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le717 / LDR-Importer

Import LDraw .dat and .ldr models into Blender 3D
GNU General Public License v2.0
61 stars 19 forks source link

Project Rename #23

Closed rioforce closed 10 years ago

rioforce commented 10 years ago

Since Blender is going into it's 2.7 line soon, and obviously nobody uses Blender 2.5 or 2.4 (if they do, the original script will work for them), we should rename this project from

Blender 2.6 LDraw Importer

to

Blender LDraw Importer

(The Blender in the front is just for clarity on GitHub, the official script name should be LDraw Importer).

le717 commented 10 years ago

Check this out:

http://www.ldraw.org/article/281.html#2_06_the_use_of_the_name_ldraw_in_ldraw_related_programs

"LDraw.org uses the LDraw trademark with permission from the Jessiman Estate, therefore we cannot grant permission to third parties to use it. It is also our definition that the LDraw trademark represents the LDraw System of Tools and the LDraw Parts Library, so it is our policy that LDraw should not appear in a program's title and/or URL to protect the uniqueness of the LDraw trademark.

We recommend that programs/websites wishing to identify with LDraw choose titles that add "LD" in front of the name as a way to associate the program as part of the LDraw software family."

le717 commented 10 years ago

/cc @Banbury @Tribex

le717 commented 10 years ago

I quoted that text to point out that we cannot use "LDraw" in the project name. Yes, it can be used in the menus and other places where it is required, but we can't seem to use it in the project name. To comply with the bylaws, I would suggest

LDBlender

to be the new project name.

If/when the change is agreed on, it will not be done until all pending/possible changes from branches and forks has been resolved. If it were to happen this next release (v1.1), it will come once everything is done and the script is ready for release.

No matter when it happens, I'll be the one to update the project. I will push a commit or two to warn of the pending change and not to edit until it is complete, which at that time I push another commit saying it is complete.

JoshTheDerf commented 10 years ago

Understood.

le717 commented 10 years ago

So you don't have a suggestion for a name, Tribex? This is a group decision here. All suggestions are welcome. : )

JoshTheDerf commented 10 years ago

Heh, if there's one thing in the world that I'm bad at, it's names. Can't think of em, can't remember them.

Anyhow, the simple choices would be (that I can think of):

LDBlender LDImporter LD2Blender BlendLD - Does this comply with bylaws?

Good night/morning!

rioforce commented 10 years ago

Actually, since it's not a program, and it does not actually use the LDraw library (since it's an importer, and it imports the files) it doesn't need LD in front or it to be called LDBlender or something like that. For example, Stanford, Wavefront, and COLLADA don't do strange naming schemes for their scripts. They are import scripts. Our script does not import an LDBlender file, they import an LDraw file. For clarity, we need to call it LDraw Importer (or something like that) both on GitHub and in Blender.

JoshTheDerf commented 10 years ago

Maybe Ldr Imporder? Just to be on the safe side?

Also, doesn't it technically rely-on/use the LDraw library? It scans and reads it for colors and reads parts from it, IMHO that counts as using it...

Are there any higher-ups we could ask?

Banbury commented 10 years ago

How about we just wait, until someone complains?

le717 commented 10 years ago

Also, doesn't it technically rely-on/use the LDraw library? It scans and reads it for colors and reads parts from it, IMHO that counts as using it...

Are there any higher-ups we could ask?

  1. I would say the same thing. Since it parses the format and reads it, I was say it indeed uses it.
  2. I'm working on contacting someone on the LDraw.org Steering Committee, but I cannot seem to sign up for the forums (I've emailed them about the issue). I'll post the topic link once I can ask.

How about we just wait, until someone complains?

That would also work. However, I'm planning on advertising the project more after v1.1 is released, including on the LDraw.org forums, and I cannot with a clear conscience go there and advertise something that I am almost certain violates the bylaws. Plus, we kinda need to rename it anyway, since Blender 2.7 will be coming up in the near future...

Once I can get in contact with someone about what complies and what does not, there will be a better idea of where to go next.

rioforce commented 10 years ago

LDR importer is fine, but LDR isn't actually saying what format your are importing. LDR is another type of CAD file used by WindLDR (I read it online, so it might not be accurate). But still, if someone doesn't know, and they look it up, they would say "Oh, I don't use WindLDR...".

The script uses the library, but it does not distribute it. It requires you to install LDraw seperately. That means that it isn't a program that distributes LDraw, so we need to use a descriptive name.

le717 commented 10 years ago

Rioforce and I have left a message on the LDraw.org forum asking about this. Hopefully we'll get a reply soon. :)

le717 commented 10 years ago

We have feedback.

http://forums.ldraw.org/read.php?13,10609,10609#msg-10609

You guys know of anything I need to say in a reply?

