure when I can finish it.

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[mosesve]

Ok, that is working really really nice and I already have a lot of fun with it. Here is a small VCV-selection for a quick listening. Ratio Mod.zip

Found two bugs while digging through the code:

Add Modulation-CV to Stepping "None": Line 324: ret = rack::math::clamp(ratio + ratioCV,0.f,10.f) * 3.2f; DX7-Stepping was missing: Line 637: if (steppingFromUI+1 <= 6)

We are not in a hurry in any way, so both of you have a nice sunday with your family!

[kockie69]

Add Modulation-CV to Stepping "None": Fixed now

DX7-Stepping was missing: Line 637: if (steppingFromUI+1 <= 6)

This was actually caused by something else, but fixed now.

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1673980544

[mosesve]

I simplified the formula to get the Ratio, no more iteration needed. Math can be so simple sometimes...

We need an array rDiv with the value of 10 / (Cardinality - 1) as constants for each array. This would be 0.66667, 0.55556, 1.25000, 0.28571, 0.15873, 0.31250 for the existing steppings. The value would then be added as parameter rDiv to the function getScaledRatio and that function would look like this:

float AV = rack::math::clamp(ratio + ratioCV, 0.f, 10.f);
int ratioIndex = round(AV / rDiv);
return R[ratioIndex];

I don't know if rounding is a performant operation or if there is a better way of doing this, but math-wise it would work. Maybe a check for maximum index is necessary because of rounding errors for rDiv.

[kockie69]

When you leave vcv rack the last settings for wave and Stepping will be saved.

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1674830859

[squinkylabs]

I think with the options that rack uses to compile plugins std::round is quite fast. Don't know if I've timed it...

[kockie69]

I worked on the Ratio knob display. It displays the ratio depending on the chosen stepping. Struggling with the none. It is now from 0-10 and will only work if you start module with none.

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1681903049

Suggestions for improvement welcome

[mosesve]

@kockie69 Ratio-Display for the steppings is tested and ok. I don't see anything obvious regarding the stepping-values for None. Have you seen the new formula above for retrieving the index of the correct stepping?

[kockie69]

I implemented the new formula, and also hopefully implemented the ratio display properly

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1687336296

What are your thoughts about manually entering the R values? Should we disable this or handle that properly, so convert from typed ratio to volt representation in the background?

We also need to implement the Lin/Log , I think those are the two items open...

[tanabarbier]

I think typing ratios is important, to be able to enter weird but precise values, and take advantage of the possibility of using equations that VCV allows. I download and try the new version right now.

Le mer. 12 janv. 2022 à 12:38, kockie69 @.***> a écrit :

I implemented the new formula, and also hopefully implemented the ratio display properly

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1687336296

What are your thoughts about manually entering the R values? Should we disable this or handle that properly, so convert from typed ratio to volt representation in the background?

We also need to implement the Lin/Log , I think those are the two items open...

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[kockie69]

Ok, so you can type now but need to calculate yourself. I will work on a version that will convert from typed ratio to voltage (0..10)

[tanabarbier]

From a quick test, with stepping mode to none, when entering "1" it snaps to 3.2 and plays 420Hz for C2. When adjusting the ratio so that it outputs Almost 1, it plays a C3. Is it normal ?

I realize that it is complicated to handle the ratios like that in the background, but would it be possible that when we use a ratio of 1 changing the stepping mode never change anything ? (so basically all stepping modes have 1 as a possibility and keep the 1 value centered, like it is 0V ?)

Le mer. 12 janv. 2022 à 12:45, Tana Barbier @.***> a écrit :

I think typing ratios is important, to be able to enter weird but precise values, and take advantage of the possibility of using equations that VCV allows. I download and try the new version right now.

Le mer. 12 janv. 2022 à 12:38, kockie69 @.***> a écrit :

I implemented the new formula, and also hopefully implemented the ratio display properly

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1687336296

What are your thoughts about manually entering the R values? Should we disable this or handle that properly, so convert from typed ratio to volt representation in the background?

We also need to implement the Lin/Log , I think those are the two items open...

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[kockie69]

In stepping 'none' if I put the knob by rotating on 1 it gives me a C4 in 'hot tuna' .

