Handling FCOM installations

WilliamImm commented 11 years ago

As it turns out, the big combination overhaul that was responsible for BOSS's existence in the first place would pose a challenge for the new version of BOSS. The main reason is, Mart's Monster Mod and Frans have a very different load order with FCOM and without FCOM - with the flexible load order system BOSSv3 uses, this can be a problem to implement. There's also a ton of conditional messages relating to that overhaul.

I have converted all messages that rely on FCOM Convergence.esm to use FCOMCond instead, so if any new messages need to be added, please use that condition. However, there does need to be a way to handle the varying load order FCOM uses.

This should be handled while in the process of converting the Oblivion masterlist, and would be a prerequisite for issue #1.

Ortham commented 11 years ago

There shouldn't be much of a problem implementing this, though it's not obvious in the masterlist due to lots of other plugins being present. All that needs to be done is for the relevant plugins' after fields to list FCOM-conditional plugins.

I've got a clean Oblivion install, so I could go through the motions of setting FCOM up on it again and see what metadata is necessary.

WilliamImm commented 11 years ago

...and I may do the same too. I was going to set up a Oblivion install to examine RefScope (so that a Skyrim conversion of it can be made).

Ortham commented 11 years ago

I've started looking into this by going through the list of plugins that are FCOM-conditional in the v2 masterlist, to try and figure out what they actually have to load after.

One thing I'm wondering is whether there's any point in trying to add the correct load order metadata for plugins that are already marked as obsolete? So many FCOM-related plugins are, and it seems like a bit of a waste of time to me. In any case, I'll include them in my findings below.

So far, I've found that the following plugins don't actually need any FCOM conditions, because in v2 they're just separated by a bunch of unrelated plugins.

Fran Armor Add-on.esp
Fran_Lv30Item_Maltz.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests-SI only.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests-SI-only.esp
Francesco's Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp
Francescos Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp
FranDarkSeducerWeapFix.esp
FranSeducerScriptFix.esp

FCOM_Convergence.esp, FCOM_ConvergenceNoFran.esp and FCOM_OscurosOverhaul.esp should all load after the following:

Mart's Monster Mod for FCOM.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Fran's Leveled Quests.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp

As for the billion or so MMM optional plugins, they should all load after the three FCOM plugins above, for sure. Also note that their load order in BOSS doesn't match what's given in the MMM readme. I'll need to look in TES4Edit though to see how much is actually conflicting between things, which I haven't done yet.

Freso commented 10 years ago

Any update on this?

Ortham commented 10 years ago

There hasn't been a lot of LOOT feedback from Oblivion users (activity dropped quite a bit soon after Skyrim was released). It's to be expected: new mod release rates will have slowed dramatically in recent years, and so BOSS covers most users' needs fine.

MacSplody commented 5 years ago

Basic FCOM Setup Files

Just to get an idea of how to set this up for LOOT. I've outlined the bare minimum for an FCOM setup. It may need some corrections, below is what I have so far.

Recommended but not required

Oblivion Script Extender (OBSE) Unofficial Patches Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch Unofficial Oblivion DLC Patches

FCOM Convergence

Required Install Files

FCOM_Convergence.7z

Required Game Files

FCOM_Convergence.esm FCOM_Convergence.bsa FCOM_Convergence.esp

Optional Install Files

FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.7z FCOM Optional Add-Ons.7z FCOM RealSwords Resources.7z

FCOMBob's Armory Oblivion Opti.7z Bob's Armory Oblivion.7z

WarCryEv.7z Oblivion WarCry EV Opti.7z

Optional Game Files

FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp FCOM_Francescos.esp FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp FCOM_Knights.esp FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.esp or FCOM_EntropicOrderHardcore.esp FCOM_SpawnRatesReduced.esp or FCOM_SpawnRatesSlightlyReduced.esp or FCOM_SpawnRatesStronger.esp FCOM_RealSwords.esp (Requires: FCOM RealSwords Resources.7z) FCOM_WarCry.esp (Requires: Oblivion WarCry EV.esp, Oblivion WarCry EV.bsa) FCOM_BobsArmory.esp (Requires: Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp, Bob's Armory Oblivion.bsa)

