Concept List

[LinguList]

Robbeets et al claim to use Leipzig-Jakarta, Heggarty, and Swadesh, but I find the following concepts not matching in Concepticon:

1 CHIN
2 CHEEK
3 DEEP
4 HOLE
5 LICK
6 ABOVE
7 GRASP
8 TALL
9 BRANCH
10 EDGE
11 NASAL MUCUS (SNOT)
12 WARM
13 SPIN
14 OPEN
15 BRAIN
16 None
17 FIREWOOD
18 SWALLOW
19 FINGERNAIL
20 GROW
21 WEAVE
22 FOREHEAD
23 PUS
24 ASK (REQUEST)
25 PUT ON
26 WHICH
27 BEAT
28 BREAK (CLEAVE)
29 JUMP
30 LIE DOWN
31 LOOK FOR
32 OLD (USED)
33 SHOULDER
34 SOUR
35 SOFT
36 LOOK
37 SMELL
38 CHEW
39 COVER
40 MOUNTAIN OR HILL
41 THROAT
42 RIPE
43 BOTTOM
44 FOAM
45 FIND
46 TEAR (SHRED)
47 RISE (MOVE UPWARDS)
48 REMAIN
49 MONTH
50 RAW
51 TOMORROW
52 COUGH

There may be problems, also in our mapping (mountain or hill qualifies as mountain), which I can refine, but there are quite a few concepts which don't make sense in a concept list, like foam, month, old (used) or edge. Can any of the experts tell me if these are typical etymologies in Altaic? I could also -- of course -- just check if there are cognates for those, or what happens if we reduce them.

[LinguList]

Note that None means: unmapped, so this concept is not relevant.

[rgyalrong]

The fun thing is that precisely "foam" and "edge" are among the 50 cognate sets attested in more than three families:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpT5wLCh2IBhtiVjaGwX8RqehB91-0ZGXeEcFgSoRQg/edit#gid=1878793180

It is thus possible that the list has been tailored to include concepts with known potential cognates...

Le mer. 8 déc. 2021 à 20:15, Johann-Mattis List @.***> a écrit :

Robbeets et al claim to use Leipzig-Jakarta, Heggarty, and Swadesh, but I find the following concepts not matching in Concepticon:

1 CHIN 2 CHEEK 3 DEEP 4 HOLE 5 LICK 6 ABOVE 7 GRASP 8 TALL 9 BRANCH 10 EDGE 11 NASAL MUCUS (SNOT) 12 WARM 13 SPIN 14 OPEN 15 BRAIN 16 None 17 FIREWOOD 18 SWALLOW 19 FINGERNAIL 20 GROW 21 WEAVE 22 FOREHEAD 23 PUS 24 ASK (REQUEST) 25 PUT ON 26 WHICH 27 BEAT 28 BREAK (CLEAVE) 29 JUMP 30 LIE DOWN 31 LOOK FOR 32 OLD (USED) 33 SHOULDER 34 SOUR 35 SOFT 36 LOOK 37 SMELL 38 CHEW 39 COVER 40 MOUNTAIN OR HILL 41 THROAT 42 RIPE 43 BOTTOM 44 FOAM 45 FIND 46 TEAR (SHRED) 47 RISE (MOVE UPWARDS) 48 REMAIN 49 MONTH 50 RAW 51 TOMORROW 52 COUGH

There may be problems, also in our mapping (mountain or hill qualifies as mountain), which I can refine, but there are quite a few concepts which don't make sense in a concept list, like foam, month, old (used) or edge. Can any of the experts tell me if these are typical etymologies in Altaic? I could also -- of course -- just check if there are cognates for those, or what happens if we reduce them.

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[LinguList]

Good. This would contradict the authors' statement that they use the borrowing-resistant lists only. I think it is okay to use family-specific lists, but claiming for borrowing-resistance is something else.

So I will dig along this direction and make a full comparison of the concepts.

[LinguList]

I looked into the concepts, but they are described in Savelyev and Robbeets 2020, where they claim that 200 items are from the Leipzig-Jakarta list, which is indirectly true, but sloppily done. However, since all scholars worked sloppily with concepts and did their own sub-versions of Leipzig-Jakarta by looking at the WOLD database, it is not worth pursuing this further here. Anyway, good to have looked into this, as the claim that they use Leipzig-Jakarta was always strange to me, now I know they used teh WOLD data to derive their own 200 item list from there, calling it Leipzig-Jakarta (which has only 100 items!).