kubernetes-sigs / kustomize

Customization of kubernetes YAML configurations
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support for common labels that don't get set on selectors #1009

Closed pwittrock closed 3 years ago

pwittrock commented 5 years ago

certain labels such as version shouldn't be propagated to selectors, but are common to the entire app.

monopole commented 5 years ago

Not possible with code as is :(

Could enrich the configuration of the current label applier to accept more rules, or write a new label transformer plugin and use that instead of the commonLabels field.

Benjamintf1 commented 5 years ago

If it is not possible to have common labels not apply to the selectors, then you should consider removing support for the common labels feature. Its a trap feature which is almost certain to cause users trouble. In the current state is encourages you to NEVER change your labels and is very anti-ci.

Benjamintf1 commented 5 years ago

Either that, or change the name of commonLabels to commonLabelsAndSelectors. Because I don't think anyone who's worked on kubernetes for a while to expect it to be added to selectors with that name. Adding to selectors is bad, especially because you're expected to have continuity(there's a reason these are seperate fields rather then just one and the same).

embik commented 5 years ago

This behaviour should - at the very least - be clearly documented because it's going to leave you with orphaned resources in case you update your commonLabels, e.g. pods spawned by a previous iteration of a DaemonSet will continue running after the label matching has been altered by updating commonLabels. (edit: it is documented that commonLabels will apply to selectors, but maybe we want a warning there becase most people won't see the consequences).

In my humble opinion, commonLabels should not propagate to templates or selectors at all. I guess changing its behaviour is far too late and would break kustomize for a lot of people, but what about introducing a new commonUnpropagatedLabels (please chose a different name, I'm just terrible at naming things) that will ignore templates and selectors?

Benjamintf1 commented 5 years ago

Well it will either cause non spawning pods, OR if your version of kubernetes is new enough, it will simply fail as selectors have become immutable in newer versions.

Benjamintf1 commented 5 years ago

I DO have fear that commonUnpropagatedLabels could become RealMysqlEscapeString and I think that's the bigger risk. These sort of "The REAL thing you want is the thing with the different name because we didn't want to break backwards compatibility" is a pretty big gross problem in a lot of projects, and I think can be a big long term concern.

seans3 commented 5 years ago

Because this issue causes failures, marking this as a bug.

/sig cli /kind bug

monopole commented 5 years ago

@Benjamintf1 @embik thanks for the great commentary.

The upside to propagation of labels to selectors is convenience and accuracy. In directory foo, the directive commonLabel foo will associate a Service in that directory with all pods created in that directory with no typo mistakes. Same in directory bar, etc. Some encapsulating overlay kustomization can combine foo and bar by mentioning them as bases, and add a wider-scoped label (which also propagates to selectors).

One doesn't have to change labels - one can just add more, leaving the old labels in place, and proceed with some label deprecation scheme across the cluster as time passes.

In favor of

but would like more evidence that automatic propagation to selectors is a poor choice for default behavior.

Benjamintf1 commented 5 years ago

There is also a possible usecase of having the same thing deployed twice using different labels, but you'd need more then that to make it functional (Including deploying to a different namespace, but also you might have some troubles with cluster resources, so basically you'd have to fuzz the name, or location of everything to get it to work).

I'm not aware of a solid way to deprecate selectors at all at the moment. The best solution one Could do something with --prune these days (I think, looks like a new feature), but even then, you'd want that as a common label that doesn't apply to the selectors.

Part of the reason I think propagating to selectors is a bad choice is because it isn't clear. In my personal opinion, you should use a absolutely minimal set of labels for your selectors, and have additional labels for querying and understanding (arguably some of them could be annotations for performance reasons, but I havn't seen that be a problem in my experience), because of the absolute need for continuity between earlier and later applied files.

I think there IS a usecase for both commonLabels and commonSelectors(Or you could call this "Common Distinguishers", or some other derived term), but I don't think these options should be combined in the same configuration. I think there's more clarity in having them as seperate paths because they are entirely different usecases and goals.

embik commented 5 years ago

@monopole

One doesn't have to change labels - one can just add more, leaving the old labels in place, and proceed with some label deprecation scheme across the cluster as time passes.