So are you suggesting that when I select 1 in i.e. none, by switching the stepping the knob also should reflect ratio 1? This means the knob needs to automatically rotate?

[mosesve]

That will not work. Where should we go to from let's say Ratio 5.50 in Digitone, when switching to Octaves? I don't see a problem with having different knob positions for the same ratio in different steppings.

[mosesve]

For entering values by typing them in, that seems easy for "None" (dividing by 3.2f), but hard for the steppings. Again, what stepping will be chosen if the entered value is not in the stepping? If there is an easy method to select the nearest ratio then that would be a nice feature, but I think not necessary.

[mosesve]

We also need to implement the Lin/Log , I think those are the two items open...

At the moment FM is not working and the Envelope-Input has a strange scaling. Should both features be working?

[kockie69]

You are right, we still had to do FM forgot about that one.

I will check on Envelope input .

[tanabarbier]

Agree with everything. The "automated" knob would be a lot for something not that important. I do think that when "none" is selected, and I type "1" it should play the same note. Did I got this wrong ? I will check again.

What I was thinking with the ratio 1 being the 0V was more something like having different scaling on the negative and positive side of the Ratio CV input to accommodate the different targets (ie if a stepping only has one possible value below 1, and 15 values above 1, and another stepping has 3 below and 10 above 1, they would have to react differently to negative voltage and positive voltage, but it does seem over complicated).

Le mer. 12 janv. 2022 à 14:10, kockie69 @.***> a écrit :

You are right, we still had to do FM forgot about that one.

I will check on Envelope input .

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[mosesve]

What I was thinking with the ratio 1 being the 0V was more something like having different scaling on the negative and positive side of the Ratio CV input to accommodate the different targets (ie if a stepping only has one possible value below 1, and 15 values above 1, and another stepping has 3 below and 10 above 1, they would have to react differently to negative voltage and positive voltage, but it does seem over complicated).

In theory that is still achievable if we implement the stepping file, where a user can enter his own steppings. It should be possible to set the steppings to 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0, so a linear modulation would result in the same time on stepping 0.5 than on the other steppings.

I think the way we have it now (knob represents 0-10V internally +/- Mod-CV = Full Range of Steppings) is a good compromise. In addition there is no negativ and positive side around Ratio 1.0. You set a center ratio with the knob and the modulation will start from that center ratio.

[tanabarbier]

So modulation is bipolar (-5 +5V ?) around the position set from knob position (wich is unipolar 0-10V) is that right ?

One thing I think is important is that when double clicking on the ratio knob a C4 stays a C4, whatever the stepping mode is. Is it possible with ratio knob going 0-10V ?

Is it possible ?

Le mer. 12 janv. 2022 à 16:32, mosesve @.***> a écrit :

What I was thinking with the ratio 1 being the 0V was more something like having different scaling on the negative and positive side of the Ratio CV input to accommodate the different targets (ie if a stepping only has one possible value below 1, and 15 values above 1, and another stepping has 3 below and 10 above 1, they would have to react differently to negative voltage and positive voltage, but it does seem over complicated).

In theory that is still achievable if we implement the stepping file, where a user can enter his own steppings. It should be possible to set the steppings to 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0, so a linear modulation would result in the same time on stepping 0.5 than on the other steppings.

I think the way we have it now (knob represents 0-10V internally +/- Mod-CV = Full Range of Steppings) is a good compromise. In addition there is no negativ and positive side around Ratio 1.0. You set a center ratio with the knob and the modulation will start from that center ratio.

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[kockie69]

Yes, that should be possible (I hope) :-)

Let me have a look if the API supports, but there is a onDoubleClick() for the param. Something for tonight to look at

[mosesve]

One thing I think is important is that when double clicking on the ratio knob a C4 stays a C4, whatever the stepping mode is. Is it possible with ratio knob going 0-10V ?

And again: That is ok for Stepping "None" - but for the rest of the steppings not. A C4 is always Ratio 1.00 and that does not have to exist in every possible stepping in the future. The Ratio-Knob is not a Frequency-Knob like on other VCOs and therefor does not have to behave the same way. You can always use Stepping "None" if you want it to behave like a frequency knob. The only constant is that a Ratio of 1.00 is always C4. But A Stepping "Even" does not have a Ratio of 1.00.

