adjust dkong palette to match observed rgb values from fbneo

[timcannell]

This modification brings the palette used in dkong exactly in line with that of FBNeo which is considered to be correct. The main change in appearance is that the platforms along which the barrels roll and Mario climbs now have a deep pink colour as oppose to red.

[barbudreadmon]

As already mentioned in your topic on retropie's forum, this is not a good idea, some users are using this core because they have a preference for the bad reddish colors.

You should implement it as something that can be toggled.

[timcannell]

Really ?! Emulation isn't about accommodating unusual preferences that are at odds with the what's being emulated. I would have thought that is self explanatory.

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, 13:44 barbudreadmon, @.***> wrote:

As already mentioned in your topic on retropie's forum, this is not a good idea, some users are using this core because they have a preference for the bad reddish colors.

You should implement it as something that can be toggled.

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[barbudreadmon]

Emulation isn't about accommodating unusual preferences

You are totally mistaken about that, and in the first place the purpose of this core is to be a snapshot of mame back in 2003.

For the reminder, there is half a dozen of cores that are already able to emulate the correct colors, and mame2003-plus is a far better candidate for any kind of backporting. Yet again, there is no real problem implementing this here if you make it an option.

[Wilstorm]

@barbudreadmon - I hear what you’re saying and respect your opinion but this seems really out of character for you. It’s a color change, for the better. He’s making the core more accurate on his own time and none of the core guys have an issue. It seem like a win-win for m3plus. You’re the only pushing folks over to FBNeo or other cores. I just don’t know what to add to that, it’s a patch for the better and I guess if people start raining down complaints in mass then it could be rolled back easy enough. I have to say I like it!! :)

[timcannell]

I disagree and dont think I'm mistaken at all.

Let's be clear, we are not talking about accommodating a new controller, a discrete hardware sound which cannot easily be emulated, or something which facilitates access to the game on a different platform.

We are talking about a fundamental misrepresentation on screen - the screen is perfectly capable of displaying an accurate colour.

So no, I'm not totally mistaken. But yes mame2003-plus is also a good candidate for a fix.

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, 14:20 barbudreadmon, @.***> wrote:

Emulation isn't about accommodating unusual preferences

You are totally mistaken about that, and in the first place the purpose of this core is to be a snapshot of mame back in 2003.

For the reminder, there is half a dozen of cores that are already able to emulate the correct colors, and mame2003-plus is a far better candidate for any kind of backporting.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-libretro/pull/501#issuecomment-1346591756, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADOG4WESIQZS4K7CYJDXN5LWM4YBPANCNFSM6AAAAAAS3WWL6Y . You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: @.***>

[barbudreadmon]

It seem like a win-win for m3plus.

Indeed, as i said, but here is not the m3plus repo.

So no, I'm not totally mistaken.

You are totally mistaken about emulation not having to accommodate unusual preferences, most emulators have settings causing games to have a different behavior from real hardware. I myself was requested to unfix things in FBNeo for one reason or another, and ended up turning the previous behavior into togglable setting.

I see no valid reason to totally suppress one of the only cores still able to emulate the bad colors, not when some users are using it because of this, not when it could be implemented as a togglable setting.

[timcannell]

But I'm not 'totally mistaken' about the bad colors issue here... your argument is hard take seriously.

[Wilstorm]

Indeed, as i said, but here is not the m3plus repo

Ooops...my bad, thanks, I follow both cores and missed that! ;-) @timcannell - This is a sister core. A really short history is this core is mostly static. Some of the RetroPie devs complained about changes to this core so it was decided to leave it static and mame2003-plus was born.

Mame2003-plus has many changes, modern additions and some partial "rewrites" or code changes like Midway games, etc. etc. I would add it to that core. It's basically everything mame2003 is PLUS more. :) If folks want the original colors than mame2003 is a perfect snapshot for that.

Here's the mame2003-plus repo if you want to add it there. I think it's a great addition and thanks for sharing and offering it for others to use!

https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro

[Wilstorm]

That being said I still think it doesn't change the ROM set and doesn't break anything so it could be added here too if the core devs wanted it.

[timcannell]

Thanks will do 👍

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, 15:55 Wilstorm, @.***> wrote:

Indeed, as i said, but here is not the m3plus repo

Ooops...my bad, thanks, I follow both cores and missed that! ;-) @timcannell https://github.com/timcannell - This is a sister core. A really short history is this core is mostly static. Some of the RetroPie devs complained about changes to this core so it was decided to leave it static and mame2003-plus was born.