Francescos Creatures and Items - V5

Francescos Creatures and Items - V5B1 Francescos Creatures and Items - V5B2 Update

Required

Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp

Optional

Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm, Requires: FCOM add-on FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp(for the SI version) Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp(for the SI version)

OOO - Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul - Updated

Required Install Files

Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul BSA OOO esps

Required

Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.bsa Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp

Martigen's Monster Mod 3.8

Required Install Files

MMM 3.8 MMM 3.8 BSA MMM ReadMe and Version History

Required Game Files

Mart's Monster Mod.esm Mart's Monster Mod.bsa (Rename FCOM_Convergence_Mart's Monster Mod.bsa)

Optional Game Files

Mart's Monster Mod – More Wilderness Life No Gates.esp Mart's Monster Mod – Extra Wounding.esp Mart's Monster Mod – Hunting & Crafting.esp Mart's Monster Mod – Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp Mart's Monster Mod – Diverse Creatures Expansion.esp Mart's Monster Mod – Diverse WaterLife.esp Mart's Monster Mod – Mummies.esp Mart's Monster Mod – RadiantAITweaks.esp Mart's Monster Mod – Shivering Isles.esp

Incompatible With FCOM

Mart's Monster Mod.esp

Use with vanilla. Includes Adventurers and pretty much everything else! If you are not using another overhaul like OOO, Frans, FCOM then you should be using this.

Mart's Monster Mod - Durability & Damage.esp

Durability & Damage: Increases weapon damage by 50%, weapon skill based damage by 50% and armor and weapon durability by 100% to help fights go faster and armor last longer with the default increase in spawns. (Do not use with OOO (FCOM) as it already contains this tweak/plugin.)

Mart's Monster Mod - Knights.esp

Mart's Monster Mod - Knights: This ESP plugin corrects compatibility problems between Knights of Nine and MMM. It allows many of MMM’s natural creatures to work well with KO9, and fixes difficulties encountered with the faction changes that take place when wearing the armor. Players must have Knights of The Nine installed. See Knights Section below. Do not use with OOO or FCOM.

Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esp

Mart's Monster Mod for OOO: This release integrates the OOO loot for MMM NPCs, removes MMM guards so OOO guards take priority, and cross-pollinates MMM and OOO factions so like creatures behave correctly (i.e., OOO wolves and MMM wolves belong to the same faction). Players using Martigen’s Monster Mod with Oscuro’s Oblivion Overhaul need to use this instead of Mart’s Monster Mod.esp. (Not for use with FCOM!)

Load Order Guides

Basic

FCOM Basic Load-Order

Simplified FCOM Configuration for Beta 9.9 or Later

Last Updated 11/03/2008

There are way too many possible configurations for FCOM to detail them all, but the following guide should help with suggestions for some of the most common questions.

The following load order suggestions work for both SI and non-SI installs.

This page details the Basic Load Order for simplified FCOM configurations. It does not include all of the optional plugins. If you want a more advanced configuration, see the FCOM Expanded Load Order instead.

You can automatically force the correct load-order for these plugins (and many more) by using the excellent BOSS (Better Oblivion Sorting Software). This tool was previously called FCOMhelper, but it now works for any load order, not just FCOM.
Basic Load-Order

Do not use any other Fran optional plugins (except the ones listed here).

[x] Oblivion.esm
[x] Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
[x] Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm (Optional! Requires Fran BSA file & FCOM_FrancescoItemsAddOn)
[x] Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm (Must be 1.34 or later!)
[x] Mart's Monster Mod.esm (Must be 3.6 or later!)
[x] FCOM_Convergence.esm (Required!)
[x] Francesco's optional chance of stronger bosses.esp
[x] Francesco's optional chance of stronger enemies.esp
[x] Francesco's optional chance of more enemies.esp
[x] Francesco's optional leveled guards.esp
[X] FCOM_Francescos.esp (Required ONLY if using Fran's!)
[X] FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp (Required ONLY if using Fran's optional new items add-on.esm!)
[X] FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp (Recommended Optional)
[x] Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp (Optional)
[x] FCOM_BobsArmory.esp (Required ONLY if using Bob's Armory!)
[x] Oblivion WarCry EV.esp (Optional)
[x] FCOM_WarCry.esp (Required ONLY if using WarCry!)
[x] Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp (Must be 1.34 or later!)
[x] FCOM_Convergence.esp (Required if using MMM and OOO!)
[x] FCOM_RealSwords.esp (Recommended Optional)
[x] Bashed Patch, 0.esp (Use Wrye Bash to Rebuild Patch)
For more general load-order advice, check the Load Order Guide.
Bashed Patch

