lowercase gamma glyph

[tsouanas]

The glyph for lowercase gamma looks very wrong (more wrong than they usually look); as if it was a lambda or a y twisted to orient it properly.

The "handwritten" way to write a gamma is similar to the way one writes the "ell" version of "l": ℓ (but upside down).

In print, the hole in the loop is usually not visible, so it sometimes gives the wrong impression of a v-looking letter with a more... pointy point, or something resembling a Y, which should not be the case...

Relevant rant I found online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/typography/comments/5tgju4/rant_about_the_lower_case_greek_gamma_%CE%B3/

[datMaffin]

For fun, I gave it a try (and included it in my variation of Mononoki); made the loop extra large ;). Wondering if you have any comments/feedback:

VsCode:

I do not know how it would look on a regular (lowDPI) monitor though.

(the alpha is a little bit different as well.)

[tsouanas]

Now it looks like a gamma indeed! :D

[tsouanas]

In this particular example, in the word γάμμα of your screenshot, it looks like the spacing after γ is bigger than the rest, but this kind of problem is common in monospace fonts.

[tsouanas]

About the α glyph, usually the curve that ends on the bottom-right corner has the opposite curvature, but handwritten alphas sometimes look like that indeed. I'd have it's tangent at the bottom-right point be 0 or -1; here it looks -∞ (perpendicular to the writing-line). The top-right one seems ok. But it's quite similar to the original one, maybe I prefer the original one but I cannot spot why. The big issue was the gamma and your version turned a non-gamma into a gamma :)

[datMaffin]

@tsouanas Thanks for giving feedback ;)

In this particular example, in the word γάμμα of your screenshot, it looks like the spacing after γ is bigger than the rest, but this kind of problem is common in monospace fonts.

Yes, true.

From my perspective (non Greek speaker), I only ever used the greek alphabet for math, and, in the context of math, only single letters are used such that better kerning will not make much of a difference.

Similar for programming, I would not expect greek words, while single greek letters may be popular (for example in Julia-lang).

I can definitely see a tradeoff here. It would be great if it would also look really good for greek texts. Regarding the gamma loop, I would guess that most fonts decided to use a minimal loop in the gamma exactly for the reason of it looking better next to a α/o/etc.

About the α glyph, usually the curve that ends on the bottom-right corner has the opposite curvature, but handwritten alphas sometimes look like that indeed. I'd have it's tangent at the bottom-right point be 0 or -1; here it looks -∞ (perpendicular to the writing-line).

I did use http://www.foundalis.com/lan/hw/grkhandw.htm as inspiration/baseline, which shows both ways of (hand-)writing an alpha.

Consolas seems to have an alpha that looks exactly like what you described.

I decided to stick with the same curve (as mononoki) to be able to reuse the rounded edges. Those rounded edges are a real pain to get right in FontForge (the mononoki author used glyphs.app, which can round edges with just a right click).

The alpha stroke was changed to look more "handwritten" using the same technique I used for the gamma. It mainly meant that it is no longer symmetrical and that the right side became thicker. After staring at the letters for a while, I am considering replacing my alpha again with the original ;).

---

Mononoki:

Monofoki (some more tweaked glyphs can be seen ;) ):

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Somewhat related: Mononoki does not have a final sigma. Would a final sigma that would look like: be ok? (I basically copy and pasted a "c" and combined it with the bottom of a lower case zeta.)

---

May I ask if you (@tsouanas) are a native Greek speaker/writer?

[datMaffin]

About the α glyph, usually the curve that ends on the bottom-right corner has the opposite curvature, but handwritten alphas sometimes look like that indeed. I'd have it's tangent at the bottom-right point be 0 or -1; here it looks -∞ (perpendicular to the writing-line). The top-right one seems ok. But it's quite similar to the original one, maybe I prefer the original one but I cannot spot why. The big issue was the gamma and your version turned a non-gamma into a gamma :)

Gave it a quick try:

Would definetely need to make the right side less thick.

