Blackened

[Kelmych]

Blackened (http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods/18173) Blackened FWE + MMM + Project Beauty.esp CRC: D8BB74F2 ITM:2 Bash Tags: Scripts, Relev, Names, Actors.ACBS, Actors.Stats, Invent Mart's Mutant Mod - DC Interiors.esp Bash Tags: Relations

This is only a portion of the plugins for this mod, but these are all I am currently using.

[Kelmych]

Revised and expanded version of input

name: Blackened FWE + MMM + Project Beauty.esp
after:
  - name: UUF3P - FWE Patch.esp
req:
  - name: FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp
tag:
  - Actors.Stats
  - Factions
  - Invent
  - Names
  - Relev
  - Scripts
dirty:
  - crc: 0xD8BB74F2
    util: FO3Edit 3.0.32
    itm: 2

name: Blackened FWE + MMM + EVE + Project Beauty.esp
after:
  - name: UUF3P - FWE Patch.esp
req:
  - name: FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp
tag:
  - Actors.Stats
  - Factions
  - Invent
  - Names
  - Relev
  - Scripts

name: Mart's Mutant Mod - DC Interiors.esp
tag:
  - Relations

[Freso]

I've put ```s around the first block. Consider the difference between that and the following two mod blocks - and then consider using this in your other entries. :)

[Kelmych]

OK. I''ll try that. By the way, there is one addition that both of these need: "after:

• name: FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp"

This needs to be added.

I'm not sure I know exactly where to put the "s . When I paste the metadata in Notepad++ it comes out correctly, but when I paste it here it has a different format.

[Freso]

You need to use three "back apostrophes" (grave accents), not regular double (") or single (') quotes. :)

Check https://guides.github.com/features/mastering-markdown/ for a reference, particularly the "Code" bit under the Examples.

[Freso]

About this:

after:
  - name: UUF3P - FWE Patch.esp
req:
  - name: FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp

Are these files masters of the .esp(s) in question? If so, they don't need to be specified in the masterlist. LOOT is intelligent enough (as opposed to BOSS) to place mods after their masters and also show errors if a mod's masters aren't present.

[Kelmych]

You asked about the reasons for using LOOT metadata for controlling load order, and this demonstrates 2 of the 3 situations I used. First, some mods (e.g., MMM, FWE) separate their changes into an ESM and one or more ESPs. The ESPs are needed to add some changes that would be added too early (and then potentially overwritten by another mod) in an ESM. The only official master is the ESM, especially here where the FWE ESPs do different things. Compatibility mods (e.g., Blackened, UUF3P - FWE) need to also load after the mod(s) that are effectively their masters. In this case these compatibility mods include FWE so FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp is required since they were designed to change some records that are in this FWE ESP plugin (as well as records in the FWE ESM). So how did I know that this was the only FWE ESP that needed to be a requirement - I had to look at the changes that these two mods made and the various FWE ESPs made and see if there were any important conflicts.

Second, ordering of compatibility mods. The big compatibility mods generally should load later so the large set of changes they make aren't undone by the changes from a small compatibility mod. In this case UUF3P - FWE and the Blackened plugin are both compatibility plugins. UUF3P - FWE only makes a small set of changes to FWE records for balance between FWE and UUF3P. The Blackened plugin makes many changes based on balancing a larger set of mods. With a few well chosen Bash tags the UUF3P - FWE plugin can load sooner and still have its important changes survive. It would be very difficult without some manual patches and too many bash tags to have the much larger Blackened plugin load before UUF3P - FWE and have the important changes it makes win.

The third case, by the way, is for small mods that change just a few record types and large mods that affect the overall objects that include these records. If the large mod loads early then then large set of changes it makes can be negated by the small mods if they load later since they have either blanks in the rest of the object or use the Fallout3.esm defaults. Bash tags can be added to the small mods so the specific few changes they make will end up in the bashed patch since these particular records or subrecords are not changed by the large mod that loads later. The mods that I set to load before FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp are examples of this. They each make changes to only a few record/subrecords in the object they are editing.

It would be interesting to see how LOOT algorithms try to automatically detect these behaviors. I don't think it is at all easy for the three cases I just mentioned.

[Freso]

I know of all those reasons (I'm not new to Bethesda-Gamebryo modding :)), I'm asking for the specific reason for each individual case so that I can be sure I'm not adding a req or an after containing something that's already included as a master in the mod's own header.

[Kelmych]

Do you mean you want examples of the specific records/subrecords that would otherwise not get loaded properly? In making the determination I used each option (original LOOT ordering and revised ordering), made a bashed patch, and looked at the result in FO3Edit with particular attention on conflicting records in any leveled list/NPC, FormID list, weapons, armors, clothing, and NPCs, etc.I did this twice, once for each option.

[Freso]

That would be brilliant. :) But just saying "ThatMod isn't a master of ThisMod, but ThisMod is designed to override a few records from ThatMod all the same." or something to that effect would be quite sufficient. I don't have FO3Edit or an FO3 install on the machine I'm doing editing on, so when I haven't booted into Windows on the other machine, I'm mostly working "in the blind" - ie., I can't double check myself. So what I mostly want is just a/the reasoning for why after should be "forced" in the individual cases (e.g., sometimes, it might be better to set priority, or sometimes after is actually an inc, and then there are the times where the after really is a user preference that LOOT should not change, etc.).

[Kelmych]

Deciding whether to have this load after UUF3P - FWE Patch.esp can be a little difficult. Advantages If Blackened is loaded later:

• some MMM faction and AI Template records get properly loaded in the bashed patch
• some armor repair lists are controlled by this vs. UUF3P in the bashed patch
• this wins some weapon INAM records vs. UUF3P in the bashed patch

Advantages if UUF3P is unconstrained and loads later:

• weapon clips sizes, fixed in UUF3P, are used in the bashed patch

Overall I prefer having Blackened later, but it isn't a slam dunk. The UUF3P - FWE isn't concerned with MMM, so some of what it does is inconsistent with having MMM in the load order. Both do a reasonable job with FWE records. The other issue, not uncommon with LOOT, is that there are always some side effects of the because the choice affects the order of some other mods which might cause conflicts. I saw this also with BoS Outcast V3 loading after both of these when I used the Blackened-later load order.Of course, as soon as I add another mod to the load order it might not load after these two!

[Kelmych]

I looked at whether UUF3P - FWE Patch.esp and/or Blackened FWE + MMM + Project Beauty.esp actually need to load after FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp and whether they should have the FWE plugin as an "req" based on changes that are made. Based on this I suggest that UUF3P - FWE Patch.esp should have FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp as a req, but Blackened doesn't actually change objects that FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp modifies.