If you are using an old version of Wrye Bash (prior to 0.98), then check the Old Bash page for important details. If you have a recent version (v118 or later highly recommended), then everything you need to know is already described in the step-by-step Bashed Patch guide on the main FCOM homepage.

Expanded


FCOM Expanded Load Order

Advanced FCOM Configuration  for Beta 9.9 or Later

Last Updated 3/31/2009

There are way too many possible configurations for FCOM to detail them all, but the following guide should help with suggestions for some of the most common questions.

The following load order suggestions work for both SI and non-SI installs.

This page details the Expanded Load Order for advanced FCOM configurations, including all of the optional plugins. If you want a simpler configuration, use the FCOM Basic Load Order instead. 

You can automatically force the correct load-order for these plugins (and many more) by using the excellent BOSS (Better Oblivion Sorting Software). This tool was previously called FCOMhelper, but it now works for any load order, not just FCOM.
Expanded Load-Order

You should place the Fran optional plugins very early in your load order, as described below in the expanded load-order list. Files shown with [x] should be active. Files shown with [+] can be either active or "virtually active" (i.e., enabled only in the Bashed Patch). Files shown with [*] MUST be "virtually active" (i.e., "imported" into the Bashed Patch).

[x] Oblivion.esm
[x] Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
[x] Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm (Optional! Requires Fran BSA file & FCOM_FrancescoItemsAddOn)
[x] Tamrielic Ingredients.esm (With optional support patch included in FCOM 8.1 or later)
[x] Cobl Main.esm (Optional alternative to Tamrielic Ingredients; Not recommended with TI!)
[x] Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm (Must be 1.34 or later!)
[x] Mart's Monster Mod.esm (Must be 3.6 or later!)
[x] Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esm (Optional)
[x] TamrielTravellers.esm (Optional; requires TamrielTravelers4OOO.esp v1.3 and FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp)
[x] FCOM_Convergence.esm (Required!)
[*] TNR - all.esp (Tamriel NPCs Revamped should be "imported" in your Bashed Patch config, but should not actually be active)
[x] Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
[x] Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch MOBS.esp (install USIP & replace plugin with Fran-compat version of USIP 1.3)
[x] Francesco's optional chance of stronger bosses.esp
[x] Francesco's optional chance of stronger enemies.esp
[x] Francesco's optional chance of more enemies.esp
[x] Francesco's optional leveled guards.esp
[+] Francesco's Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp (Recommended Optional for SI; Download from SweetDanger)
[+] FCOM_Francescos.esp (Required ONLY if using Fran's!)
[+] FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp (Required ONLY if using Fran's optional new items add-on.esm!)
[X] FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp (Recommended Optional)
[X] Fran Armor Add-on.esp (Optional! Unofficial Fran expansion. Requires FCOM_UnofficialFranArmorAddOn!)
[X] Fran_Lv30Item_Maltz.esp (Optional! Unofficial Fran expansion. No patch required!)
[x] Other baseline plugins, including weather & sound mods, Official plugins, such as DLCSpellTomes.esp, etc. (except for Knights of the Nine, which should load later)
[x] UOMP, the Unofficial Official Mod Patches. (only if you have official plugins; UOMP for Knights.esp goes later)
[x] KDCircletsOOOOptimized - NPC Equip.esp (Optional. KDCircletsOOOOptimized. Requires patch.)
[x] FCOM_KDCircletsOOOOptimizedNPCEquip.esp (ONLY if using KDCircletsOOOOptimized - NPC Equip.esp!)
[x] ExnemRuneskulls.esp (Optional)
[x] FCOM_ExnemRuneskulls.esp (ONLY if using ExnemRuneSkulls!)
[x] Slof's Oblivion Robe Trader.esp (Optional)
[x] Tamrielic_Ingredients_cOMbo.esp (Optional)
[+] FCOM_TamrielicIngredients.esp (ONLY if using Tamrielic Ingredients!)
[x] Cobl Glue.esp (Optional; Required only if using Cobl; Not recommended with Tamrielic Ingredients!)
[x] Cobl Si.esp (Optional Shivering Isles support for Cobl; Not recommended with Tamrielic Ingredients!)