First try of reducing thickness was:

I do like the idea. Will definitely need more tweaking though ;)

[tsouanas]

Some quick remarks:

1. the α glyph looks great, but there's a disadvantage to adopting this version of writing it: it's pretty much identical with the "non-roman" style of writing 'a', so it's not immediately obvious that it's a greek alpha, and not an italic non-slanted 'a'. Actually what I suggested is not the second version of foundalis.com. It's his first version, but drawn a bit differently, so that the ending point has a rightward tendancy and not a downwards one like his. It's exactly like the one in Consolas, you're right, that's the one!

2. What you mention about γ's loop and the spacing, could also be "resolved" by using the other version of foundalis, the on in which the line intersects itself above the baseline (this results in a bigger/longer loop) and looks much closer to how greeks normally write γ.

3. Looking at your Mononoki x Mononoki-tweaked image:

α looks almost identical but I would also pick the original version due to this thickness that you mentioned; but I'd pick consolas's version over either ;)

β looks definitely better in tweaked (the original one looks like a German ß)

ρ and σ also look better in tweaked I'd say, but it's not too bad in the original (and it could be that it's more "mononoki-ish" if that makes any sense---I've no idea).

ν is much better in the tweaked version but it needs improving: it must be pointy at its bottom, not curvy..

υ is equally wrong, cause it looks like a u. Upsilon does not have an edge or a "foot" on either side, it's "bottom" looks like a cup ∪ frequently decorated with a small left-looking curve on its left side.

φ in both seems like the left (initial) part got lost as if there was no ink on the pen for the first moment of drawing.. (looks short and it usually has a tendency to "look to the right"); also its loop could be a tad smaller (check foundalis's cursive version of it), but it's not wrong or weird to leave it the way it is.

Χ is very weird, it should really look like a Latin X, with no weird curves.

Λ too, it should be pointy, in fact it should look exactly like Δ but without the base line.

Σ looks weird (like a bad MS Word sum instead of a nice TeX one): its ">" part should be less wide, and the point should be slightly higher than the middle of the total height.

Φ is way better on the tweaked version. The original version adds serifs but they are WAY too long to look normal.

For some reason mononoki Β has one serif, which looks weird because the font gives a non-serif impression; and if Β is to have its serifs, it should have both, I'd say. It should look identical to a Latin B.

δ looks bad in both, kinda reminds of a Norwegian ð or slightly a badly drawn σ. I think making it less pointy would result in a better-looking delta.

The ς you made looks really nice; I'd end the glyph with a slight leftward hint though (yours terminates looking downwards). Fun fact: the vast majority of Greeks (hand)write ς the same way as s.

ζ in that aspect is like ς, so same comment applies.

ξ should have its initial top line, just like ζ has it too, and the same ς/ζ comment about the bottom part applies here as well.

θ looks perfect but i think I'd adopt the "vartheta" version. (Which is also the best choice for φ, but not for π.)

ψ looks better in the tweaked, but still acceptable on the original one.

κ looks a bit wrong, though it's hard to describe why, but I'll give a try: it looks like a "|" and a "<" put together, but "in reality" the "\" part of the "<" is pretty much never symmetric with its "/" counterpart. Either one can be a bit curvy at its right endpoint, or the leftmost point of the "\" part can be brought higher to start somewhere ON the "/" part, without being the point that "/" intersects with "|"; also, the "/" part can start a bit lower-than-middle-height on the "|".

The glyphs in the following picture are pretty good, and some remarks I made and tried to describe with 1000 words in this message, are better understood in this 1 picture:

https://fontesk.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/new_computer_modern-5.jpg

[datMaffin]

Some quick remarks:

1. the α glyph looks great, but there's a disadvantage to adopting this version of writing it: it's pretty much identical with the "non-roman" style of writing 'a', so it's not immediately obvious that it's a greek alpha, and not an italic non-slanted 'a'.  Actually what I suggested is **not** the second version of foundalis.com.  It's his first version, but drawn a bit differently, so that the ending point has a rightward tendancy and not a downwards one like his.  It's exactly like the one in Consolas, you're right, that's the one!

