Nerfs bullet damage on the Syndicate Revolver

Enbyy commented 1 year ago

About The Pull Request

Changes the bullet damage on .357 rounds to 45 brute from 60 brute. This means: 3 shots to crit on unarmored/lightly armored targets (previously 2 shots) 4 shots to crit on heavily armored targets (previously 3 shots)

Why It's Good For The Game

The syndicate revolver is too strong. Making the ammo craftable instead of just printable is barely a nerf, at least not an effective one. Most players did not know you could print rounds. Making rounds harder to make is a knowledge check that was barely interacted with to begin with, and large amounts of ammo was not the issue the revolver has.

Changing the damage to 45 makes all kills take 1 more bullet on average. This change makes the ttk slightly longer, but allows the revolver to stay easy to use, forgiving, and an overall good option for new players at it's tc cost while making it slightly less strong at just murdering you without any counter play. This makes it a lot harder for you to be instantly deleted by a revolver, but does not make the ttk too long (it's still faster and easier to kill with than a markov)

Fighting a player with a revolver can be very frustrating, especially if you're unarmored. It feels very at odds with the way we expect combat to go on our server and the way we play the game to have a gun that can near instantly delete someone from existence. This change makes playing against the revolver slightly more forgiving, allowing players a extra second or two to react to the revolver.

Changelog

:cl: nerf: Changes .357 damage from 60 to 45 /:cl:

Jacquerel commented 1 year ago

I do not like this change. I am happy with the Revolver being "spend most of your TC in order to delete a small handful of people". I think it is good that it provides a "low skill" option which does not have much answer and makes traitors difficult to approach, because I think they should be difficult to approach even if the person playing as them is not particularly "skilled".

Ultimately I think it being "unfair" that a traitor can buy a weapon which can turn any engagement in their favour is totally fine. I wouldn't object to the ammo being uncraftable on those grounds, but we've not really spent much time testing out the alternate change instead.

Enbyy commented 1 year ago

I do not like this change. I am happy with the Revolver being "spend most of your TC in order to delete a small handful of people". I think it is good that it provides a "low skill" option which does not have much answer and makes traitors difficult to approach, because I think they should be difficult to approach even if the person playing as them is not particularly "skilled".

Ultimately I think it being "unfair" that a traitor can buy a weapon which can turn any engagement in their favour is totally fine. I wouldn't object to the ammo being uncraftable on those grounds, but we've not really spent much time testing out the alternate change instead.

It's still a "low skill" option with these changes, it's just not instantly deleteing you from existence.

SansSarif commented 1 year ago

I'm going to agree pretty thoroughly with Jacq. It's really hard to argue from the vacuum of "well it only takes one more shot," when multiple players on our own server have attested to the fact that they rely on the fact that the ability of the syndie-revolver to two-tap most targets to overcome their own inability to click effectively, whether it be due to lag or just lack of confidence.

In addition, this change has knock-on effects:

it significantly decreases the slowdown from being shot, and potentially removes it outright for characters wearing armor.
it significantly decreases the wounding chances and the severity of such wounds
it makes the makarov significantly more appealing with no benefit to the antag. the makarov can: print ammo for it at the autolathe, has multiple different ammo types you can purchase, it can be suppressed, it can be stored in the pocket, it is cheaper by 6 tc.

It's really easy to look at something like "the raw damage is 60" and see that as too powerful, but that excises so very much of the actual questions going on in any round. the current 60 damage means that it takes 3 shots to down a bartender if all 3 shots land on the chest. The current 60 damage means it takes 3 shots to down a security officer wearing a helmet. if a sec officer is wearing a helmet & armor, or a bartender is wearing a helmet & a borrowed armor from security, "one fully-loaded revolver can kill 3 people with an extra shot" becomes factually incorrect. With damage dropped down to 40, you cannot guarantee that you will kill even 1 player if they're wearing armor.

This is not a good change. If you're having problems with getting got by antags with revolvers, I can only recommend that you put on armored headwear. The intention of the gun as designed is that you should have minimal space to "counterplay" it if you let yourself get caught out by it. It's sole redeeming factor is that it does enough damage to put down someone in two shots. Any other gun would be more useful than it without that.

Enbyy commented 1 year ago

I'm going to agree pretty thoroughly with Jacq. It's really hard to argue from the vacuum of "well it only takes one more shot," when multiple players on our own server have attested to the fact that they rely on the fact that the ability of the syndie-revolver to two-tap most targets to overcome their own inability to click effectively, whether it be due to lag or just lack of confidence.

In addition, this change has knock-on effects:
* it significantly decreases the slowdown from being shot, and potentially removes it outright for characters wearing armor.

* it significantly decreases the wounding chances and the severity of such wounds

* it makes the makarov significantly more appealing with no benefit to the antag. the makarov can: print ammo for it at the autolathe, has multiple different ammo types you can purchase, it can be suppressed, it can be stored in the pocket, it is cheaper by 6 tc.
It's really easy to look at something like "the raw damage is 60" and see that as too powerful, but that excises so very much of the actual questions going on in any round. the current 60 damage means that it takes 3 shots to down a bartender if all 3 shots land on the chest. The current 60 damage means it takes 3 shots to down a security officer wearing a helmet. if a sec officer is wearing a helmet & armor, or a bartender is wearing a helmet & a borrowed armor from security, "one fully-loaded revolver can kill 3 people with an extra shot" becomes factually incorrect. With damage dropped down to 40, you cannot guarantee that you will kill even 1 player if they're wearing armor.

This is not a good change. If you're having problems with getting got by antags with revolvers, I can only recommend that you put on armored headwear. The intention of the gun as designed is that you should have minimal space to "counterplay" it if you let yourself get caught out by it. It's sole redeeming factor is that it does enough damage to put down someone in two shots. Any other gun would be more useful than it without that.

half of this is just wrong but i can't be fucked to argue with you on a 2 day old pr that has already been talked about in the discord so i'm just going to fucking close it.

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