Mame2003-plus has many changes, modern additions and some partial "rewrites" or code changes like Midway games, etc. etc. I would add it to that core. It's basically everything mame2003 is PLUS more. :) If folks want the original colors than mame2003 is a perfect snapshot for that.

Here's the mame2003-plus repo if you want to add it there. I think it's a great addition and thanks for sharing and offering it for others to use!

https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro

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[timcannell]

I'll leave it with you guys😉

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, 15:57 Wilstorm, @.***> wrote:

That being said I still think it doesn't change the ROM set and doesn't break anything so it could be added here too if the core devs wanted it.

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[MistyDreams]

@timcannell the argument about keeping the wrong colours is quite bizarre and mame2000 will still have the wrong colours if someone is seeking them lol, fbneo doesnt even have a toggle dont know why he is requesting it here when his core doesnt have it. I have some positive input the fbNeoVals[] data isint in the pull request nothing major. I dont like seeing new contributors like yourself been treated so poorly with seemingly insane demands.

[timcannell]

Just to give some context as to my motivation, my Retropie system only needs to emulate a few dozen or so games nearly all pre ~1985. Mame 2003 was and is fine for my needs with the exception of this colour issue ;-).

Not everyone is chasing the curve and I hoped there are others out there who would benefit from such a fix.

[MistyDreams]

Its just needless drama and demands you did well on fixing it. Its up to them now if they want it or not. I dont see any point in debating it. It works right for you now (and is accurate) at the end of the day and you shared the wealth.

[timcannell]

Missing semi-colon committed

[barbudreadmon]

fbneo doesnt even have a toggle

FBNeo is not meant to be a 20 years old frozen-in-time snapshot of an emulator, and we only implement those "revert toggle" by request.

yourself been treated so poorly

No one was treated poorly, except maybe the users with unusual preferences. I explained why this is a bad idea with sound arguments.

[timcannell]

fbneo doesnt even have a toggle

FBNeo is not meant to be a 20 years old frozen-in-time snapshot of an emulator, and we only implement those "revert toggle" by request.

yourself been treated so poorly

No one was treated poorly, except maybe the users with unusual preferences. I explained why this is a bad idea with sound arguments.

I don't think they are sound at all !!

[MistyDreams]

I explained why this is a bad idea with sound arguments.

lol there has been improvements in this core such as

https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-libretro/commit/7c7e8469bbffb1dc978acc32aadf08cde725ecb3 https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-libretro/commit/3bc17f46ba4aecf3c5683b7535630935aba7ba9c https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-libretro/commit/71cf959fce72e3f512224436f509e89c2ae697a0

do we revert them all? I dont know if your having a bad day or something the important thing about the frozen is the romset remains the same. I cant say you have a sound argument on this subject by and means imho we can agree to disagree.

[barbudreadmon]

@timcannell Well, i don't understand your reluctance about adding this as a togglable setting, but ok, disregard the first sentence of this repo's readme, and disregard the users with unusual preferences. It's not really my problem, and i trust @mahoneyt944 will deal with this properly anyway.

[Wilstorm]

@barbudreadmon - I've always considered you knowledge and suggestions very sound (I still do). I think FBNeo is a fantastic core by all accounts. I'm trying to be objective as I can but I just don't quite understand why the particular stance on this update. Especially a toggle feels a bit over the top but kind of a cool idea for the nostalgic.

I've heard you ask on the RP forums once why would anyone want to use mame2003-plus Donkey Kong when FBNeo has accurate colors. Now mame2003-plus can have those same accurate colors. Ding!? Wouldn't that be a great reason to support your fellow core. Some of the comments through the years on the RP forums you seem to steer folks away from mame2003-plus. To me this and FBNeo are the two best cores for low spec hardware so I support both and use both.

Tim is offering the share the work and information for the betterment of all. He's not fighting the core devs to add it. He's just saying hey guys I fixed up the colors for myself but if you all want to drop it into your core, I'll share the patch. I can't help to think it's awfully kind of him.

I would be in total agreement to add it to the ever changing progressive sister (mame2003-plus) and leave mame2003 as the snapshot core if someone prefers the inaccurate colors.

