input mapping discussion: phase 1

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

I'd like to consolidate this conversation in an open thread, with the right title, in this repository. Right now it's excitingly sparking up in several places. In addition to being able to talk about individual PRs there might need to be an Issue to capture any overall discussion about the input mapping reverts that are going on.

The first phase of the plan is to revert the input hacks that were put in mame2003 "way back in the day" that only addressed specific input scenarios.

Then we will have three input modes, each with a clean MAME slate:

retropad which only sends input via the retropad abstraction. In other words, if you are using a keyboard and you're in RetroArch, right Shift inserts a coin. If you are using a joypad, Select inserts a coin.
mame_keyboard which sends keyboard input directly to the MAME keyboard interface. By default a RetroPad will do nothing in this mode, although starting with RetroArch 1.7.2 you can remap a button to a key so you still might be able to make your joypad work this way. It might be very counter-intuitive and not recommended to set up your input this way though. To be tested.
simultaneous renders input from both interfaces at the same time, which results in double-inputs when the retropad is mapped to something that also has a mame_keyboard binding. this is the way that mame2003 has worked for a long time, so it does work this way and has worked well for lots of people.

The plan is to look at current MAME for any updates that would affect the default maps in the mame_keyboard interface, as well as to look at how MAME maps to joypads for ways to improve the default mappings via retropad

I think this will be great!

Do I have the concept right? @dankcushions @grant2258 @Wilstorm

ghost commented 6 years ago

I wanted this changed a while to the way twinaphix done it this can be fixed in retropie no need to change it back a simple ln in install script will fix it

just cd to the mame dir and do a sudo ln -s mame2003_plus_libretro.so mame2003-plus_libretro.so

or add it to the build script either way works

Wilstorm commented 6 years ago

I was just trying to update from source a few minutes ago after updating RetroPie and received this error:

Linking mame2003_plus_libretro.so...
platform unix
cc -fPIC -shared -Wl,--version-script=link.T -o mame2003_plus_libretro.so src/mame2003/mame2003.o src/mame2003/video.o src/artwork.o src/common.o src/config.o src/cpuexec.o src/cpuint.o src/cpuintrf.o src/datafile.o src/drawgfx.o src/fileio.o src/harddisk.o src/hash.o src/hiscore.o src/info.o src/inptport.o src/input.o src/mame-memory.o src/mame.o src/mamedbg.o src/mame_unzip.o src/palette.o src/png.o src/profiler.o src/sndintrf.o src/state.o src/tilemap.o src/timer.o src/ui_text.o src/usrintrf.o src/window.o src/x86drc.o src/machine/6522via.o src/machine/6532riot.o src/machine/6821pia.o src/machine/74123.o src/machine/74148.o src/machine/74153.o src/machine/7474.o src/machine/8255ppi.o src/machine/eeprom.o src/machine/idectrl.o src/machine/mathbox.o src/machine/mb87078.o src/machine/random.o src/machine/ticket.o src/machine/tmp68301.o src/machine/z80fmly.o src/sound/filter.o src/sound/mixer.o src/sound/streams.o src/sound/votrax.o src/sound/wavwrite.o src/vidhrdw/avgdvg_vidhrdw.o 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src/cpu/pic16c5x/pic16c5x.o src/cpu/g65816/g65816.o src/cpu/g65816/g65816o0.o src/cpu/g65816/g65816o1.o src/cpu/g65816/g65816o2.o src/cpu/g65816/g65816o3.o src/cpu/g65816/g65816o4.o src/cpu/g65816/g65816ds.o src/cpu/spc700/spc700.o src/cpu/spc700/spc700ds.o src/cpu/e132xs/e132xs.o src/sound/samples.o src/sound/dac.o src/sound/discrete.o src/sound/2203intf.o src/sound/2151intf.o src/sound/ym2151.o src/sound/2608intf.o src/sound/2610intf.o src/sound/2612intf.o src/sound/ay8910.o src/sound/fm.o src/sound/2413intf.o src/sound/ym2413.o src/sound/ymz280b.o src/sound/3812intf.o src/sound/fmopl.o src/sound/ymdeltat.o src/sound/sn76477.o src/sound/sn76496.o src/sound/pokey.o src/sound/tiasound.o src/sound/tiaintf.o src/sound/nes_apu.o src/sound/astrocde_snd.o src/sound/namco.o src/sound/namcona.o src/sound/tms36xx.o src/sound/tms5110.o src/sound/5110intf.o src/sound/tms5220.o src/sound/5220intf.o src/sound/vlm5030.o src/sound/adpcm.o src/sound/msm5205.o src/sound/msm5232.o src/sound/upd7759.o src/sound/hc55516.o src/sound/k005289.o src/sound/k007232.o src/sound/k051649.o src/sound/k053260.o src/sound/k054539.o src/sound/segapcm.o src/sound/rf5c68.o src/sound/cem3394.o src/sound/c140.o src/sound/qsound.o src/sound/saa1099.o src/sound/iremga20.o src/sound/es5506.o src/sound/bsmt2000.o src/sound/ymf262.o src/sound/262intf.o src/sound/ymf278b.o src/sound/gaelco_snd.o src/sound/x1_010.o src/sound/multipcm.o src/sound/c6280.o src/sound/sp0250.o src/sound/scsp.o src/sound/psx.o src/sound/ymf271.o src/sound/ics2115.o src/libretro-common/formats/libchdr/chd.o src/libretro-common/formats/libchdr/libchdr_sha1.o src/libretro-common/utils/sha1.o src/libretro-common/compat/compat_posix_string.o src/libretro-common/compat/compat_snprintf.o src/libretro-common/compat/compat_strcasestr.o src/libretro-common/compat/compat_strl.o src/libretro-common/compat/fopen_utf8.o src/libretro-common/encodings/encoding_utf.o src/libretro-common/file/file_path.o src/libretro-common/streams/file_stream.o src/libretro-common/string/stdstring.o src/libretro-common/utils/md5.o src/libretro-common/vfs/vfs_implementation.o src/libretro-common/zlib/adler32.o src/libretro-common/zlib/compress.o src/libretro-common/zlib/crc32.o src/libretro-common/zlib/deflate.o src/libretro-common/zlib/gzclose.o src/libretro-common/zlib/gzlib.o src/libretro-common/zlib/gzread.o src/libretro-common/zlib/gzwrite.o src/libretro-common/zlib/inffast.o src/libretro-common/zlib/inflate.o src/libretro-common/zlib/inftrees.o src/libretro-common/zlib/ioapi.o src/libretro-common/zlib/trees.o src/libretro-common/zlib/uncompr.o src/libretro-common/zlib/unzip.o src/libretro-common/zlib/zutil.o  -lm
Removing additional swap
/home/pi
Could not successfully build lr-mame2003-plus - Arcade emu - updated MAME 0.78 port for libretro with added game support (/home/pi/RetroPie-Setup/tmp/build/lr-mame2003-plus/mame2003-plus_libretro.so not found).

Log ended at: Wed Apr 25 16:21:42 CDT 2018
Total running time: 0 hours, 19 mins, 49 secs

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

@Wilstorm same issue. you either need the corrected build .sh or you can make the temporary change the makefile. i'll upload my build later, if it's working.

ghost commented 6 years ago

@Wilstorm how are you building mame through retropiesetup ?

Wilstorm commented 6 years ago

@dankcushions - Ok, will wait and thanks.

Wilstorm commented 6 years ago

@grant2258 - I am using the menu options in RetroPie setup.

ghost commented 6 years ago

can i suggest something that will save you time for building new commits so you dont have to rebuild all the source all the time ?

Wilstorm commented 6 years ago

can i suggest something that will save you time for building new commits so you dont have to rebuild the source all the time ?