Consolas makes it look easy ;) I did not succeed in creating a similar alpha that would look good.

2. What you mention about γ's loop and the spacing, could also be "resolved" by using the other version of foundalis, the on in which the line intersects itself _above_ the baseline (this results in a bigger/longer loop) and looks much closer to how greeks normally write γ.

Other fonts are able to cheat more with their line thickness. Mononoki is extremely constant in this. (Only some greek letters deviate to make intersection look nicer.)

If there were to be a real loop, it would probably look way too dark (like a black blob).

3. Looking at your Mononoki x Mononoki-tweaked image:

[...] ν is much better in the tweaked version but it needs improving: it must be pointy at its bottom, not curvy..

This kind of curvy is the pointy equivalent in mononoki (see also A, Lambda, Delta).

Λ too, it should be pointy, in fact it should look exactly like Δ but without the base line.

It does look exactly like a Delta.

υ is equally wrong, cause it looks like a u. Upsilon does not have an edge or a "foot" on either side, it's "bottom" looks like a cup ∪ frequently decorated with a small left-looking curve on its left side.

How about:

Χ is very weird, it should really look like a Latin X, with no weird curves.

If you talk about the upper case Chi, then it does look exactly like the (mononoki) Latin X. If you talk about the lower case chi, then it does have similar curves as Computer/Latin Modern Sans.

Σ looks weird (like a bad MS Word sum instead of a nice TeX one): its ">" part should be less wide, and the point should be slightly higher than the middle of the total height.

How about:

For some reason mononoki Β has one serif, which looks weird because the font gives a non-serif impression; and if Β is to have its serifs, it should have both, I'd say. It should look identical to a Latin B.

^^ One of the interesting choices of mononoki are the Latin "D" and "B": both have a serif on the top. If I correctly understand the intention of the original author, the reason was to differentiate bettwen D and 0 and B and 8. In addition, I personally really like this detail.

δ looks bad in both, kinda reminds of a Norwegian ð or slightly a badly drawn σ. I think making it less pointy would result in a better-looking delta.

There is not enough space for such a swoop. Computer/Latin Modern Sans has a bigger height difference between lower and upper case.

The ς you made looks really nice; I'd end the glyph with a slight leftward hint though (yours terminates looking downwards). Fun fact: the vast majority of Greeks (hand)write ς the same way as s.

ζ in that aspect is like ς, so same comment applies.

ξ should have its initial top line, just like ζ has it too, and the same ς/ζ comment about the bottom part applies here as well.

Yeah, the lower case greek in mononoki does not look as "handwritten" compared to most fonts. I personally think that introducing a slight curve to the left in the cases you mentioned would introduce more inconsistencies...

θ looks perfect but i think I'd adopt the "vartheta" version. (Which is also the best choice for φ, but not for π.)

Fonts have an additional field for vartheta. It would look like:

I am not a big fan of this particular version (it is extremely symmetrical). However, it should get the job done.

κ looks a bit wrong, though it's hard to describe why, but I'll give a try: it looks like a "|" and a "<" put together, but "in reality" the "" part of the "<" is pretty much never symmetric with its "/" counterpart. Either one can be a bit curvy at its right endpoint, or the leftmost point of the "" part can be brought higher to start somewhere ON the "/" part, without being the point that "/" intersects with "|"; also, the "/" part can start a bit lower-than-middle-height on the "|".

Hmm, I tried myself on a curvy one:

I do like the "simplicity" of the original kappa, though...

[tsouanas]

If there were to be a real loop, it would probably look way too dark (like a black blob).

I didn't get why, it seems to me that it'd be the opposite since the inner part of the loop would be bigger (and therefore whiter overall).

This kind of curvy is the pointy equivalent in mononoki (see also A, Lambda, Delta).

You are right! I checked with the Latin 'v' and it's just as curvy.. But in the Latin alphabet you tell apart 'v' from 'u' principally by the extra "leg" the letter 'u' has. In italic the two letters are just as curved. In greek you tell apart 'ν' from 'υ' principally by the fact that one is pointy and the other is curvy. The letter 'ν' in greek continues pointy even in its italic shape.