I might be wrong here, but won't exactly that result in orphaned pods? Because adding additional commonLabels will append them to your selector, which means pods spawned by the previous iteration of your deployment/daemonset won't be selected by your controller object anymore (the existing pods miss the added label and thus are not selected).

I'll throw together a short demonstration of that if I find the time.

monopole commented 5 years ago

the tldr of https://kubernetes.io/docs/concepts/workloads/controllers/deployment/#label-selector-updates is make a plan (the 'label deprecation scheme' i alluded to above), and understand that changing workload selectors really means creating new workloads and deprecating old ones, and having to delete them on your own. kustomize doesn't create this problem.

How about a new term kustomization term commonSelectedLabels that does what commonLabels does now, and change the behavior of commonLabels to behave as commonAnnotations does, i.e. just add KV pairs to metadata, and don't mess with selectors.

This breaks existing behaviors, so we'd have to increment the version in the kustomization file (which is a pain, since that adds text to all kustomization files that is currently optional since there's only one version).

Any other ideas?

jnewland commented 5 years ago

I came across this issue while trying to add a revision-based label to all pods in a Kustomization and then use it as a part of confirming that all Pods of that version were ready later. In this case, I feel like I do want this label to be propagated down into workload templates, but don't want it to be propagated to selectors.

Any other ideas?

This desired additional dimension of customizability and the above commentary about breaking current functionality make me wonder if it might be worth considering introducing a new commonLabelOptions term that could be used as follows:

commonLabels:
  existingLabel: something
  # generated by CI tooling via `kustomize edit add label`
  revision: decaf123

commonLabelOptions:
  defaults:
    propagateToSpecTemplate: true
    propagateToSelectors: false
  labels:
    existingLabel:
      propagateToSpecTemplate: true
      propagateToSelectors: true

I do agree that propagation to selectors should probably be off by default, but this approach might support deferring changing the apiVersion for a while if that's desired.

Benjamintf1 commented 5 years ago

If the tact is to go down the path of being customized off the same "root" option, why not have

commonLabels:
  existingLabel:
    value: something
    propagateToSpecTemplate: true
    propagateToSelectors: false

It keeps the locality of the options a bit better, especially if you scale the number of labels you want.

(You can also keep some degree of backwards compatibility with this by treating a single string as the old way and eventually deprecating it, but having added labels be added in the new way)

sascha-coenen commented 5 years ago

as I explained in thread https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kustomize/issues/157 propagating labels to selectors is actually wrong thinking, a "trap" as Benjamin put it.

The commonLabels are meant to "tag" those resources that YOU create with your kustomize setup. The selectors constitute an ID that points to a resource that cannot be assumed to be under your auspieces. Making this assumption is completely arbitrary.

As a mind-aid, consider the case that you want to register stored procedures with a database.

kind: storedProcedure version: ... spec: SELECT * FROM some_table

if this manifest was under the control of kustomize and you had defined commonLabels, then this SQL statement itself is YOUR resource and you might expect that when it gets registered with a database, that it would get tagged with your commonLabels. However, those commonLabels should never modify the name of the database table "some_table"/ How strange it would be if someone proposed that this should happen. To rename commonLabels into commonLabelsAndSelectors is besides the point, which is that you would never want to rewrite selectors because this would falsify an identity. Saying "yeah but some_table might also have been created by me" is a possible usecase, but there is no reason for why this usecase should get any preference over the opposite case which is that the resource has NOT been created by you or is not part of your set of kustomization setups.

A sensible default would therefore be to not temper with selectors. The case for adding labels to selectors would be to thereby give them another identity. One can allow for this special case, but then one should make it very explicit and not confuse it with labels which are meant to tag YOUR resources and are not a templating facility for modifying the identity of foreign keys.

voidengineer commented 5 years ago

If the tact is to go down the path of being customized off the same "root" option, why not have

commonLabels:
  existingLabel:
    value: something
    propagateToSpecTemplate: true
    propagateToSelectors: false

It keeps the locality of the options a bit better, especially if you scale the number of labels you want.

(You can also keep some degree of backwards compatibility with this by treating a single string as the old way and eventually deprecating it, but having added labels be added in the new way)

With this approach it is not obvious how to change the defaults.

Benjamintf1 commented 5 years ago
With this approach it is not obvious how to change the defaults.