[x] OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp (Recommended optional support file for Cobl & Oscuro; Not recommended with TI!)
[+] FCOM_Cobl.esp (ONLY if using Cobl! Not recommended with FCOM_TamrielicIngredients!)
[x] Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp (Optional)
[x] FCOM_BobsArmory.esp (Required ONLY if using Bob's Armory!)
[x] Loth's Blunt Weapons for Npcs.esp (New! Optional)
[+] FCOM_LothsBluntWeapons.esp (New! Required ONLY if using Loth's Blunt Weapons!)
[x] Oblivion WarCry EV.esp (Optional)
[x] FCOM_WarCry.esp (Required ONLY if using WarCry!)
[x] Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp (Must be 1.34 or later!)
[x] Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp (Optional, but NOT RECOMMENDED)
[x] FCOM_Convergence.esp (Required if using MMM and OOO!)
[x] FCOM_RealSwords.esp (Recommended Optional)
[x/+] Any FCOM optional spawn adjustment plugins you want to use, such as the following:
[x] FCOM_DurabilityAndDamage.esp (Optional -- Use instead of MMM - Durability & Damage.esp!)
[x] Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp (Optional; FCOM_MoreWildernessLife is deprecated!)
[+] FCOM_SpawnRatesReduced.esp (Optional -- Use instead of MMM - Spawn Rates - Reduced.esp!)
[+] FCOM_SaferRoads.esp (Optional -- Use instead of MMM - Safer Roads.esp!)
[+] FCOM_LessRats.esp (Optional -- Use instead of MMM - Less Rats.esp!)
[+] FCOM_NoSpiders.esp (Optional -- Use instead of MMM - No Spiders.esp!)
[+] FCOM_NoWyverns.esp (Optional -- Use instead of MMM - No Wyverns.esp!)
[+] FCOM_NoReaversInGates.esp (Optional!)
[+] FCOM_NoAdventurersInGates.esp (Optional!)
[x/+] Any MMM optional plugins, such as the following:
[x] Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp (optional)
[x] Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp (optional)
[?] Mart's Monster Mod - Spawn Rates - Increased.esp* (NOT tested yet!)
[?] Mart's Monster Mod - No Reavers.esp* (Optional)
[x/+] Any additional MMM optional plugins you want to use should go here. You can use ALL of them EXCEPT the few that are specifically warned against in the "don't use" list or are replaced by FCOM_ versions.)
[x] TamrielTravelers4OOO.esp (with optional support patch included in FCOM 8.4 or later)
[+] FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp (ONLY if using Tamriel Travelers!)
[x/+] Any FCOM optional add-ons, such as MoreRandomSpawns, MoreRandomItems, etc. Examples:
[+] FCOM_FriendlierFactions.esp (Optional! Use instead of MMM - Friendlier Factions.esp)
[+] FCOM_DiverseGuardUnity.esp (Optional -- Use instead of Diverse Imperial Armor!)
[+] FCOM_BobsGuardUnity.esp (ONLY if using Bob's Armory and FCOM_DiverseGuardUnity.esp!)
[+] FCOM_Archery.esp (Optional)
[x] Quest plugins & override plugins, including:
[x] Knights.esp (Knights of the Nine official plugin needs to load after OOO)
[x] Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp (only if you have Knights.esp)
[x] Ruin.esp
[x] Mighty Umbra.esp
[x] Blood&Mud.esp
[x] Lost Paladins of the Divines.esp
[x] Origin of the Mages Guild.esp
[x] MannimarcoRevisited.esp
[x] MannimarcoRevisitedOOO.esp
[x] Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp (Optional! Needs to load late to prevent guards from falling off walls.)
[x/+] Any FCOM optional quest & NPC patches, such as the following:
[+] FCOM_MightyUmbra.esp (ONLY if using Mighty Umbra!)
[+] FCOM_Blood&Mud.esp (ONLY if using Blood & Mud!)
[+] FCOM_Knights.esp (ONLY if using Knights!)
[+] FCOM_Ruin.esp (ONLY if using Ruined Tail!)
[x] FCOM_SlofsRobeTrader.esp (Only if you use Slof's Oblivion Robe Trader!)
[x] FCOM_OMG.esp (Only if you use Origin of the Mages Guild!)
[x] FCOM_OMGSRT.esp (Only if you use OMGT and SRT!)
[+] FCOM_UnofficialFranArmorAddOn.esp (ONLY if using Unofficial Fran Armor Add-On!)
[x] Unique Landscapes mods (must load very late if you use them; be sure to use the MWL patch if you use MWL)
[x] Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esp (optional)
[x] FCOM_EnhancedDaedricInvasion.esp (Required ONLY if using Enhanced Daedric Invasion!)
[x] GFX_Initial_Glow-all.esp (beware of other, less-compatible no-glow mods)
[x] Beautiful People.esp, other beauty packs, etc.
[x] Bashed Patch, 0.esp (called "Bashed Lists, 0.esp" in older versions of Wrye Bash)