It does look exactly like a Delta.

Not at all! Λ on mononoki almost has an entire wide part on top with tangent 0, (exaggerating) it looks like Π, while Δ has almost a single point with tangent 0.

How about: (υ)

Your υ looks much better; it looks like an upsilon indeed! But the small leftwards curve I suggested on the left part, you put on the right. I'd say it looks more "upsilonish" if you put it on the left, and leave the right part straight. This way it looks very similar to an upright italic Latin 'v', but this is acceptable for an υ.

If you talk about the upper case Chi, then it does look exactly like the (mononoki) Latin X.

I was, and indeed it's identical. I guess I don't like this version of Latin X either.. ehhehe..

How about: (Σ)

WAY better! I would still bring the point of its '>' part a bit higher, but even without it it already looks nice.

One of the interesting choices of mononoki are the Latin "D" and "B" [...]

Weird. These particular serifs remind me of these letters' caligraphic versions seen in "mathcal": ℬ 𝒟 I'd say the pointness-vs-roundness is what separates B from 8 and the same about D and O/0.

There is not enough space for such a swoop. Computer/Latin Modern Sans has a bigger height difference between lower and upper case

One solution would be to just make it less pointy, another solution would be to make its 'o' part smaller/shorter to make some room. Currently it looks like a normal δ got it on the head with a hammer... ;)

I personally think that introducing a slight curve to the left in the cases you mentioned would introduce more inconsistencies...

Hmmm I don't really see why. ς, ζ, ξ all have the same "bottom end thingy" in Greek. Makes sense that this similarity is preserved in any font that has Greek letters. Also ζ,ξ usually both have this "top" line (which 'ς' never does).

Fonts have an additional field for vartheta. It would look like:

You pasted a phi glyph there (the non-var version of phi in TeX), not a theta one. Check TeX's \vartheta (or that site you mentioned, it has both theta's ("normal" and "var"). I guess it's weird but for theta and phi their "var" versions are extremely more common when handwritten. For phi, the var version is more common even in printed books. Theta's var version is not so common when printed, but it is more recognizable and it is also much more distinguishable from the uppercase version. Only thing I'd change about the current phi glyph is the heights of the leftmost line vs the loop's height. Currently the leftmost line is shorter; they should be either equally tall, or the loop should be a tad shorter.

(κ)

Your new κ doesn't look bad! (I'd bring its | part a tiny bit closer to its < part though.) It has the additional advantage that it looks different from mononoki's Cyrillic 'к' glyph. Either version seems acceptable but the older one can still be improved by making it less symmetrical, like the Cyrillic 'к' version of computer modern (which indeed uses these two glyphs to distinguish between the two letters).

[datMaffin]

The alphabet would now look like:

Edit: I also updated the "italic" (which is basically just slanted) for the greek:

Your υ looks much better; it looks like an upsilon indeed! But the small leftwards curve I suggested on the left part, you put on the right. I'd say it looks more "upsilonish" if you put it on the left, and leave the right part straight.

Oh yeah, I kinda mixed up left and right here. Every font I looked at had a curve on the right, which probably influenced me :wink:.

Pretty much every (monospaced) font seems to have their curve on the right. Having a curve on the left would also probably not look all that great in a monospaced font...

Hmmm I don't really see why. ς, ζ, ξ all have the same "bottom end thingy" in Greek. Makes sense that this similarity is preserved in any font that has Greek letters. Also ζ,ξ usually both have this "top" line (which 'ς' never does).

I feel like it would introduce an inconsistency compared to the other greek letters, because they do not have details similar to a swoop, e.g., the eta and rho are straight. (I know, not the best argument, the lower case pi does have a swoop...) Also, the current non swoopy style is just way easier to create :wink: .

You pasted a phi glyph there (the non-var version of phi in TeX),

Whops

I have tried to improve the var phi:

I also added a var theta:

Again, thanks for your feedback :smiley: !