You can presumably leave off the "defaulting" options if you have them separate. You'd presumably learn it the same way, via documentation.

guibirow commented 5 years ago

If I understood correctly, the reason the selectors are modified is because changing the label in a resource will change it's identity in case it is used by a selector.

Implementing a new approach will have the same problem,. because you might change a label expected by the selector that didn't change.

The selector is updated do add the new labels where in fact it should only change the existing ones that where changed.

IMHO this shouldn't be a breaking change, is more like a bug fix, because nobody was expecting this dodgy behaviour.

taha-au commented 5 years ago

A possible solution here may be to introduce the concept of commonSelectors that, if present, would be populated into the selectors instead of the commonLabels. For example:

commonLabels:
   app: foo
   environment: dev
commonSelectors:
    app: foo
    release: bar

Would generate selectors of app: foo and release: bar but not environment: dev, while the labels would be app: foo and environment: dev. This would allow for more flexibility.

If commonSelectors is absent, then commonLabels could continue to work as it does currently. This would allow the expected behaviour for current users to remain the same, while giving people an opportunity to do other things if needed.

However, this doesn't address the problem that selectors, by design, are usually meant to be more directed. As such, this should probably be extended to allow the generation of more specific selectors in specific objects, or to allow the exclusion of the generation from specified objects.

darwin67 commented 5 years ago

Looks like it's already available. https://kubectl.docs.kubernetes.io/pages/reference/kustomize.html?q=#meta-options

quentinleclerc commented 5 years ago

Hello, I've been facing the exact same problem of putting the version in commonLabels.

@darwin67 you're right but this can be quite a problem if you have tens of microservices. The personalized configuration file for kustomize (the one your link is pointing to) should be present in ALL the folders.

Something like @taha-au suggested is probably a good idea. Or the possibility to specify the paths (metadata/labels, spec/selector/, ...) directly in the kustomization.yaml file.

---
commonLabels:
  paths: 
    - kind: Deployment
      paths: [ "metadata/labels", "spec/selector" ]
    - kind: Service
      paths: ["metadata/labels"]
  labels: 
    app: foo
    environment: dev
    version: 1.0.0 
darwin67 commented 5 years ago

I'm not sure what you mean by ALL though.

We kind of have similar situations but we structure it in a way that we only put the common configurations in each base so we always just reference the base from the overlays and the overlays can go a little crazy with multiple versions of the same base, so let's say I have 10 bases and I want 3 versions for each of the app, the max amount of common configurations I need is only 10.

Maybe the configurations setting can be improved but me as an everyday user is actually kind of happy the way it is right now and the reason is because we use Istio and having the version info propagated actually helps with dynamic traffic routing, like mirroring and A/B testing.

I get the idea that people want to set everything in one place but I thought the whole idea of this tool is about composition, so centralizing the configurations in one place doesn't really defeat the purpose but I feel like it's moving away from that idea. Just my 2 cents.

quentinleclerc commented 5 years ago

I guess it depends on how your services are setup. In my case we have a setup that looks something like this, with a repo/monorepo:

micro-service-1/
-----------------base/
-----------------develop/
-----------------staging/
        ...
micro-service-X/
-----------------base/
-----------------develop/
        ...

My point on my previous message being that if the whole company (or certain teams in charge of multiple micro-services) use the same "custom" kustomize configuration, we would have to "copy" the kustomize configuration in each micro-service-#/base folder. I totally agree on the tool being about composition, but in a certain limit i guess. Maybe our architecture/use of overlays is not optimal, just relating about how we use it.

I think the only way to do this currently is to publish a base that has this custom configuration and have all the micro-services use the same base. However only github is supported for remote bases.

darwin67 commented 5 years ago

Maybe having git supported for remote bases could help? Like how you can reference a remote terraform module with the git reference, like tags or even the sha.

paveq commented 5 years ago

Another reason why labels should not be applied on selectors by default: defining NetworkPolicy that allows ingress to application's web pods:

apiVersion: networking.k8s.io/v1
kind: NetworkPolicy
metadata:
  name: app-access
spec:
  podSelector:
    matchLabels:
      app.kubernetes.io/component: web
      app.kubernetes.io/name: web-app
  policyTypes:
  - Ingress
...

Suddenly some labels get applied to podSelector from commonLabels, making it possible for any pod to communicate with eg. database that happens to have that common label (such as client id or project name in our case).