Absolutely! ;)

ghost commented 6 years ago

this part below you just need to do once ill add the fix for you to compile

cd /home/pi/RetroPie-Setup/ sudo ./retropie_packages.sh lr-mame2003-plus sources cd tmp/build/lr-mame2003-plus/ ln -s mame2003_plus_libretro.so mame2003-plus_libretro.so

for here on in we just build as normal cd /home/pi/RetroPie-Setup/ sudo ./retropie_packages.sh lr-mame2003-plus build sudo ./retropie_packages.sh lr-mame2003-plus install sudo ./retropie_packages.sh lr-mame2003-plus configure

you need to checkout @dankcushions pullreq yourself if you want to test it

next time we do an update all you do is cd /home/pi/RetroPie-Setup/tmp/build/lr-mame2003-plus/ sudo git pull cd /home/pi/RetroPie-Setup/ sudo ./retropie_packages.sh lr-mame2003-plus build sudo ./retropie_packages.sh lr-mame2003-plus install sudo ./retropie_packages.sh lr-mame2003-plus configure

and it will only have to compile the files that have changed

Wilstorm commented 6 years ago

@grant2258 - Each time would take 20 minutes or so. I would start and do some other things for a while. This is great and thank you.

ghost commented 6 years ago

@Wilstorm no problems at all :)

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

tested my PR - the PR works, but i mis-mapped the my table in my head - the retropad sf2 layout is now kinda screwey. if you imagine a snes pad, this is how it works by default now:

    MK                        HK

      UP                    LK
LEFT     RIGHT          HP      MP
     DOWN                   LP

...which isn't a layout anyone would want; all the punches on the face buttons, the kicks across shoulders and one face button.

i wonder how best to go forward? we should definitely keep the driver and keyboard mappings as per regular mame (so keyboard users get normal mame layouts) but for pad users: 1) do nothing - retropad users have to remap sf2/other 8 button fighters manually either via retroarch or TAB. 2) map the retropad globally to a better sf2 layout (but risk causing other games to have screwy layouts) 3) map the retropad to a better sf2 layout ONLY if cps1/2 (bit hacky) 4) something else?

i probably prefer 3).

ghost commented 6 years ago

a core option map sf2 and clones to snes pad true or false

if the user wants to use defaults (me on a arcade stick) or anyone else on a gamepad is covered and other games arent messed up. We are on 2 at the moment.

ghost commented 6 years ago

this makes no difference to me either way for now anyway ill have to assign my buttons once in mame for player one and two and im done. There is no reason this isint correct behavior all arcade pannels are setup different. My issue was changing driver input mappings

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

arcade panels will typically be keyboard devices so will be bypassing retropad entirely with mame_keyboard, so aren't a factor here.

the issue is getting retropad users (the vast majority using this core) with a sensible default layout, or not.

My issue was changing driver input mappings

sure, and you've fixed that and that is good - no need to change them.

ghost commented 6 years ago

@dankcushions no true my arcade pannel isint keyboard input it is an issue not all encoders are keyboard. The setup issue wont matter when you remap in mame with the one off anyway so you can decide on layout that works for yourselfs.

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

right, well if your arcade panel is a joystick device, you have to bind it to the retropad abstraction to use any retroarch core (or use an autoconfig), and typically a 8 button layout would map as this

Y X R1 L1
B A R2 L2

or (rarely)

Y X L1 L2
B A R1 R2

either way, the defaults won't be sensible here.

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

X arcade is about to start offering their arcade controls with a joypad interface as well

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:34 PM grant2258 notifications@github.com wrote:

@dankcushions https://github.com/dankcushions no true my arcade pannel isint keyboard input it is an issue

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro/issues/143#issuecomment-384454979, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ASphdvdPGm0sMN41aFMfH33UGO_fQLnMks5tsPnXgaJpZM4Tjvwm .

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

At any rate I agree you have to do custom mapping at some point. Can't cover all scenarios here

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:38 PM Mark W. Kidd mark@stardart.net wrote:

X arcade is about to start offering their arcade controls with a joypad interface as well

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:34 PM grant2258 notifications@github.com wrote:

@dankcushions https://github.com/dankcushions no true my arcade pannel isint keyboard input it is an issue

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro/issues/143#issuecomment-384454979, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ASphdvdPGm0sMN41aFMfH33UGO_fQLnMks5tsPnXgaJpZM4Tjvwm .

ghost commented 6 years ago

@dankcushions (joystick) arcade controllers are easily fixed in the mame tab menu to work as they should its a non issue. its how i currently do it

Wilstorm commented 6 years ago

There's several games that have to be remapped regardless. I know pinball games I move to the right/left should or right/left trigger. It's just works better. Games like toobin' that have a left/right forward and left/right backward. I have a bunch of games that seem more sensible with custom mappings over the defaults.