[madmalik]

Hey! Its super nice what you all are doing here. Maybe there is a way to easily backport all your changes and addition into the glyphs file?

[datMaffin]

@madmalik can you open and copy paste from otf files? The otf files in the export folder in my master branch should contain all the changes (for regular + italic. The bolds are slightly out of date).

I could otherwise try and export it as ufo.

Feel free to iterate upon changes/go a different path ;). There was a bunch of interesting feedback by tsouanas I kind of ignored.

Quick note on the lower case eta and mu: I used my "n" width for these glyphs (you should probably not just copy and paste them). I added the detail of using the italic "n" shape for the italic lower case eta and mu.

[datMaffin]

@madmalik (Nearly forgot to also mention.)

Similar as eta and mu: For all the glyphs that are based on the omicron/latin "o": my latin "o" (and "O") is wider than in your original version.

[tsouanas]

@datMaffin about our 'varphi', it looks great, though this is the version most people would refer to as 'phi'. But as I think I already mentioned, it makes more sense the way you called it here. Your 'vartheta' looks great as well!

[madmalik]

Inspired by all your work and feedback, I have now undertaken a complete redraw of the greek characters. So far I have reworked and tweaked the lowercase characters and added var phi, var theta and final sigma.

This is what I've come up with.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

I will tackle the uppercase characters next and post the results here. :)

[tsouanas]

A few random comments that probably most Greeks would agree with: (1) the "teardrop" part of gamma could be a little bigger so that the intersecting point of the curve is a tiny bit higher; (2) the upper part of epsilon should be slightly smaller than the lower part; we don't write epsilon symmetric to any horizontal line, while yours is symmetric; (3) I would shift slightly kappa's vertical line to the right so that the "point" that it meets becomes a bit less "pointy" (see above comments on this letter); (4) omicron, rho, sigma are way too "compressed" (width-wise) in comparison with, say, alpha, epsilon, kappa... they should have the same width; (5) I'd shift SLIGHTLY both legs of pi so that they are a tiny bit farther apart from each other and make the right leg a tiny bit longer because right now it looks like it's shorter than the left; (6) delta's upper part should extend further to the right (check the drawing on https://en.wikipedia.org/Delta; there exist variations of this part that go upwards, downwards, or straight with no slope.

The rest seems pretty neat!

[madmalik]

Thanks so much for the feedback, it helps a lot! :)

I'm gonna incorporate that. On the topic on omicron, rho and sigma... you're right that they're pretty compressed. The reason is that i based it on dimensions of the o. For the ascii set i prioritised the whitespace between the letters over wider forms so its stays readable on very low resolutions and text sizes. I have more and more deviated from that for the greek characters because some really need the space to come out correctly, but in those letters still use the original width. But yeah, its more important to be consistent which other greek characters than be consistent with the latin base glyphs.

[madmalik]

@tsouanas I worked in your suggestions. What do you think?

[tsouanas]

Gamma is perfect, at least for Greeks; non-Greeks used to TeX's glyph \gamma are not very familiar with that hole in the letter might find the glyph confusing. But I think that if you decide to go with the hole-version indeed, then this looks perfect.

Delta too, the change was spot on, looks perfect now!

Pi, Omicron, Rho, also look much better now!

Only two extra comments in case you want to take them under consideration (although the glyphs already look really nice now):

On kappa: the tip of the top part gives a feeling that it extends farther than the tip of the bottom part (this is because of the angle that each stroke end, the top ends vertically while the bottom ends diagonally so it "looks" like the top part is longer than it should. Maybe trimming it a bit would resolve it; but if it were up to me I would kill this serif altogether on this letter.

On sigma: it's good that it's wider, but now the top part sticks out very little, looking a bit too similar to omicron. I'm out of suggestions on how to resolve this (maybe making it a tiny bit narrower without returning to the previous version? But, I repeat, it already looks really nice!