I would flag this as potential security issue.

benjamin-bergia commented 5 years ago

CommonLabels not updating selectors would be really annoying. Wouldn't adding a labels transformer where you could specify a target (maybe reusing the syntax of jsonPatch target) solve the issue? Like in

labels:
  - target:
      group: apps
      version: v1
      kind: Deployment
      name: test
    labels:
      version: v0.1.0

Or follow whatever the new syntax for multi target patches will be.

zhouhaibing089 commented 5 years ago

Ah, since commonLabels directive adds labels to spec.selector.matchLabels, I have to add another patch to remove it.

- op: remove
  path: /spec/selector/matchLabels/<mylabel>
- op: remove
  path: /spec/template/metadata/labels/<mylabel>

And in kustomization.yaml

patchesJson6902:
# this is hacky because of https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kustomize/issues/1009
- target:
    group: apps
    version: v1
    kind: Deployment
    name: git-apply
  path: patches/rm-deploy-common-label-in-selector.yaml

Honestly, I don't like the behavior to apply common labels to spec.selector at all, it makes the adoption harder(manage an existing deployment via kustomize) since those fields are immutable which is very annoying.

bytheway commented 5 years ago

We just hit this unexpected behavior in kustomize, trying to add a version label to use in istio routing. Having it added to the selector is very problematic now that it is an immutable field:

[]v1.LabelSelectorRequirement(nil)}: field is immutable

seh commented 5 years ago

I hit this problem today, trying to bring an existing DaemonSet under a new kustomization root. I can't use commonLabels to add a new label to the DaemonSet, because it tries to mutate the DaemonSet's label selector, which is immutable.

seh commented 5 years ago

Looks like it's already available. https://kubectl.docs.kubernetes.io/pages/reference/kustomize.html?q=#meta-options

@darwin67, when I tried to override the configuration for the "spec/selector/matchLabels" path in DaemonSet like this,

commonLabels:
- kind: DaemonSet
  path: spec/selector/matchLabels
  create: false

kustomize rejects it, complaining as follows:

Error: conflicting fieldspecs

That tells me that it's not possible to override the built-in rules.

emas80 commented 5 years ago

This is very annoying, since the label selectors are immutable. It makes very hard to migrate a current setup.

emas80 commented 5 years ago

Hi, just getting back to add another very annoying issue.

The labels are applied also to the service selector, this means that until some new pods created from the new deployment are running and healthy, the new service does not have any end points! Istio was very unhappy when we've tried this.

It makes the migration of a production setup practically impossible without any downtime.

We are adding two patches, one for the deployment and the other one for the services, to remove from the selectors the labels we do not want to be added in order to handle the transition, like @zhouhaibing089 is doing.

michaelkrupp commented 5 years ago

I am also very much in favor of not applying commonLabels to selectors by default for the reasons mentioned above. Especially after the selectors have become immutable in current Kubernetes Deployments and DaemonSets.

As @taha-au mentioned, splitting label and selectors would allow much better control.

The following approach would also allow to easily define defaults, similar to what already exists via the configurations:

commonLabels: &labels
  app.kubernetes.io/version: v1.2
  app.kubernetes.io/name: my-app

commonSelectors:
  app.kubernetes.io/name:
    # [explicit] set labels at spec.selector for v1.Service types
    - kind: Service
      version: v1
      path: spec/selector
      create: true
    # [with defaults] set labels at spec.selector.matchLabels for Deployment types
    - kind: Deployment

This would allow much finer control over which labels get applied where. One could also mostly re-use the current configurations as default values for commonSelectors.

However, this could also be used for other applications, not just for matchLabels / selector. One could basically apply these mutations to all sorts of things.

And this is where we come back to plain old patches. Given that we already have a mechanism to apply patches to resources, why not simply re-use this mechanism and drop the restriction on having to specify a name? (#1568) Instead one could use a selector mechanism similar to what Kubernetes does - based on labels, annotations, kinds, versions, names, whatever...

Maybe even allowing to define a patch inside kustomization.yml instead of having to have it in a separate file, referenced via path:. This would allow users to make use of YAML anchors to avoid some repetition.