Modulation is Bipolar +/- 10V and added to the knob which is also 0-10V. The result is then limited to 0-10V and that defines the Ratio.

[tanabarbier]

Le mer. 12 janv. 2022 à 18:54, mosesve @.***> a écrit :

One thing I think is important is that when double clicking on the ratio knob a C4 stays a C4, whatever the stepping mode is. Is it possible with ratio knob going 0-10V ?

And again: That is ok for Stepping "None" - but for the rest of the steppings not. A C4 is always Ratio 1.00 and that does not have to exist in every possible stepping in the future. The Ratio-Knob is not a Frequency-Knob like on other VCOs and therefor does not have to behave the same way. You can always use Stepping "None" if you want it to behave like a frequency knob.

Ok

We'll have to clarify that in the manual. It is a bit counterintuitive to reset to a value that isn't neutral, but if it is clearly stated, it's Ok, like you say it opens to steppings that do not have a ratio of 1 included. Why not. Would it be possible to extend the possibility to reset to a ratio of one to all steppings that include this ratio, or would this be a problem ?

I am only trying to think to the user that is not going to understand why changing the stepping actually changes pitch, to avoid people saying that it does not work because "you play C4 and get a F#5" or something like that.

Modulation is Bipolar +/- 10V and added to the knob which is also 0-10V. The result is then limited to 0-10V and that defines the Ratio.

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[mosesve]

If @kockie69 is ok with adding that feature, sure, he is the author. I don't see it as a functional requirement and I don't want to introduce feature-creep to this already really big feature request. I am more than happy to be able to add ideas and some work to this module.

Regarding the end-user, I am planning on contributing to the manual and making a short introduction video. I think a lot of the possibilities are becoming clear, once the intention behind all the features is explained. Key-Off-Sounds via inverted envelope for example.

[kockie69]

FM-input is implemented. https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1691741812

I now realise we don't have a param/knob for FM. But we have a param/knob for LFM which is not yet implemented. But the LFM can be controlled by depth. Don't we want the LFM param/knob actually be the controller for FM. So actually switch LFM and FM? That version you can download and try from here: https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1691773736

[mosesve]

As I wrote earlier, I messed up the Labels on the mockup:

I messed up with the inputs for FM and LFM on my mockup. They should be exchanged with each other.

[kockie69]

I remembered you said something about it but couldn't find it anymore.

So are we happy with the latest version ( with regards to LFM and FM)?

[mosesve]

I will test later, I am still at work for another 6 hours.

[mosesve]

Ok, it starts to sound beautiful! FM and LFM are working correct.

Just a summary of the actual state of polyphony at the moment, so that we can all agree on it:

Input	Polyphonic
Ratio	No
VCA	? (should be)
Depth	Yes
FM	No
Fdbk	Yes
Shape	Yes
LFM	Yes
V/Oct	Yes
Sync	Yes

[kockie69]

I checked, but VCA should be poly. I will check again to see if properly implemented.

[mosesve]

I thought so too, but the VCA is not working at the moment, so I could not hear or measure it.

[tanabarbier]

I agree with all of that indeed.

Le jeu. 13 janv. 2022 à 19:53, mosesve @.***> a écrit :

I thought so too, but the VCA is not working at the moment, so I could not here or measure it.

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[kockie69]

OK,

I think there was an issue. New version available:

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1696630934

[tanabarbier]

It is working here.

I am sorry it took me some time to understand the way the ratio knob works. To sum up I agree with the fact that it does not matter to have it move to the typed value for any other mode than "none".

The inverted enveloppe still feels weird, we'll have to use an extra module. Is it to save the use of a button activating the "VCA controlled by Env input mode" ?

About the polyphony of the FM input, I don't know how much CPU that would eat up, but it would allow us to patch a "simple" various OP FM synth with various Pigeon's Kink, with real polyphony instead of paraphony, otherwise the polyphony use cases might be limited to some unison or things like that ?

Anyway it is starting to look and sound nice !

Le ven. 14 janv. 2022 à 08:56, kockie69 @.***> a écrit :

OK,

I think there was an issue. New version available:

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1696630934

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[kockie69]

I have also added the lin/exp switch. Haven't tested that one properly but thought I publish it.