If you calculate it out the ROM sets are probably about 97-98% identical so it should work perfectly for those folks who want the inaccurate. I would also think the folks that slant toward no changes would have no interest in the new additions anyway to mame2003-plus.

In a nutshell the RetroPie devs complained about all the changes (and occasional breaks), with growth comes growing pains right, but they decided to roll back the whole core after months of changes. They wanted it static with no changes to the ROM set. In the end, the fundamental structural changes being added to mame2003-plus, Grant decided to port over to mame2003 for all to benefit. Which was a perfect compromise. The core ROM set that is everywhere for that version is still viable but you have to do some hunting if you want to run the newer mame2003-plus.

Anyway to sum it up, then Mark, Arcadez & Grant spun up mame2003-plus and started really hammering out thousands of changes into the new core. Then later KMFDManic brought some great contemporary OST changes too, as well as, many other folks adding in small changes here and there (like this). I don't know the logistics of implementing the patch but overall this just feels like a win-win update.

I always thought mame2003-plus was a spin-off core that was designed for exactly these kind of changes!

[mahoneyt944]

There is an issue open about this in 2003+ https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro/issues/1494

[Wilstorm]

If you really sum it up mame2003-plus is a fork for exactly the reasons you're resisting/stating above! We don't need a fork of the fork? I think! ;-)

@mahoneyt944 - I know it isn't, I think maybe you, Arcadez and/or Misty need to decide if you want it. Hopefully Tim would be willing to move it over to 2003+. I'll leave it alone and thanks again Tim for doing the work on this, really it's great stuff! I'd support stuff like this anytime and Happy Holidays to you all! :)

[mahoneyt944]

If the consensus is to add it here. It doesn't bother me at all. It's just colors. Or if we want to add it to 2003+ only, either is fine.

[MistyDreams]

yeap happy holidays all

@mahoneyt944 this is between you and barbudreadmon only he has issues with accurate colours in this core(so far). Its a slippery slope youll be adding core options for bad emulation to remain going forward with any changes. Its never been an issue in the past making improvements without changing roms(as i dont see core options to undo them all). Youll have a ton of core options with that stance.

[Wilstorm]

@mahoneyt944 @MistyDreams - I can't imagine anyone complaining about accurate color emulation. Maybe they would notice and inquire? But to ask for the wrong colors back after updating would seem a bit silly-ish. I'm not saying someone won't ask for it but if it's 1 out every 100 people that's a great..."for the most part"...and I can sleep with that at the end of the day. If you add it to 2003+ and leave 2003 then it's the best of both worlds for the niche but I wouldn't be against adding it to both either. I agree with Misty that to many core options, especially for just a color change, would get to be a bit much. Really though I think you guys have autonomy for the core(s) since you do all the updates and housekeeping.

[MistyDreams]

@Wilstorm I have nothing much to do with the cores @mahoneyt944 has the terrible job of dealing with others. I just hope tim doesn't get put off with all this.

[Wilstorm]

@mahoneyt944 - I whole hardheartedly agree!

There's certain games 2003+ has that FBNeo doesn't and vice versa. If this aligns them a little closer it sure feels like a step in the right direction.

[Wilstorm]

@MistyDreams ;-)

[Wilstorm]

I meant @MistyDreams comment above...I let the @ pull up the name list and pressed enter to soon on Mahoney...but either, or...both...it's all good! ;)

[barbudreadmon]

I always thought mame2003-plus was a spin-off core that was designed for exactly these kind of changes!

@Wilstorm me too, and if backports are also being made to those mame snapshots now then i'd recommend updating the readmes accordingly and maybe adding some kind a changelog for those backports.

[MistyDreams]

if backports are also being made to those mame snapshots now then i'd recommend updating the readmes accordingly

It would be nice if fbneo had update notes as well. It just something plus and mame upstream seems to do.

Sound development options from the plus team on that par!. You should consider doing these things yourself on fbeo if you think its a big issue here. Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

@Wilstorm its all good improvements are always welcome as far as im concerned cores are easily switchable in RA so its not like its a competition.

[mahoneyt944]

@barbudreadmon I think you're over reacting here. These are just colors. Technically in mame2003 these colors weren't considered wrong at that time, so when you changed the drivers to reflect "imperfect colors" that wasn't honoring the snapshot either.