(*) Note that MMM plugins like Spawn Rates - Increased, Spawn Rates - Reduced, Spawn Rates - Moderate Increased, No Werewolves, No Slimes, No Beholdens, No Reavers, No Reaver Hounds, Extra Reavers, etc., can be used here. Load spawnrate changers before the "no" options! Also note that the names of these plugins changed in MMM 3.1 RC (previously they were called Increased Spawn Rate, Reduced Spawn Rate, etc.).

The MMM option files for No Carrion Rats, and No Undead Rise are not based on spawn list changes, so they will not show up in the Levelers list (and should not be specified as Relevelers in older versions of WryeBash).

For more general load-order advice, check the Load Order Guide.
Bashed Patch

If you are using an old version of Wrye Bash (prior to 0.98), then check the Old Bash page for important details. If you have a recent version (v118 or later highly recommended), then everything you need to know is already described in the step-by-step Bashed Patch guide on the main FCOM homepage.

Sources nUbee's Newbie Guide for FCOM Martigen's Monster Mod - README http://devnull.sweetdanger.net:80/fcomloadorder.html (On Web Archive)

MacSplody commented 4 years ago

Fcom_lessreaversingate.esp On the fcom webpage it is written: This option reduces the Reaver spawn counts in Gate realms only. Can be used with MMM - Less Reavers.esp to get a greater overall reduction in their spawn rate. Should this claim be investigated?
Fran_Lv30Item_Maltz.esp According to the extended guide, you don't need any patch. And actually it is confirmed even by the FCOM_optionaladdons, where the LV30_item maltz is mentioned having no need for a FCOM patch. But this plugin was released, It's not clear if it is actually needed.
Did anyone check the difference between more wilderness life.esp and more wilderness life no gates.esp? Because for More wilderness life.esp it is suggested cleaning, while it is not for more wilderness life no gates.esp. Note: is it sure that these plugins have to be cleaned? BOSS says ITM are intentional. Who checked they were not? Same can be said for: Mart's monster mod.esm, Mart's city defences.esp, Martigen shivering isles.esp.

_Originally posted by @Dredd893 in https://github.com/loot/oblivion/issues/111#issue-577469390

MacSplody commented 3 years ago

Did anyone check the difference between more wilderness life.esp and more wilderness life no gates.esp? Because for More wilderness life.esp it is suggested cleaning, while it is not for more wilderness life no gates.esp. Note: is it sure that these plugins have to be cleaned? BOSS says ITM are intentional. Who checked they were not? Same can be said for: Mart's monster mod.esm, Mart's city defences.esp, Martigen shivering isles.esp.