This would give maximum control of how and where these matchLabels and selectors are applied, would involve much less "magic" and re-use functionality that is already there anyway.

benjamin-bergia commented 5 years ago

The nice thing with commonLabels is that it's dead simple. The patches syntax is nice but more complex. Why not just whitelisting labels for selectors as in:

commonLabels:
  app.kubernetes.io/version: v1.2
  app.kubernetes.io/name: my-app

selectorLabels:
  - app.kubernetes.io/name

Then if there are different services that have different selectors, maybe they deserve their own kustomization.yml file?

michaelkrupp commented 5 years ago

with this, you would still not solve the problem of having them applied to sections where you do not want them applied to. @sascha-coenen explained the issue of inheritance above.

Making it explicit avoids these cases, as you yourself state where you want which label applied to. This also avoids unexpected behavior, as we currently see with orphaned resources on older Kubernetes or failed deployments on newer Kubernetes due to the selectors changing.

monopole commented 4 years ago

Doing an overdue bug sweep.

This issue could have been closed when plugins were released, because they provide support for common labels that don't get set on selectors.

This support isn't provided by changing the behavior of the commonLabels field, or by introducing a new labels-oriented kustomization field alongside commonLabels. It's supported by using the existing transformers field to directly configure the (builtin) LabelTransformer plugin.

An example to follow is here:

https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kustomize/blob/master/api/internal/target/customconfigreusable_test.go

A new issue issue could be opened to request a new kustomization field, if some agreement can be established on how it would behave. Behind the scenes that hypothetical new field would just be running the LabelTransformer with a particular hardcoded config.

digi691 commented 4 years ago

@monopole This link doesn't exist: https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kustomize/blob/master/api/internal/target/customconfigreusable_test.go

nlamirault commented 4 years ago

@monopole do you have an example to setup labels on metadata, without add them on selector ? Thanks.

monopole commented 4 years ago

@digi691 it moved: https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kustomize/blob/master/api/krusty/customconfigreusable_test.go

These tests are written as high level examples, so I felt it misleading and off-putting to have them buried in an internal package. So I moved them up to the api's main entry point. Sorry about the dead link.

monopole commented 4 years ago

@nlamirault see previous comment

nlamirault commented 4 years ago

Thanks. Another example here: https://github.com/viadee/kustomize-examples/blob/master/overlays/custom-metadata-labels/metadataLabelTransformer.yaml

From #330

haf-afa commented 4 years ago

@monopole Can I then use kustomize edit set label version=v0.4.2 with the LabelTransformer? Do you have a link to the 'new kustomization field' that would let us update both the image version and corresponding version as a single atomic command?

steinybot commented 4 years ago

Ah, since commonLabels directive adds labels to spec.selector.matchLabels, I have to add another patch to remove it.

- op: remove
  path: /spec/selector/matchLabels/<mylabel>
- op: remove
  path: /spec/template/metadata/labels/<mylabel>

And in kustomization.yaml

patchesJson6902:
# this is hacky because of https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kustomize/issues/1009
- target:
    group: apps
    version: v1
    kind: Deployment
    name: git-apply
  path: patches/rm-deploy-common-label-in-selector.yaml

Honestly, I don't like the behavior to apply common labels to spec.selector at all, it makes the adoption harder(manage an existing deployment via kustomize) since those fields are immutable which is very annoying.

@zhouhaibing089 How did you get this to work?

I am using the Prometheus Operator and commonLabels breaks it. The service gets the selector but the operator doesn't add this label to the pods so the service can't find any of the pods. Very frustrating.

I can't seem to add a patch to remove the selector either:

❯ kustomize build overlays/cicd
Error: accumulating resources: recursed accumulation of path '/Users/jason/source/observability/monitoring-stack/overlays/cicd/monitoring': failed to apply json patch '[{"op":"remove","path":"/spec/selector/variant"}]': error in remove for path: '/spec/selector/variant': Unable to remove nonexistent key: variant: missing value

Even though the Prometheus service does get it:

apiVersion: v1
kind: Service
metadata:
  labels:
    prometheus: k8s
    variant: cicd
  name: prometheus-k8s
  namespace: monitoring
spec:
  ports:
  - name: web
    port: 9090
    targetPort: web
  selector:
    app: prometheus
    prometheus: k8s
    variant: cicd
  sessionAffinity: ClientIP

It seems annoyingly that the patch is being applied before the commonLabels even though this is not the case for other kustomize fields such as namespace which does get applied before the patch.

zhouhaibing089 commented 4 years ago

@steinybot: My structure looks like this:

base/
  kustomization.yaml
  deployment.yaml
overlay/
  foo/
    kustomization.yaml
    patches.yaml

In this example, I have commonLabels specified in overlay/foo/kustomization.yaml, and my patch is also specified in overlay/foo/patches.yaml.