Banbury commented 10 years ago

"Thank you."? :wink:

My legal understanding of this is limited. But as far as I can see, this is primarily a question of courtesy and not legality. If the Jessiman estate holds a trademark (which I doubt), then it's their responsibility to enforce it. A trademark is also purely for commercial purposes. We don't sell anything, so a trademark doesn't apply to us. I have to admit, I don't like the attitude of the LDraw guys. They should be happy to have software, that supports the LDraw standard, instead of abusing trademark laws.

Banbury commented 10 years ago

Just as I thought. I couldn't find any LDraw trademark either for the US or the EU. Trademarks are expensive and have to be used in commerce to stay valid. One cannot just claim to hold a trademark,

rioforce commented 10 years ago

My legal understanding of this is limited. But as far as I can see, this is primarily a question of courtesy and not legality. If the Jessiman estate holds a trademark (which I doubt), then it's their responsibility to enforce it. A trademark is also purely for commercial purposes. We don't sell anything, so a trademark doesn't apply to us. I have to admit, I don't like the attitude of the LDraw guys. They should be happy to have software, that supports the LDraw standard, instead of abusing trademark laws.

:+1: on that post!

I couldn't find any Trademarks either... On the bottom of the site, it says 2003-2012 (but that's for the website LDraw.org). If LDraw truly is an open format like they say on the site, I think they should allow people to at least say what an importer script is importing. LDR Import would do, but that's a bit vague for GitHub. We cannot call it LEGO LDR Import, because LEGO doesn't own LDR format so we can't call it that. Even LEGO allows people to say their name in a title of a program (like a fan-video game). We can clearly put a disclaimer in the description saying that this isn't official LDraw, because it's not made by the few maintainers of LDraw. Plus, if LDraw is an open-format than we should be able to say that it imports LDraw files (and we don't even re-distributing the brricks, so we aren't damaging the LDraw standard except for cleanup on import, and even that is an improvement). And like Banbury said, we aren't abusing trademark laws because we are not selling this and making money off their name. After all, we do include a link to their site and clearly say it's our script, not offcial LDraw.

EDIT: I found this on their site:

(On the bottom of this page http://www.ldraw.org/community/just-james.html )

"One remarkable and very pleasing fact about this phase is that all such programmers have followed James's lead in allowing free public access to their work. 'IT'S A TOY, NOT A BUSINESS.'"

afolas commented 10 years ago

Hi all together,

I followed the discussions about naming your script here and at ldraw.org with great interest. As a "old man lego fan" and member of SwissLUG I'm using LDraw's part library together with MLCad, LDView and LPub to virtually create my MOCs. At the LDraw Forum I didn't want to participate in this matter due to escalating a little bit :-)

The LDraw team is more concentrating on the part library, not explicitely on the tools (programs) around the library, I think. I understand that all additional existing tools and such in developement are efforts of individuals as a hobby. This developers are feeling free to dig into such a project but also to end up the project and leave at any time and in any state. So "LDraw" is a virtual world of different things.

What you are importing could not be "LDraw", it is the product of a CAD tool which is using the part library to build virtual Lego models, simply a LDR file. With what kind of tool such a LDR file has been created is not relevant. System requirements are, together with Blender and your Script, LDraw's Part Library (structured collection of .DAT files, not less but not more) and a LDraw file .LDR. Not sure if your Script can handle .MPD files too. From my point of view there is no need for using "LDraw" as part of the script name. People who are familiar with LDraw using your script know about the meaning of LDR.

MLcad leaves a lot to be desired, that's why some enthusiasts are trying to develope more sophisticated tools, but perfectionning and supporting such a program over a longer time would be a very hard work ... That's why I would like to focus more on a existing and supported 3D-CAD program like Blender. And that's why I like your effort with your script so much ! What I understand is that after importing a LDR file you will be able to render the model ? Would it be also possible to modify the imported model in Blender in a simple way ?

It is my great desire (and the desire of many other AFOLs, I'm very sure about) one day to be able to use blender to virtually build Lego models. But then we need a script which allows to import LDraw's part library, the possibility to have this imported library available in Blender, and last but not least a "featured down" Blender version with only the needed functionality to get parts from the imported LDraw library and snap them together !

Can I understand and hope for your script as a first step of such a project ? That would bring shine to my eyes :-)

Please apologize that I have turned me into your discussion, I could not stop it ...