The ITMs in the More Wilderness Life plugins are mostly cells. The only ITM of note is 00064521, no other Frans, OOO or MMM plugin touch that record.

I don't think it's worth leaving them dirty, on the off chance that one record is overwritten.

Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp

One ITM, nothing else in the DLC, UOP, FCOM stack is touching that record.

The MMM Esm and SI ITMs block a change in Frans. Which is pointless as MMM doesn't use it directly and Frans replaces those leveled lists with its own.

MacSplody commented 3 years ago

Fcom_lessreaversingate.esp On the fcom webpage it is written: This option reduces the Reaver spawn counts in Gate realms only. Can be used with MMM - Less Reavers.esp to get a greater overall reduction in their spawn rate. Should this claim be investigated?

Yes, you can use either Mart's Monster Mod - Less Reavers.esp or Mart's Monster Mod - No Reavers.esp without issue as they modify different levelled creature lists to FCOM_NoReaversInGates.esp.

MacSplody commented 3 years ago

Invent tags may have to be disabled for Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm when using FCOM_Convergence.esp.

MacSplody commented 3 years ago

As for the billion or so MMM optional plugins, they should all load after the three FCOM plugins above, for sure. Also note that their load order in BOSS doesn't match what's given in the MMM readme. I'll need to look in TES4Edit though to see how much is actually conflicting between things, which I haven't done yet.

The load order was likely set that way in BOSS due to some MMM optional files being incorrectly tagged with Relev. MMM Safer roads had both Delev & Relev for example, but doesn't require either as it only modifies "chance none" values. Those tags are fixed now in #460

The MMM readme is incorrect in a few cases, at least from testing I've done so far. It places Safer roads before Spawn Modifying plugins, but it should be after so that its "chance none" values are copied to the bashed patch.

The main issue is the placement of Knights.esp in relation to the FCOM stack. There are some conflicts that aren't resolved correctly by a Bashed patch. if OOO, MMM & FCOM are after Knights.esp, even with their KotN patches. It's mainly faction changes in Creatures and NPCs, changes being blocked depending on plugin order. If a bashed patch could handle Faction changes better, the order would be less of an issue. There are also a few placed object and path grid conflicts as well. Whether it would be easier to move Frans, OOO, MMM & FCOM earlier or place Knights.esp in a late(r) or the default group.

MacSplody commented 2 years ago

FCOM_Convergence.esp, FCOM_ConvergenceNoFran.esp and FCOM_OscurosOverhaul.esp should all load after the following:
Mart's Monster Mod for FCOM.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Fran's Leveled Quests.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp

From: http://devnull.sweetdanger.net/fcomoptions.html

FCOM_OscurosOverhaul

Do not use this with MMM. If you use MMM, then you should use FCOM_Convergence.esp instead of FCOM_OscurosOverhaul.esp. If you don't use MMM, then FCOM_OscurosOverhaul can be used to support integration with other FCOM mods such as WarCry, Fran's, and Bob's Armory. You must load it after Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp. {{BASH:Relev,Delev}}

So if one was using FCOM_OscurosOverhaul.esp, then they can't use any files that rely on MMM such as FCOM_Knights.esp. Incompatibility for some OOO modules would need to be changed, such as Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul - Knights of Nine.esp. As there's no patch for FCOM_OscurosOverhaul.esp and Knights.esp, the OOO Knights patch would have to be used.

FCOM_OscurosOverhaul.esp may need relationship tags for faction changes as well. It's also possible that FCOM_OscurosOverhaul.esp is just missing changes made in an update.

MacSplody commented 2 years ago

Actors.Factions needs to be turned off for OOO when using FCOM_Convergence.esp. This is to make sure MMM faction changes are used, however UOP and USIP also block/revert MMM faction changes.

UOP

USIP

The best solution at the moment would be a patch, rather than having to turn off the Actors.Factions tag for multiple files.