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1696903496

[kockie69]

Double click at stepping 'none' now gives ratio 1.

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1697514454

Input FM should be polyphonic too, but I see for some reason it is not reflected in the output. Looking at that one.

[tanabarbier]

Le ven. 14 janv. 2022 à 12:56, kockie69 @.***> a écrit :

Double click at stepping 'none' now gives ratio 1.

That is awesome ! Thank you.

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1697514454

Input FM should be polyphonic too, but I see for some reason it is not reflected in the output. Looking at that one.

Great !

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[kockie69]

FM is now polyphonic too.

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1697644553

So the point is, that we calculate the number of polyphonic channels by looking at the input with the highest nr of channels. So now I am only looking at the following 3 inputs: VCA Input, V/Oct Input, FM input.

Does this make sense, or should we check all the inputs?

[mosesve]

Well... now that everything is polyphonic, I think we should consider making the Ratio polyphonic too.

Think about this: For a 4-OP-Algorythm you could use just two modules. One with three different ratios set, normalized V/Oct from monophonic channel to all three active Channels (set by Ratio-Input), merge the output into Carrier. Or just use one Operator and send Channel 4 into FM Input 3, Channel 3 into 2, 2 into 1, 1 to Mixer....

Is this feasible?

[mosesve]

Oh, and a question. I know that some modules are normalizing an input to other channels, if only a monophonic source is connected. Is this here the case for all polyphonic inputs?

[mosesve]

The inverted enveloppe still feels weird, we'll have to use an extra module. Is it to save the use of a button activating the "VCA controlled by Env input mode" ?

Let me explain. After I tested it, it is working as expected.

The "normal behavior" is VCA-Knob fully CCW at Zero + a normal envelope (AD for example) as Input. When the Polarity Switch is set to Pos it is working like a normal VCA-Envelope Combination. This setting is mainly for the Carrier as a Volume-Shaping Envelope for the Sound Generator. Green Line on the Scope below. 0V Knob + xV Envelope = Output (of the carrier)

The most useful inverted setting is Knob fully CW at 100% and Polarity in inversed mode. Now an envelope is like a ducking effect, depending on the envelope you are using. This is mainly for a modulator which is then put into the carrier FM-Input. With the right Envelope you can now get an effect, where the FM-Amount is at maximum when triggered, then fades out and in again. Yellow Line on the scope. 10V Knob - xV Envelope = Output (of the modulator)

[kockie69]

At the moment , if a monophonic input is added, the other channels (2 till maxchannels) will be 0

[kockie69]

The inverted enveloppe still feels weird, we'll have to use an extra module. Is it to save the use of a button activating the "VCA controlled by Env input mode" ?

Let me explain. After I tested it, it is working as expected.

The "normal behavior" is VCA-Knob fully CCW at Zero + a normal envelope (AD for example) as Input. When the Polarity Switch is set to Pos it is working like a normal VCA-Envelope Combination. This setting is mainly for the Carrier as a Volume-Shaping Envelope for the Sound Generator. Green Line on the Scope below. 0V Knob + xV Envelope = Output (of the carrier)

The most useful inverted setting is Knob fully CW at 100% and Polarity in inversed mode. Now an envelope is like a ducking effect, depending on the envelope you are using. This is mainly for a modulator which is then put into the carrier FM-Input. With the right Envelope you can now get an effect, where the FM-Amount is at maximum when triggered, then fades out and in again. Yellow Line on the scope. 10V Knob - xV Envelope = Output (of the modulator)

Yes exactly as it should be I think and I already got nice effects using it

[kockie69]

At the moment , if a monophonic input is added, the other channels (2 till maxchannels) will be 0

At the moment , if a monophonic input is added, the other channels (2 till maxchannels) will be 0

[mosesve]

At the moment , if a monophonic input is added, the other channels (2 till maxchannels) will be 0

What I meant was when you have let's say 4 channels defined by V/Oct and you use a monophonic Modsource on Shape, will that effect all 4 channels or only the first? I will test that, the behavior should be in the manual I think.

[kockie69]

OK, I have a version ready that also has poly for Ratio implemented. I would say, give it a try this weekend (if time permits):

https://github.com/kockie69/RPJ/actions/runs/1701201941