Correct me here if I am wrong but I look at layouts like this below as a physical layout because a keyboard value still needs to be assigned to each Retropad "button" which kind of makes it a mute point on what keys are assigned unless you're actually using a keyboard for input then having say key A="keyboard a" and B="keyboard p" is a long stretch across the keyboard.

Y X L
B A R

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

@dankcushions (joystick) arcade controllers are easily fixed in the mame tab menu to work as they should its a non issue. it how i currently do it

but that's fundamentally something retroarch is supposed to stop you needing to do (where possible). that's what we're talking about in this issue. if you're remapping manually regardless, you have no concern what defaults we decide on.

this is the power of retroarch - it lets the core decide on how it maps to a virtual retropad controller, and then it ensures the user gets that mapped to their physical controller.

ghost commented 6 years ago

Well we would need a joystick_arcade_pannel a retropad and keyboard_arcade_pannel to cover that. I still say people on arcade pannels like me will just have to map in mame because the buttons numbers could be physically mapped differently. Just need documented on the wiki how to setup a joystick arcade pannel in mame2003

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

Well we would need a joystick_arcade_pannel a retropad and keyboard_arcade_pannel to cover that.

keyboard arcade users use mame_keyboard which skips the retropad stuff entirely.

joystick arcade panel and retropad should be the same layout. like i said, you buy a fightstick, or any 8 button stick it will have this retropad layout:

Y X R1 L1
B A R2 L2

this is the exact same layout that is sensible for a gamepad also (everything since SFIV has used this layout). this is the one FBA uses and i think the closest we have to a retroarch standard.

the only one i could see being worth adding as a core option is a legacy mode for 6 button contollers (snes, some hori sticks i think):

Y X R1
B A L1

ghost commented 6 years ago

@dankcushions im pretty easy on the standard you want to set. I personally dont mind i know if i dont like it i just set it up on mame or any other emulator I know how to change it. I will only know after testing tbh if you want input on it.

personally user

x y l1 r1 a b l2 r2

when setting up on retropie for snes and such

and mame is configurable anyway

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

a random google of a madcatz fightstick. remember that in the retropad paradigm, A (right)=circle, B (bottom)=cross, Y (left)=square, X (top)=triangle, so that stick would appear as a retropad layout of

Y X R1 L1
B A R2 L2

and that's exactly what the autoconfigs do: https://github.com/libretro/retroarch-joypad-autoconfig/blob/master/udev/Mad%20Catz%20FightPad%20PRO%20PS4.cfg#L31

that's where i'm coming from.

ghost commented 6 years ago

I dont know of any games that use more than 6 buttons but i can tell you this my mame button numbers if it helps

cps1 1 2 3 4 5 6

neogeo 1 2 3 4

so my setup goes 4 5 6 1 2 3 4

to cover neogeo and cps1

ghost commented 6 years ago

thats just my personal preference you cant please everyone stick with the fba standard for consistency with the cores. I know my setup isint the usual one people use. I just like to stay as close to the arcade cabinets as possible as a result i accept that its me that has to do the panel setup in mame

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

Is it fair to summarize that no one is proposing any changes to mame_keyboard mappings at this point?

If so, I think we should have a 'phase 2' issue which is discussing specific proposals to change the current default mapping for retropad.

dankcushions commented 6 years ago

i think your layout is perfect! ingenious the way it copes with neogeo and capcom. now, if we mapped the retropad to that layout for the ‘standard’ retropad fightstick/modern controller layout, i think it would work well.

i’ll update the pr tomorrow and draw up some diagrams

ghost commented 6 years ago

@markwkidd i dont see any reason to break peoples keyboard encoder setups by changing this unless there is any conflicts with retroarch itself

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

@grant2258 that's how I feel too. I agree we should keep an eye out for conflicts.