MacSplody commented 2 years ago

FCOM_Ruin

This is an optional add-on FCOM patch for Ruined Tail's Tale by Simyaz. It requires Ruin 1.x-2.x. Do not use this with Ruin 3.x (RTT). It resolves a conflict with standard healing potions that caused them to revert to vanilla Oblivion behavior in early versions of the mod. See TOQL for details on Ruined Tail's Tale.

MacSplody commented 2 years ago

Sorting and tagging for core files, addons and patches that come with FCOM, as well as FCOM options MMM/Frans/OOO etc. are done. Anything extra such as OOO addons, or third party patches/addons can be done separately. So it may still need some tweaking here and there, but that can be done in another issue/PR.

Edit: Oh and the cleaning data wasn't added yet, would need to be tested for before and after results. But any ITMs are either going to be negated by a bashed patch or create wonky results.

Dredd893 commented 3 months ago

Macsplody, thanks for all the work you've put into this. I truly appreciate it.

I guess

1) I can use Loot to put the right tags (as removing faction on OOO when playing FCOM?)

2) From your post: "Yes, you can use either Mart's Monster Mod - Less Reavers.esp or Mart's Monster Mod - No Reavers.esp without issue as they modify different levelled creature lists to FCOM_NoReaversInGates.esp."

I take I could use both the FCOM plugin for No_Reavers in gates and Mart's no reavers/less reavers together?

MacSplody commented 3 months ago

I can use Loot to put the right tags (as removing faction on OOO when playing FCOM?)

With the changes to Wrye Bash in how it works since FCOM was first released. I'm not sure disabling those tags will produce the desired result. You may have to make a patch with OOO ESP as a master and any other FCOM main files.

I take I could use both the FCOM plugin for No_Reavers in gates and Mart's no reavers/less reavers together?

Ithink so, it has been a while since I have looked at them.

Dredd893 commented 3 months ago

With the changes to Wrye Bash in how it works since FCOM was first released. I'm not sure disabling those tags will produce the desired result. You may have to make a patch with OOO ESP as a master and any other FCOM main files.

This is far from a satisfying answer, sadly.

So what I'm left to do if I wish to play FCOM?

Use an old wrye bash version? Avoid using Loot altogether and still use the new wrye bash?

MacSplody commented 3 months ago

So what I'm left to do if I wish to play FCOM?

Use an old wrye bash version? Avoid using Loot altogether and still use the new wrye bash?

From testing turning off the Factions tag for OOO isn't required now. As FCOM_Convergence.esp has Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp as a master.

The records that would need to be patched are in Knight & Knights Uofficial patch and a few in DLCBattlehornCastle.esp & DLCFrostcrag.esp.

You can see the changes that would need to be patched in the file below. Even with the BOSS order things weren't being patched fully.

FCOM_DLC & Unofficial Patches_Patch.zip

Edit: Also keep in mind, I clean all the files I work with. So if you leave any dirty, you might have slightly different results in the bashed patch. I think it should mainly be in Levelled list records.

Dredd893 commented 3 months ago

Thanks for your help! I play with no DLC, luckily.

1) I guess that the tags added by Loot, are, then, useless? I think they should be reverted if so :P

2) Do you play with FCOM?

3) I'm a bit scared about cleaning ITM. For both Martigen's monster mod.esp and .esm and Martigen's monster mod for OOO.esp and Martigen's monster mod for OOO.esm

MacSplody commented 3 months ago

I guess that the tags added by Loot, are, then, useless? I think they should be reverted if so :P

Well no, they still matter, but they make a bit more sense now. Tags can generally only block changes where a module has a file as a master.

Do you play with FCOM?

No never. I only ever played Oblivion on a vanilla setup.

I'm a bit scared about cleaning ITM. For both Martigen's monster mod.esp and .esm and Martigen's monster mod for OOO.esp and Martigen's monster mod for OOO.esm

Umm you shouldn't need those files if you are using FCOM.

Most of the ITMs are in the Levelled lists, it can affect a few records. As long as there are no deleted records, then you can leave them dirty if you wish.