Best regards, Arthur

le717 commented 10 years ago

Hey! I got your comment on WordPress, but haven't got to reply yet.

Please apologize that I have turned me into your discussion, I could not stop it ...

No, it's all good, though you may want to make a new issue with the message so everything will be on-topic and the discussion won't be lost once the rename is complete. :wink:

le717 commented 10 years ago

Oops! Sorry sir, my bad. Have the comment relates to the name change, and other a question. Last night I was referring to the second half that might want to be put on another issue. :wink:

afolas commented 10 years ago

Sorry, but I'm now a litle bit confused, it's all ok, or not ?

Am 10.11.2013 14:04, schrieb Triangle717:

Oops! Sorry sir, my bad. Have the comment relates to the name change, and other a question. Last night I was referring to the second half that might want to be put on another issue. :wink:

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/le717/Blender-2.6-LDraw-Importer/issues/23#issuecomment-28150198.

le717 commented 10 years ago

Totally sorry. Yes, everything is A-OK. However, I recommend you open a new issue with the part about a brick system in Blender so the topic is not lost when the rename is complete (and it is almost is). That clear up any? : smiley:

afolas commented 10 years ago

It was a question to you personally. I had some discussions with people from Blender earlier but they are not intersted in. I will getting more sophisticated with Blender, then perhaps I will start a thread there. Unfortunately I am not able to write such a script and I do not have enough skill to analyze such a desired design of Bender. Anyway, thanks a lot !

Arthur

Am 11.11.2013 01:34, schrieb Triangle717:

Totally sorry. Yes, everything is A-OK. However, I recommend you open a new issue with the part about a brick system in Blender so the topic is not lost when the rename is complete (and it is almost is). That clear up any? : smiley:

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/le717/Blender-2.6-LDraw-Importer/issues/23#issuecomment-28165669.

le717 commented 10 years ago

Oh, I misunderstood the whole thing. Please forgive me.

Currently, no, I am not planning on developing a brick building system in Blender. I will say the thought did cross my mind a while back and I found one for 2.5 on Blender Artists, but obviously it does not work anymore. It may be possible to upgrade it for 2.6 but I do not plan on doing such, at least for the time being (who knows, I may reconsider later). As for this being a starting point for such, it is licensed under the GPLv2, and I would be flattered if someone wanted to use it for such a project.

Hopefully I haven't dulled that sparkle in your eye.

JoshTheDerf commented 10 years ago

@le717: May I have (a link or download of) the brick building script for 2.5? (I can't find it in searches) I'd like to see what I can do with it for 2.6, as the API is not extremely different.

afolas commented 10 years ago

That's exactly what I feared :-) Such a project has more "hidden" problems as one can think about at first, it would be time-consuming, I know.

Would it be possible to give me a link to this "first try of brick building system for Blender" please ? Very interested in going over it to understand what this tool/program has intus and if it could sparkle up my eyes again :-) I assure you, to have no ambitions to use outdated information on this project or to pass.

Years ago I have written user applications in high definitin languages as a side effect of my job, but hardware-focussed programming is a nightmare for me, especially implementations. But what I surely could help in such a project is:

At https://github.com/le717/Blender-2.6-LDraw-Importer#readme I can read about contributors: @JrMasterModelBuilder https://github.com/JrMasterModelBuilder. He is developing a BrickBuilder from scratch with focus on animation of Technic models. I suppose he knows a lot about Blender too but wouldn't be willing to pull his attention in this direction, fully understandable :-) But maybe, who knows, he could jump over his shadow a little bit squinting to a existing, well supported 3D-CAD program like Blender. I got the license from him for his "SR 3D Builder" but I still have some problems adapting his user interface, a day I will get it, it's more a problem of elderly persons as I am continously moving in ruts :-))

Hope I didn't bother you with my persistent asking and chatting - it's in my mind to stay on ball ... An important problem in this matter is time, the time which I have left over until dissolving in Sardust. "I know I am part of a story that starts long before I can remember and continues long beyond when anyone will remember me [Long Now: Danny Hillis, Desinger of the 10'000 Year Clock]

Best regards, Arthur

Am 11.11.2013 02:26, schrieb Triangle717:

Oh, I misunderstood the whole thing. Please forgive me.

Currently, no, I am not planning on developing a brick building system in Blender. I will say the thought did cross my mind a while back and I found one for 2.5 on Blender Artists, but obviously it does not work anymore. It may be possible to upgrade it for 2.6 but I do not plan on doing such, at least for the time being (who knows, I may reconsider later). As for this being a starting point for such, it is licensed under the GPLv2, and I would be flattered if someone wanted to use it for such a project.