Something I hadn't noticed, on your lowercase-psi: the vertical line seems to extend too far on the top; usually it stops on the same level as the "υ" part of the letter in typed Greek. In handwritten Greek it's common for it to extend (as you have it here), maybe it'll look more natural as a typed letter if you don't extend it that much (this way you keep your "character" of the font without looking strange. (The equivalent Cyrillic lowercase seems to extend higher indeed, but I have no say on this, I just looked it up on wiki to see how it looks to compare.)

Fun fact only for anecdotal purposes which you should most definitely NOT take into account: on handwritten Greek it's common to see σ written as a little 6, and π as ∩ or ⊓.

[madmalik]

@tsouanas Thanks for the feedback!

Here are some tweaks to those letters:

the kappa looks cleaner without the serifs I think

[tsouanas]

All three look perfect now! :D About the curves/serifs of Psi's "∪ part": I cannot really pick between this serif'ed version and a non-serifed one. Either version seems weirdingly consistent with the rest of the font. (Oh, and about the height of the "| part": looks perfect right now!)

[madmalik]

i kinda like the serifs on the psi. I know that its a bit inconsistent with the base font, but I wanted to give it a bit of character :D

[tsouanas]

It doesn't really look inconsistent either way! Could you please post a pic containing all the current versions of glyphs typed next to each other? Like, one line all uppercase, and next line all lowercase.

[madmalik]

Still working on the uppercase letters. I will post that once that is done :)

[madmalik]

I've redone uppercase delta, theta, sigma, phi, psi and omega now. I've decided to base the design of the delta on the lambda and the alpha and not the other way around so the overall design is closer to the latin A.

Here are all the glyphs together

[SwooshyCueb]

I can't speak to its accuracy, but I really like that capital delta

[tsouanas]

Some of the uppercase glyphs seem to include arbitrary "artistic liberty" kind of improvisations to the glyphs one would not normally expect in this kind of font.

I have already went on on a mini-rant on Alpha, Delta, and Lambda (all of which must be pointy and not curvy), and on the very weird-looking X:

Χ is very weird, it should really look like a Latin X, with no weird curves. Λ too, it should be pointy, in fact it should look exactly like Δ but without the base line.

I will add some comments on the rest of the letters (besides trying to insist on those I have already commented on):

Beta's serif doesn't look bad, but it does make one ask why it's only on the top part. It reminds me of \mathcal B (ℬ). In any case I'd say it falls within the limits of "font personality" (unlike Delta/Lambda/Chi), although if you decide to go with the serif I'd add a bottom one too. (Beta and latin-B should look the same; any change made to one versus the other is probably completely arbitrary and with no base to aid the writer/reader whatsoever).

Iota's serifs look a bit exaggerated, I think, to the point that they look more like part-of-the-letter and less like serifs. I think they'd look much better if they become shorter. By the way, the latin uppercase I, has the same serifs? The two glyphs should be identical.

Ksi's middle - should be sliiiightly shorter, it looks like it has the same width as the top and bottom ones.

Zeta looks weirdingly improvised too, this letter should also be the same as the latin Z glyph. This curve is... totally random and "foreign" to the letter.

Upsilon: Looks very improvised too. There curvy versions of this letter have the exact opposite curvature. Please check the third glyph (greek Y) on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsilon#Correspondence_with_Latin_Y

Phi: since the font clearly adopts a "a bit of serifs bit over here, bit over there" personality, the uppercase Phi is an almost-must for tiny serif's on top AND bottom of its "|" part, in which case its "O" part should shrink vertically a little bit.

The rest of the glyphs look both nice and accurate!

[felis-blue]

@tsouanas while your feedback is appreciated, the tone in your last comment is starting to become a bit hostile. There is no need for "rants" or deprecating remarks. Please keep in mind that this font is a hobby project, provided for free to people who enjoy it. @madmalik has appreciated and incorporated much of your feedback on the greek letters, however there are other considerations going into the character design than just "accuracy": Readability in low resolutions, distinctness of the characters and overall cohesive design as well as personal taste and some artistic liberty are all at play here. Ultimately it is up to @madmalik to decide on the trade-offs he wants to make and I ask you to please respect that. Thank you.