MacSplody commented 3 months ago

That's basically all I have for the basic FCOM setup.

Dredd893 commented 3 months ago

Before I was in a bit of haste and I didn't write the post I wanted to write.

First of all, what I should have written is "thanks for the help you're kindly offering me. I appreciate it".

Second: I use sometimes Horse armor DLC. The FCOM_DLC & unofficial patches you made (Thanks for that one) is only if you use Knights.esp, I guess?

Third: Thanks for reminding me I don't have to install every plugin. Been a really long while since I've used FCOM and I had forgot it --> I still plan to use Mart's monster mod for OOO.esp and .esm in case I go for an OOO+MMM environment. That's why I was curious if one should clean them from ITM. I will discover it, one day.

Forth: Try to play FCOM. Don't miss it :P

Fifth: have to ask one more thing: if you take a look at the page FCOM_Convergence (https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/12249?tab=description), it says so for Francesco 5.0:

5.0 Fran's Quick Install Guide with BAIN Run Wizard it will ask what if using Shivering Isle Choose Yes, if not choose No.Next Question ask Are you Installing has Part of FCOM Choose Yes,Next Screen Shows what will be installed, continueNext Screen Choose Chance of More EnimiesChoose Apply Selection and select finishIf you need Vendor Items and Leveled Quest then choose them 08 Optional Extra SI, if you did not choose SI during install then select them from 08 Optionial Extra

I'm wondering two things:

It tells you to get "Chance of More Enimies". Does it affect only SI?
In general, do you know, by being a tesedit god, if choosing Francesco SI makes the game apply some of the francesco's stuff to SI, or does it make the stuff from SI available for Cyrodil?

MacSplody commented 3 months ago

First of all, what I should have written is "thanks for the help you're kindly offering me. I appreciate it".

You're welcome.

The FCOM_DLC & unofficial patches you made (Thanks for that one) is only if you use Knights.esp, I guess?

Yes it's only important if you use Knights. There are two pathgrids and a few placed refs that needed patching.

--> I still plan to use Mart's monster mod for OOO.esp and .esm in case I go for an OOO+MMM environment. That's why I was curious if one should clean them from ITM. I will discover it, one day.

Cleaning can affect some levelled lists, that's about it really as far as I could see in testing.

The Actors.Factions tag is turned off in OOO esp when using Mart's monster mod for OOO.esp. Because that file doesn't have OOO esp as a master if I recall corectly. You could also add it as a master as a work around.

I think OOO changed at some point, as most of its changes where in the ESM before, where as now they're in the ESP.

It tells you to get "Chance of More Enimies". Does it affect only SI?

Only the SI version can be installed. It doesn't seem to modify vanilla locations, as FCOM removes those Levelled creature lists.

In general, do you know, by being a tesedit god, if choosing Francesco SI makes the game apply some of the francesco's stuff to SI, or does it make the stuff from SI available for Cyrodil?

I would say it applies Francesco changes to SI content.

the readme decription:

SHIVERING ISLES Since the 4.5 release the mod deals with the official expansion too. Every part of the mod now affects SI with the same approach vanilla Oblivion is dealt with. This doesn't however mean that SI is required, if you don't have the official expansion you can install the non SI version of the mod. Apart from expanding the mod to work in the new lands the SI version has some new unique features too like the Amber/Madness Items Forging System Overhaul (check the Leveled Quests section for more info). NOTE: A lev 9-12 char at least is now recommneded to adventure in the Shivering Isles.

Dredd893 commented 3 months ago

Thanks. I'm too scared to try the non-si version with FCOM.

And also the wizard doesn't work at all.

MacSplody commented 3 months ago

Thanks. I'm too scared to try the non-si version with FCOM.

It does nothing anyhow, those Levelled lists aren't used by FCOM and if they are FCOM removes anything Frans adds to them.

And also the wizard doesn't work at all.

With which mod manager? I'm using MO2 and it seems to work fine. The only odd thing it does is, it adds anything that isn't being installed to optional files under the mod.

loot / oblivion