The main action is going to be in retropad from here on I think!

ghost commented 6 years ago

@markwkidd im pretty clear how i stand on this if i was using a controller. There should be at least 4 remap setups depending on the number of buttons.

1) 6 buttons sf2 setup 2) 2 player setup (this handles 1 and 2 button games) ( make sure the jump and shoot set up nicely) 3) 3 player setup (test with double dragon 2 to get it right) pow ect 4) neogeo setup (4button)

this should be a core option to do this else use a best possible default setup and people can customize mame themselves as remaps wold be funky with mame remapping thoughts?

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

Do we really need four different core options for this, or could we code it into mame2003-plus to make those settings by default based on the game/driver?

ghost commented 6 years ago

we can get the button count no problem the problems arise when your remap in mame and a differnt map is used for the emiting

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

I think I have an answer for the remap issue. It will be easier for me to explain as a commit though

ghost commented 6 years ago

mark no no i mean a core option to automatically map or not if this is set to true it will map per button else use a global default ie people can set mame up themselves

ghost commented 6 years ago

it just an idea for the table all ideas are welcome

ghost commented 6 years ago

@Wilstorm any thoughts?

Wilstorm commented 6 years ago

Well we would need a joystick_arcade_pannel a retropad and keyboard_arcade_pannel to cover that. I still say people on arcade pannels like me will just have to map in mame because the buttons numbers could be physically mapped differently

That's what I keep thinking Grant what you said above. You never know what is going to be assigned to each button (is it a keyboard, PCB, IPAC, dedicated encoder, etc. in your panel) so you change the Retorarch defaults to match your arcade panel A, B, etc. or IPAC users can also change the input sent from the button to match Retroarch A, B, etc. depending on the physical layout chosen, either way works. Right now my "Retropad A" equals "ctrl" because of where it's physically located but whatever value is fine because Retroarch will pass it to the core.

What is wrong with @dankcushions "random" setup above? I am kind of getting lost in all of this. To me "Retropad A" is nothing more than a 'variable or input string' because it doesn't have a value...yet. It's like for coding purposes or something. Not sure of the words I am looking for here. It's just a base to work out of so I can either:

A) Assign "Retropad A" a value that equals my physical button input. Like during setup.

or

B) Change "RetroPad A" to a value that equals my physical button output sent to Retroarch. Physical placement.

When I go through the RetroPie setup it asks what do I want to assign to "RetroPad A". I don't care what the value is that comes from my button press. I press the button on the panel because I decided beforehand in the design phase how to lay out my panel physically. Whatever value is sent from that button is it.

Retroarch defaults are just something to use when on the keyboard so they have some starting value.

I designed my panel around the MAME defaults so out of the box nothing needed to be changed....in MAME. Then I did some minor core overrides so my panel works for console layouts so I could get B A for NES or Y X (top row) B A (bottom row) for SNES to the right physical location because the values are already assigned due to the IPAC defaults but really the values are arbitrary to me until you tell me where is this button physically located.

If your doing a NEO GEO 4 button layout maybe it will be slightly different. Now you don't have Y X above B A but they are in a line.

Joysticks are different because a majority have the same layout and easy to plan a default setup that should be reasonable for most users.

It's all kind of confusing but the layout to me is nothing more than a loose physical layout for coding because I can assign whatever value I want to the to Retropad A to match my physical button location or vice versa. So whatever layout seems fine really or something like that, confusing.

ghost commented 6 years ago

@Wilstorm its hard to explain this in a easy but it is simple it probably my explanation of it.

mame has different inputs keyboard and joystick (it actually has more dont want to complicate this though)

if input is keyboard we use mame defaults nothing changed there with keyboard mode

retropad we need to decide where Retropad buttons map to in mame ie button number

(joystick) arcade pad we need to decide where buttons are going to if we do this setup

but we need a default config to work from to get the others to bind to it

markwkidd commented 6 years ago

Github can get unwieldy for long, ongoing conversations and this one is action-packed. I'm closing this issue in favor of a clean slate for the planning and action that happens next. Here's the new issue: https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro/issues/146

libretro / mame2003-plus-libretro

input mapping discussion: phase 1 #143