[datMaffin]

Some of the uppercase glyphs seem to include arbitrary "artistic liberty" kind of improvisations to the glyphs one would not normally expect in this kind of font.

I have already went on on a mini-rant on Alpha, Delta, and Lambda (all of which must be pointy and not curvy), and on the very weird-looking X:

Χ is very weird, it should really look like a Latin X, with no weird curves. Λ too, it should be pointy, in fact it should look exactly like Δ but without the base line.

I will add some comments on the rest of the letters (besides trying to insist on those I have already commented on):

Beta's serif doesn't look bad, but it does make one ask why it's only on the top part. It reminds me of \mathcal B (ℬ). In any case I'd say it falls within the limits of "font personality" (unlike Delta/Lambda/Chi), although if you decide to go with the serif I'd add a bottom one too. (Beta and latin-B should look the same; any change made to one versus the other is probably completely arbitrary and with no base to aid the writer/reader whatsoever).

Iota's serifs look a bit exaggerated, I think, to the point that they look more like part-of-the-letter and less like serifs. I think they'd look much better if they become shorter. By the way, the latin uppercase I, has the same serifs? The two glyphs should be identical.

Ksi's middle - should be sliiiightly shorter, it looks like it has the same width as the top and bottom ones.

Zeta looks weirdingly improvised too, this letter should also be the same as the latin Z glyph. This curve is... totally random and "foreign" to the letter.

Upsilon: Looks very improvised too. There curvy versions of this letter have the exact opposite curvature. Please check the third glyph (greek Y) on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsilon#Correspondence_with_Latin_Y

Phi: since the font clearly adopts a "a bit of serifs bit over here, bit over there" personality, the uppercase Phi is an almost-must for tiny serif's on top AND bottom of its "|" part, in which case its "O" part should shrink vertically a little bit.

The rest of the glyphs look both nice and accurate!

It is hard... For example, now that the nu ν is "real pointy" and no longer "Mononoki pointy", there is maybe the question whether a "real pointy" is also appropriate for Alpha, Delta, Lambda...

But FYI in madmalik's screenshot the ABEZHIKMNOPTYX are identical to the latin counterparts.

The serifs of the I do not really look that big compared to similar fonts:

In general, monospaced fonts have most of the time very inconsistent serifs. They are commonly used when there would be too much "nothing".

[tsouanas]

@felis-blue either I mis-wrote my tone or you misread it. I understand and agree with every bit of fact that you wrote, and consider it obvious. I also think that neither @datMaffin nor @madmalik misread my tone so I'm not going to analyze this. Let's keep things on topic.

It is hard... For example, now that the nu ν is "real pointy" and no longer "Mononoki pointy", there is maybe the question whether a "real pointy" is also appropriate for Alpha, Delta, Lambda...

This makes sense, @datMaffin, though the point---pun kinda intended :P---about nu/upsilon is the main thing that distinguishes these two letters in greek; in latin it isn't (v isn't even pointy in italic font); in latin it is the "right leg" (ι-looking shape) of "u" that distinguishes from "v". So I guess that the pointy part of nu remaining really-pointy does not introduce an inconsistency within the font if the top-tips of A,Λ,Δ are not as sharp.

But FYI in madmalik's screenshot the ABEZHIKMNOPTYX are identical to the latin counterparts.

About Y, I think the font should distinguish between Greek and English (Latin) (look at the wikipedia picture I included above). About the rest I believe the glyphs should be the same.

[tsouanas]

In general, monospaced fonts have most of the time very inconsistent serifs. They are commonly used when there would be too much "nothing".

Makes sense! Since the latin I has the same serifs, and looking at the last image you included, it seems valid-in-context.

[madmalik]

@felis-blue either I mis-wrote my tone or you misread it. I understand and agree with every bit of fact that you wrote, and consider it obvious. I also think that neither @datMaffin nor @madmalik misread my tone so I'm not going to analyze this. Let's keep things on topic.

Actually I agree with @felis-blue about how your comment came off and I also think that this reaction is unnecessarily huffy.