Hopefully I haven't dulled that sparkle in your eye.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/le717/Blender-2.6-LDraw-Importer/issues/23#issuecomment-28166867.

le717 commented 10 years ago

Have fun, Tribex. I looked at it, it is a start to what Arthur may be looking for (and I think it is), but you'll be better off looking at it for what is is and rewriting the thing from scratch (using a trimmed version of this script for the importing, naturally :wink:). He did some many workarounds and plain dumb (well, dumb to me) ways in it, you'll spend longer fixing than rewriting. It is incomplete (see the replies to the thread), but still, a fresh start will be best for this.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?197767-B25-Lego-Builder

le717 commented 10 years ago

BTW, I have selected a new name for the project. I will announce it soon, most likely tomorrow.

afolas commented 10 years ago

Hi,

I have read over the discussion in given link and was a little bit surprised about "changing faces" a.s.o. To the end of this week I will read all mor eexactly.

Just some quick informations:

Regards, Artrhur

Am 12.11.2013 03:23, schrieb Triangle717:

Have fun, Tribex. I looked at it, it is a start to what Arthur may be looking for (and I think it is), but you'll be better off looking at it for what is is and rewriting the thing from scratch (using a trimmed version of this script for the importing, naturally :wink:). He did some many workarounds and plain dumb (well, dumb to me) ways in it, you'll spend longer fixing than rewriting. It is incomplete (see the replies to the thread), but still, a fresh start will be best for this.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?197767-B25-Lego-Builder

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/le717/Blender-2.6-LDraw-Importer/issues/23#issuecomment-28262747.

le717 commented 10 years ago

OK, the new name for the project has been has been chosen and it is...

LDR Importer

The reasoning behind it is simple. Both Blender users and/or brick builders who use LDraw will understand what it is. If a Blender user wants to build a model in LeoCAD or MLCad, they will learn what an LDR file is and from reading about the project, they will see it imports LDR models. Same goes for builders who know what Blender is. I wanted to keep "BL" or any references to Blender out because I could not find any usage rules on it (only the logo). "LDR" comes from http://www.ldraw.org/article/218.html#extension

All LDraw files carry the LDR (default), DAT or MPD extension.

MPD models are not yet supported, but LDR and DAT is. I chose LDR 1. because that is the most common and default extension for models and is unlikely to change, and 2. I do really like names that state what files it supports exactly (and once MPD support is here, what do I do then, rename it again?).

This all reflects what Arthur said:

What you are importing could not be "LDraw", it is the product of a CAD tool which is using the part library to build virtual Lego models, simply a LDR file. With what kind of tool such a LDR file has been created is not relevant. System requirements are, together with Blender and your Script, LDraw's Part Library (structured collection of .DAT files, not less but not more) and a LDraw file .LDR. Not sure if your Script can handle .MPD files too. From my point of view there is no need for using "LDraw" as part of the script name. People who are familiar with LDraw using your script know about the meaning of LDR.

I am already updating everything on the project_rename branch, along with a major update to the HTML readme. Still have to get #12 in there somehow, but it will happen. Also, the script has been renamed to match the naming scheme of other Blender import addons.

It is not yet time to rename the repo, but it will happen in the next few days. If anyone has anything to add to the v1.1 release, now is the time to do it. :wink:

le717 commented 10 years ago

At https://github.com/le717/Blender-2.6-LDraw-Importer#readme I can read about contributors: https://github.com/JrMasterModelBuilder. He is developing a BrickBuilder from scratch with focus on animation of Technic models. I suppose he knows a lot about Blender too but wouldn't be willing to pull his attention in this direction, fully understandable :-) But maybe, who knows, he could jump over his shadow a little bit squinting to a existing, well supported 3D-CAD program like Blender. I got the license from him for his "SR 3D Builder" but I still have some problems adapting his user interface, a day I will get it, it's more a problem of elderly persons as I am continously moving in ruts :-))

Your confused a bit, my friend. JrMasterModelBuilder is not the one writing SR 3D Builder. He is a friend of mine from a forum, he's the one who actually got me into coding (so I see him as my "mentor"), and I asked him to fix the script for 2.6 back before I started coding. Unless he has been good at hiding that from us... :wink:

I'll attempt to reply to your vision when I can. Busy man, coding is a hobby right now, got a lot of college homework to do. I'm sure you can understand that. :wink:

le717 commented 10 years ago

Both the script and the project has been renamed appropriately. This issue is now closed. Have a nice Thanksgiving. :smiley: