Fed Akira abilities and behaviour

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#1 Akira class should not auto-join existing fleet by default
#2 Akira class "Quantum Torpedoes" ability should automatically fire when
the ship is in range of a structure and the ability is set to auto-cast
(default behaviour) (target priority should be given to starbases if possible)
3# Akira class should not be set to auto-attack as default behaviour

Original issue reported on code.google.com by gianmari...@gmail.com on 11 Jan 2010 at 4:52

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I'm curious why you don't think the Akira or Norway should be set to 
auto-attack or
auto-join fleet.  Every other fed ship is set to these behaviors, and since the 
Akira
and Norway are functioning in a combat capacity in addition to their specialty 
roles
my personal take is that they should mimic those combat behaviors.

Original comment by aaron...@hotmail.com on 11 Jan 2010 at 6:03

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You'd use a fleet of Norways to attack a well defended enemy planet or fleet?
In my opinion this vessel is used 90% of the time just to deploy the starbase 
so the
"exception" would be its combat abilities.

For the Akira again in 80% of the playthrough I had I used them exclusively to 
attack
upgraded starbases in early game and they were keeping auto-joining fleets left 
and
right and after that they went ista-killing themselves against the local 
starbase
(due to the auto-attack which brings them at close distance) without even using 
the
quantum torpedoes.
However yes since it can be also used in combat effectively and in this case it 
would
be probably in larger numbers, I can understand if #1 and #3 are dropped.

Original comment by gianmari...@gmail.com on 11 Jan 2010 at 7:05

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Oh I mistaken the ability name anyway..it's not quantum torp it's something 
else I
can't remember right now however I'm sure you got it :)

Original comment by gianmari...@gmail.com on 11 Jan 2010 at 7:08

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That's simply an issue of balance, then.  Personally, I don't use a fleet of any
single ship, but that's just because I go for flavor over game mechanics.  
Obviously
some ships are more economical in terms of their power versus their cost.  I'm 
not
involved in the balancing act at the moment, but I'm assuming these things will 
all
be fine-tuned so that all ships (cruisers/capitals, at least) have some useful 
combat
role.

I guess we'll see. 

Original comment by aaron...@hotmail.com on 11 Jan 2010 at 9:16

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I can see removing the auto-join fleet for both the Norway and the Shelly Class,
because they can wind up jumping into a battle with your main fleet and getting 
blown
up when what you actually wanted was to send them in after the area was secure 
to
colonize and build a starbase.  The Akira, though, is quite all-purpose and 
should
auto-join fleets IMO.

I'm agnostic about autocast for the neutron torpedoes (the station killing 
ability).
 First, if anyone intends to take it off autocast, they should confirm the AI is
still smart enough to use it - you spent a lot of time making the AI work well 
and it
would be a shame to kill that.  Personally, I find the best way to use it is to 
take
it off autocast, warp in, target the space station (just right click for normal
attack), and then turn auto-cast on.  It seems that when I try to have a group 
of
them selected, hit the spell (manually) and target the station, only one ship 
casts
it.  Only by giving them the target and letting them decide when to shoot can I 
get
the whole fleet to fire. 

Original comment by thomas.s...@gmail.com on 11 Jan 2010 at 11:16

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My points on this is that the Norway class is, at the present time, planned to 
be a
combat vessel in addition to it's starbase construction duties.  There's no 
need to
"save it till the end of the battle" because it has sufficient hull and shield 
points
and is equipped with numerous forward-mounted weapons.  It's essentially a 
destroyer,
very unlike the constructors you're used to.  

You just happen to get starbase construction as an added bonus.  :)

Original comment by aaron...@hotmail.com on 12 Jan 2010 at 1:15

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I think that it would be a bad move to give special units like starbase 
constructors
and antimodule ships a combat role, honestly. This could also be abused, when a
player is using the assault with starbase strategy he would be facilitated from 
the
norway having high hitpoints/armor/shield to successfully reach the place of
deployment in an enemy gravity well under attack during a battle, and if one 
gets
destroyed there would be another one from the..say..10 or 20 he brought there, 
not
much fair since he could micro them in different places within the gravity well 
and
deploy them as the previous get blown up, increasing the chances to build a 
working
starbase during the assault.
That's why stock SB constructors are relatively fragile, I suppose, and don't 
fight.
Same for antimodule ships, I think they should be relatively fragile (not 
comparable
to a ship designed to withstand a ship-to-ship battle).
I'd even suggest to make it just antimodule for its semplicity of use.

Original comment by gianmari...@gmail.com on 12 Jan 2010 at 2:44

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You bring up an excellent point about the starbase constructor.  There are 
several
paths to prohibit misuse of the ability that we can experiment with, though:

1)  Increase the build time of starbases.  This makes it much more vulnerable to
enemy fire, which means it can be destroyed more easily before fully 
constructed.

2)  Increase the build costs of starbases (I support this option in general).  
The
most expensive ship is in the 6500 range, I believe.  Shouldn't a starbase be 
more
than this?  No less than 10,000, shall we say?  Why spend that much money 
spamming a
bunch of constructors/bases only to have them blown to pieces before they're 
built?

3) Obviously this option doesn't stop players from doing anything, but the AI 
can be
set to only use an ability when not in battle.  

I don't want to step on any toes here, but it seems a bit like you're trying to 
fit
every ship and structure into the conventional roles in standard sins.  I could 
be
wrong (and someone correct me if I am), but I believe one of the goals of this
project, being a total conversion, is to give the game a totally different 
feel.  The
Akira class, for instance, is not meant to feel like your standard anti-module 
ship.
 It's a freaking heavy cruiser designed to fight the borg, for goodness' sake!  Plus
it's an awesome design.  Why would anybody want to relegate such a ship to a 
purely
anti-module role?  Yes, it does have that label.  Yes, it does have an 
anti-module
ability, but that's because it's primary weapon focus is torpedoes.  It just 
fits,
which is why it got that role instead of the Intrepid.  

The Centaur class, on the other hand, is in the anti-fighter slot, but in no 
way is
that ship designed or equipped to take out fighter craft more efficiently than 
any
other unit available to the feds.  Same goes for the Excelsior in the 
long-range slot.

I *think* that once we're finally finished with the mod (heaven help us!) that 
each
faction will play 100% differently than any of the others.  The Feds will be all
about utility and well-rounded abilities but lack the offensive power of the 
Klingons
or Romulans.  The Romulans will focus on stealth tactics, mining, and large, 
powerful
starships.  The Klingons will be like the blunt axe of the group, swinging and 
not
particularly caring who gets in the way or how much damage they do.  I see the
Dominion as more of a swarm, building ships at an incredible rate and depending
numbers over superior firepower and defenses.  And the Borg, well, what can you
really say about the Borg?  They're a force of nature.  

Hopefully (and I say this because I don't know that unit costs and such have 
been
discussed yet), stats, costs, balance of abilities, and other related things 
will not
be symmetrical across the board.  A D'deridex, for example, should probably 
costs
around twice what a Galaxy does, and should have, in general, higher stats than 
most
other vessels.  It'll definitely make it harder to balance, but I believe in 
the long
run it will make for a much more immersive mod with even better replay value.   

Just my 2 cents worth on the direction the mod is headed in (though I often come
across as making it seem more like a dollar or two, for which I apologize).  

Original comment by aaron...@hotmail.com on 12 Jan 2010 at 6:45

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Well..if it's all about the model and the Akira class lore then change the 
model...
I didn't said the Akira have to be the antimoduleship.
It's going to require a bit more of unwanted micro on this
antimodule-but-still-a-battleship ship, which goes just fine for me eh? I'll 
adapt...

Original comment by gianmari...@gmail.com on 12 Jan 2010 at 8:38

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A couple thoughts:

1--> Ultimately, Major Stress and JTaylor should probably make these calls 
since they
have the most sweat equity in the mod.

2--> Putting the Akira in the antimodule slot doesn't take away from the 
ability of
both human and AI players using it in general combat.  Even the AI builds them 
and
fights with them, though slightly more reluctantly.  

3--> One of the crowning achievements of this update to the mod (as opposed to 
the
last) is the fact that by assigning (all) role slots, the AI is able to play 
well. 
Very well, actually, and it would be a shame to throw that away.  If we just 
start
sticking ships in redundant roles to have more ship classes, that will probably
happen.  If you look at the infocard descriptions, Aaron, you will note that 
each
states the role, but some also state (For AI Functionality Only).  That's part 
of
working around the hardcoding issues, and it's wonderful what the team has done.

4--> Regarding the Norway Class, I have to say that unless you make it more 
badass
than another cruiser, nobody will use it for anything else but a constructor 
(esp.
not the AI), and that's fine, IMO.  We have to bend our ideal version of this 
mod a
little to make it work with the Sins engine and still allow it to be fun, 
playable,
and have the AI work.  I think having a "dedicated" station builder is part of 
the
price we'll have to pay if that's what we want.

5--> Talk to JTaylor and Stress on the topic of whether large cap ships like the
D'Deridex and Dominion battleship should be balanced as similar to, say, 
Sovereign
Class, or drastically larger and more costly.  If you make them "bigger," you 
also
have to scrap the "free cap ship" at the beginning of the game (SOGE managed to 
do
that, so it's possible).  Since this is a fundamental gameplay and balance 
issue, I
think those two should decide.  I'd love to have them bigger, but I wouldn't 
want
that if it winds up skewing the game in one faction's favor or the other.  I 
think it
probably would, because as anyone who played against me in the earlier releases 
can
attest, I will uber-spam a solid cap ship and roll across the board.  That's 
not fun
for other people who want to play as, say, the Fed or Klingons.

Original comment by thomas.s...@gmail.com on 13 Jan 2010 at 12:23

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All valid points that need to be taken into consideration at some point.  
Regarding
point 3, I am well aware of ship roles and what their descriptions say 
considering I
typed them out.  Maybe I was just unclear, but it seems like you and I are on 
the
same page with this point.  I'm totally up for the ship roles being functional 
only
in terms of AI stability.  That's why I said who cares if the Akira is a stout
cruiser in the anti-module slot.  

Interesting argument on point 5 as well; however, the Borg will be balanced on 
a 4 to
1 scale with ships of a similar class, so I see no reason to not continue that
pattern with other races.  We'll have to see how it works out, but I definitely 
think
it's worth a shot.  

Original comment by aaron...@hotmail.com on 13 Jan 2010 at 5:02

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Aaron,

I had no idea you were the one who balanced out the ship roles and AI, since I 
just
started helping out with this beta test.  Very good work, I must say; we're all 
in
your debt.

Regarding my final point, I don't know that the borg blow a hole in it.  
Presumably
the borg mega-ships (cap ships especially) will have such an ungodly high supply
count that you won't be able to build more than, say, 4 of them (if that).  
However,
even if I double the Sovereign Class's 75 supply count and make the supply 
count 150
(for a Rom D'Veridex or Dominion Devastator battleships), I can still crank out 
over
a dozen each (more realistically a D'Veridex would prolly be about 120, at which
point you could still build all 16 cap ships).  With balancing as it is now, the
capital ships are a much more effective use of supply points than cruisers (if 
you
can afford the $$$ to up the cap ship crews), so a fleet of a full 2000 supply 
and
all cap ships will probably kick the tar out of a 2000 supply fleet with 1200 
in cap
ships and 800 in cruisers (that's 16 Sovereigns and 40 Steamrunners).  In that
situation, my money is on the 16 D'Veridexs (provided they get a firepower/HP/SP
boost in line with their supply boost).

So to sum it up, it will still hose the guy without the big cap ships if those 
big
cap ships get their due, even with the borg in play.  Unless you underpower the 
big
ships, that is, but then it stinks to play as them.  I don't see much of a way 
out of
this, to tell you the truth, unless the cap ship supply numbers are set to keep 
you
from being able to build all of your cap ships for both the Romulans and 
Dominion
(prolly increases even the Fed cap ships to about 100 and the big Rom/Dom ships 
to
close to 200).

Original comment by thomas.s...@gmail.com on 13 Jan 2010 at 11:53

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I don't want to take credit from someone else.  I've had a hand in some of the
role-type placements, but most of that was already done.  I have, however, 
typed out
descriptions for all Federation/Dominion ships/researches.  From that I'm aware 
of
where each ship is slotted and what it is *actually* meant to do in the mod, as
opposed to what the roletype was originally intended to do.

Anyhow, once I finish up with the Tactical Cube model, Romulan strings, and HUD
icons, I'm going to play around with balancing stats, costs, and fleet points 
on my
own copy of the mod to see what I can come up with.  As you said, it's going to 
be a
huge headache trying to balance out all the numbers.

Original comment by aaron...@hotmail.com on 14 Jan 2010 at 1:11

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not a issue atm balance related will be addressed after release

Original comment by jtaylor...@gmail.com on 22 Jan 2010 at 8:19

• Changed state: WontFix