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liberapay / liberapay.com

Source code of the recurrent donations platform Liberapay
https://liberapay.com/
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SEPA Direct Debits #1233

Closed Changaco closed 5 years ago

Changaco commented 5 years ago

Stripe has enabled SEPA Direct Debits on our account, we need to finish the implementation on our side.

Changaco commented 5 years ago

I've made some progress on the technical side of this today, but it'll be a while before we're ready to go live, because we need to get our own SEPA creditor identifier first (see Stripe's documentation).

Changaco commented 5 years ago

I've sent a message to our bank (Crédit Mutuel) asking if they can get us a SEPA creditor identifier.

MathiasRenner commented 5 years ago

@Changaco Do you plan working on a SEPA debit method without Stripe? Is there a need to use stripe instead of pure SEPA processes? To me, I don't know why I need stripe since SEPA works for itself, doesn't it? Thanks for your comments!

Changaco commented 5 years ago

Stripe is very much needed, Liberapay is way too small to interface directly with low-level payment systems like the ones that process SEPA Direct Debits, and Stripe does much more than those.

Changaco commented 5 years ago

Regarding my previous comment: the conversation with the bank went nowhere, they want me to go see them at their office and they don't care that I'm 300km away from it at the moment. I'll be back in that region in two weeks.

Kaligule commented 5 years ago

@Changaco Thanks for keeping us updated. Sepa is the only viable option of money transfer for me, so I am watching this very carefully.

Changaco commented 5 years ago

Sorry it's taking so long, I know SEPA Direct Debits are particularly important to German users because many of them simply don't own a card.

Kaligule commented 5 years ago

@Changaco Nothing to be sorry about, thank you for your great work.

MathiasRenner commented 5 years ago

I openened a new issue for following the discussion about Stripe and privacy concerns: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/1268

Changaco commented 5 years ago

I've just returned from an appointment at the bank. I have to send them some documents via email so that they can forward our request to the central bank. After that we have to wait for a response, which could take a few weeks.

Edit: I've sent the documents to the bank.

Changaco commented 5 years ago

Just received an email from the bank: we finally have our SEPA creditor identifier! :man_dancing: :tada:

I'll get to work on finishing the technical implementation as soon as possible.

trebmuh commented 5 years ago

Nice!

Changaco commented 5 years ago

After some back and forth with Stripe's support we're now finally able to process SEPA Direct Debits!

Screenshot of the Stripe Dashboard showing "SEPA Direct Debit" as "Live"

Final step: merge and deploy #1337.

trebmuh commented 5 years ago

\o/

Changaco commented 5 years ago

SEPA Direct Debits should be operational now.

trebmuh commented 5 years ago

Would that be related to the fact that I received today an email from stripe asking for a scan or photograph of a government-issued photo ID?

IzzySoft commented 5 years ago

And does this still need a Stripe account (on the receiving end)?

mattbk commented 5 years ago

@IzzySoft, yes: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/blob/09fa92915f4c5c4bf1e44d2d8ab450f3d6c850fd/www/%25username/giving/pay/%25payment_id.spt#L113.

IzzySoft commented 5 years ago

@mattbk thanks, I was afraid so. I need to think that over. Still don't understand why withdrawing needs a "man in the middle" for SEPA, especially as that's no micro-payment anymore (at least not if you'd set a limit for this). But then, it's not my area of proficiency.

davidak commented 5 years ago

Stripe is very much needed, Liberapay is way too small to interface directly with low-level payment systems like the ones that process SEPA Direct Debits, and Stripe does much more than those.

@Changaco what would be needed to solve this?

For example mein-grundeinkommen.de started quiet small and is now quiet big. I setup recurring direct debit (SEPA) in my profile and can change the amount at any time. I think they don't use a special payment provider, just a bank. I could ask how they do that technically.

Also, would it help to ask other organizations like FSF, FSFE, Software Freedom Conservancy, The Document Foundation, that have experience with collecting donations for help?

Changaco commented 5 years ago

@davidak The organizations you mentioned all collect money for themselves, they're not payment processors like Liberapay and consequently they don't have to follow financial regulations.

davidak commented 5 years ago

mein-grundeinkommen.de works like a lottery and choose a random person that receives a universal basic income for one year. But i think that's also a different case than donations. But it shows that the technical side can be done, even by a small team.

@Changaco Is the main problem the regulation? Do you have an idea how big we must become that it makes sense to support SEPA directly? Do you plan doing it then?

The mentioned organizations have a big network and contact to lawyers. They might be able to help find a solution.

mattbk commented 5 years ago

Somewhere a number of a few hundred thousand EUR was tossed around as what would be needed to get a money transmission license in order to act more like a bank.

Changaco commented 5 years ago

@davidak Liberapay will probably never support SEPA "directly". In the past we supported it through Mangopay, now we support it through Stripe. Because Stripe only supports a relatively small number of countries we may add another payment processor in the future, but it's not a priority for me right now.

@mattbk €350k was only the amount of capital needed to be allowed to apply for a license, not the total amount needed to obtain that license.

Changaco commented 5 years ago

Those of you who don't understand why we need Stripe may want to read this: PSD2: Implications for marketplaces and platforms.