Could you share your structure a little bit more? It seems your patch is not specified in overlay.

steinybot commented 4 years ago

I forget exactly what I tried. I ended up just embracing this weirdness and found the setting in prometheus-operators that allows me to add labels to the pods it creates (podMetadata from https://github.com/coreos/prometheus-operator/blob/master/Documentation/api.md#prometheusspec).

edwardstudy commented 4 years ago

Ah, since commonLabels directive adds labels to spec.selector.matchLabels, I have to add another patch to remove it.

- op: remove
  path: /spec/selector/matchLabels/<mylabel>
- op: remove
  path: /spec/template/metadata/labels/<mylabel>

And in kustomization.yaml

patchesJson6902:
# this is hacky because of https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kustomize/issues/1009
- target:
    group: apps
    version: v1
    kind: Deployment
    name: git-apply
  path: patches/rm-deploy-common-label-in-selector.yaml

Honestly, I don't like the behavior to apply common labels to spec.selector at all, it makes the adoption harder(manage an existing deployment via kustomize) since those fields are immutable which is very annoying.

Only this method worked for me on kubectl:

kubectl version --client
Client Version: version.Info{Major:"1", Minor:"18", GitVersion:"v1.18.2", GitCommit:"52c56ce7a8272c798dbc29846288d7cd9fbae032", GitTreeState:"clean", BuildDate:"2020-04-16T11:56:40Z", GoVersion:"go1.13.9", Compiler:"gc", Platform:"darwin/amd64"}

metadataLabelTransformer wasn't supported on kubectl v1.18.2.

L-U-C-K-Y commented 4 years ago

Hi all

I face a similar issue when I try to update the "version" label in the CI/CD pipeline. I execute

cd base
kustomize edit add label version:xyz123
kustomize build ../overlays/production | kubectl apply -f -

And receive the following error:

MatchExpressions:[]v1.LabelSelectorRequirement(nil)}: field is immutable

Has anyone found a viable workaround to update the version label during deployment?

monopole commented 3 years ago

Bringing this back to life as it's still being requested and we may have someone to work on it.

Summary:

The commonLabels directive tells the LabelTransformer to add name:value pairs to fields specified in its default config.

The convenience here is that one doesn't have to specify the fields that should get labels. The price paid is lack of control, e.g. sometimes getting unwanted labels in selector fields.

The default configuration can be overridden by declaring a transformers: field in the kustomization file referring to the LabelTransformer.

We should not change the schema of the commonLabels field. It would create too much confusion. Technically we could do so if we incremented the version number in the kustomization struct/file, but IMO, it's not worth it.

Some ideas from above

Suggestions

The simplest thing might be just make it a list of label transformer plugin configs, e.g.

labels:
  -  pairs:
       bird: eagle
     fields:
     - path: spec/selector/matchLabels
       kind: Whatever
  -  pairs:
       fruit: apple
       truck: f150
     fields:
     - kind: Deployment
     - kind: Service

Implicit here would be that metadata/labels should always get the label, so that particular path doesn't need to be specified here.

It has to be simpler than using the raw LabelTransformer config, because that's the whole point of these abbreviations.

monopole commented 3 years ago

@Shell32-Natsu wdyt?

rcomanne commented 3 years ago

As I've stated in my dupe issue, I think the best solution for this would be to have two separate properties in your Kustomization file, one that will add Labels just as labels, and one that will add them as labels and selector labels.
I think the cleanest solution for this would be this;

ommonLabels:
  app.kubernetes.io/owner: ATeam

selectorLabels:
  app.kubernetes.io/name: my-app

Although I do understand that this will introduce breaking changes in current deployments and will require manual interaction with resources, I still think this would be the most clear to users of Kustomize.

Shell32-Natsu commented 3 years ago

@monopole LGTM, will do it when I have time.