Zeta looks weirdingly improvised too, this letter should also be the same as the latin Z glyph. This curve is... totally random and "foreign" to the letter.

Zeta is the same as latin Z and is curved this way for a reason. All diagonals in the ascii set have a slope that is a simple ratio like 1:1, 1:2 etc. This creates much cleaner lines after pixelation, especially on low resolutions. This is also the initial reason for the very wide points of letters like A, which then have developed into the style of this font.

I have decided to loosen this restriction for some letters outside of the ascii set in favor of more accurate character design, but I don't want to change that for the greek letters that have the same glyphs as ascii characters. And like @datMaffin said, the monospace restriction creates some additional constraints on the letter forms.

I'm gonna look into the capital Y tho and maybe make some adjustments.

[tsouanas]

I have decided to loosen this restriction for some letters outside of the ascii set in favor of more accurate character design, but I don't want to change that for the greek letters that have the same glyphs as ascii characters.

I agree that this wouldn't make sense. (about ABEZHIKMNOPTX, excluding only Y because of what I mentioned earlier); although it is common to see it Upsilon displayed with an identical glyph to Y in many fonts. [sidenote/trivia: car's license plates in Greece are limited to using only glyphs that are common to ascii and greek, and Y is considered to be in this list (it's exactly the list that @datMaffin mentioned).] It's just that---as the wiki paragraph mentions---such distinction for Upsilon/Y does make some sense (as in: it's not arbitrary) and it is kinda handy, though it's not a matter of correctness/accuracy, one way or another! Keeping Upsilon/Y with identical glyphs is accurate/correct!

Zeta is the same as latin Z and is curved this way for a reason. All diagonals in the ascii set have a slope that is a simple ratio like 1:1, 1:2 etc. This creates much cleaner lines after pixelation, especially on low resolutions. This is also the initial reason for the very wide points of letters like A, which then have developed into the style of this font.

I understand what you said about the slope, though I don't get where the curve part kicks in. I'm curious to understand the thing about pixelation that you mentioned (comparing to other monospace fonts) and also comparing to the absence of those curves in N and M. But this has nothing to do with greek: once you mentioned that the ascii Z has the same glyph as the greek Zeta, I withdrew my comment about Zeta! ;)

[One more sidenote/trivia about curve of the top of Λ: Π sometimes is handwritten as a ⋂ (no angles at all), and π sometimes is written as a ∩, maybe this is one more reason to insist on the Λ being a bit more pointy, but one can encounter curvy versions of Λ too, I'd guess. One more variation that is even more common about π/Π, is to have a little serif on the top-left part only (like Beta has right now), but I have never seen any of these versions on a typed font; only handwritten.]

[madmalik]

I understand what you said about the slope, though I don't get where the curve part kicks in. I'm curious to understand the thing about pixelation that you mentioned (comparing to other monospace fonts) and also comparing to the absence of those curves in N and M.

Most of the diagonal is straight and has a slope of 1:1. The curves are there to connect the diagonal to the upper and lower bars. Theoretically the diagonal could have a slope of 1:2, but in my opinion that doesn't look as good. See this simplified example when compressed down to a pixel grid:

The diagonals of the M and N both use 1:2 ratios, which works better their contexts.

I don't know of other fonts that use this specific technique. There are other ways to accomplish clean rendering on small resolutions, this is just the way I chose to do it.

[tsouanas]

Thanks for the explanation! The pixelated 1:1 version looks really nice, and I can see the connection with the curves you mentioned; makes sense now! I just realized that all this discussion is under an open issue on the old gamma glyph, which has been more-than-resolved. Should I close this issue? I also just realized that the accented versions (άέήίόύώϊϋΐΰ & uppercase) are missing, but I saw there's an open issue about it. Let me know if you need feedback with it.

[madmalik]

I've used this issue to keep track of all the greek letters, so its all good. But I also think this is resolved now.

I've decided to keep the Upsilon as it is. I've tried a few variations, but I think it doesn't really work well in this context.

[madmalik]

@tsouanas I have now added the accented characters and posted a screenshot in #11, your feedback would be most welcome over there!