Hide active disguise smoke particles upon cloaking

[AzureWoof]

Description

I was originally going to make this a bug report, but the nature of the issue itself isn't exactly a bug; it's an oversight at best. As a Spy, disguising while cloaked will correctly make sure that no disguise smoke particles show up so that you won't reveal your position to enemies. However, disguising right before cloaking for any reason will end up showing the smoke particles anyway for a decent duration of the cloak, resulting in enemies knowing exactly where you are and what direction you're going until the particles disappear. This wouldn't be too much of an issue by itself if the particles themselves didn't last so long. Many new players accidentally end up doing this, completely unaware that it reveals their position. This problem can guarantee your death in many instances if you don't remember to disguise after cloaking.

Checklist

• [x] None of the open or closed issues document this idea.
• [x] This is a new idea, not a bug.
• [x] This idea does not seriously affect game balance.
• [x] This is obviously an improvement, not something that people commonly disagree on.
• [x] This is not an idea for new game content (e.g. new weapons, maps, sounds).

• [x] This idea is for the code of the game, not for textures, sounds, or other resources.
• [ ] This idea has been implemented in vanilla TF2.
• [ ] There is proof that this idea is well liked (e.g. a history of use of a similar mod in a competitive league).
• [ ] This idea has been implemented in a mod.
• [ ] This feature has existed in the vanilla game but was removed.
• [ ] This idea is for internal procedures or tooling (e.g. improving the build process, supporting new systems).

Alternatives

1. Find any way to stop enemies from seeing particle effects attached to a Spy that is either in the process of cloaking, or is fully cloaked.

[ghost]

I'm pretty sure they only locked it because of @OnajStoJesam treating his opinion as objective fact and being rude to @bloqtf2 for disagreeing with it.

I personally don't agree with it being a bug but the discussion of it's merits is honestly pretty interesting.

[ghost]

I'm pretty sure they only locked it because of @OnajStoJesam treating his opinion as objective fact and being rude to @bloqtf2 for disagreeing with it.

Maybe

I personally don't agree with it being a bug but the discussion of it's merits is honestly pretty interesting.

I believe it's a bug, but it doesn't really matter whether or not it is, since arguments from both sides aren't really based on intent, cause that would be flawed thinking for obvious reasons.

[ghost]

Honestly, IDK, I don't think conversations with the collaborators were limited, in fact, I've responded to all of them. Guess we just agree to disagree and then if somebody else comes along we may respond to them?

Okay, let's stop

Also if no community leader clears this up, i'll just assume "yes, you may continue"

[ghost]

Instead of coming to incorrect conclusions, I'd like to hear you explain your thought process

Okay, i want the project to stick to fixing and improving the code, quality of life improvements are a grey area to me, since it includes things that i would consider good, such as adding more options in the options menu, and things i consider to be off the rails, such as the gameplay changes you guys propose here

It's not exactly an uncommon way of saying it, but fine, it means that the effects would be next to none, very small and unnoticeable.

Okay, and i consider them to be too much

I don't see why you would, instead of making an argument, tell me the two different uses of the same word in one of my points. It's much more reasonable to assume that there was an attempt to make an argument, than there was to do something as random as that.

Okay, fair enough

Because it's clear you don't know how to continue this conversation

I do know, but if you think i'm missing a social cue or something, then maybe

I'll give you a hand. I want this bug removed, the two arguments I am using, and which I have elaborated on, are as follows; this bug is annoying

If we were to remove the "annoying" parts of the game, we would probably just get rid of it entirely and reach b4nny's vision of the game

This bug serves no purpose other than being annoying

False, you wouldn't know that unless you created the smoke trail yourself. Wait..

[OnajStoJesam]

I'm pretty sure they only locked it because of @OnajStoJesam treating his opinion as objective fact and being rude to @bloqtf2 for disagreeing with it.

I personally don't agree with it being a bug but the discussion of it's merits is honestly pretty interesting.

Quote that example of being rude, and then tell me why you dislike criticism.

I'm treating my opinion as a fact because I believe it is. I'm not being asked if chocolate is better than vanilla, I'm being asked if four comes after three.

[OnajStoJesam]

Instead of coming to incorrect conclusions, I'd like to hear you explain your thought process

Okay, i want the project to stick to fixing and improving the code, quality of life improvements are a grey area to me, since it includes things that i would consider good, such as adding more options in the options menu, and things i consider to be off the rails, such as the gameplay changes you guys propose here

It's not exactly an uncommon way of saying it, but fine, it means that the effects would be next to none, very small and unnoticeable.

Okay, and i consider them to be too much

I don't see why you would, instead of making an argument, tell me the two different uses of the same word in one of my points. It's much more reasonable to assume that there was an attempt to make an argument, than there was to do something as random as that.

Okay, fair enough

Because it's clear you don't know how to continue this conversation

I do know, but if you think i'm missing a social cue or something, then maybe

I'll give you a hand. I want this bug removed, the two arguments I am using, and which I have elaborated on, are as follows; this bug is annoying

If we were to remove the "annoying" parts of the game, we would probably just get rid of it entirely and reach b4nny's vision of the game

This bug serves no purpose other than being annoying

False, you wouldn't know that unless you created the smoke trail yourself. Wait..

It's a bugfix. not exactly a gameplay change. And even if it was not a bug, it's a mechanic that acts like one.

How can it be too much? It's a way of finding out where arguably the weakest class in the game is, that rarely happens. How does the size of a bug warrant it should be left untouched? There were bugs way bigger than this. Imagine if infinite hp heavy wasn't removed because the bug had a huge impact on the game.

The issue is that a significant portion of our conversation is reiterating the same two points.

But this part of the game serves no other purpose other than being annoying.

Oh yes, I need to be a Valve employee to know that infinite hp heavy, legless and armless disguises, ramdom flame partciles, unusual particles, medibeams, and giant white spheres randomly appearing in maps is a bug. If not for something as obvious as pointlessness of that mechanic can you deduce that this is a bug, then just remember all the similar bugs with disguising; minicrit, crit, and I believe healing particles stay for a moment after cloaking.

[107zxz]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

[OnajStoJesam]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

[rcmaehl]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

Issues that aren't really issues

[ghost]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

Issues that aren't really issues

From your perspective, which you haven't substantiated with some form of logic behind it.

[treacherousfiend]

you just proved his point.

It's not an issue we can really decide 100% on (hence this argument), it is a borderline issue.

[ghost]

you just proved his point.

It's not an issue we can really decide 100% on (hence this argument), it is a borderline issue.

Well then let's just not change anything if we're gonna use that extremely unhelpful logic.

[treacherousfiend]

Yes, thats a borderline issue. We cannot agree on something, so we cannot, and probably should not, change it.

[ghost]

Yes, thats a borderline issue. We cannot agree on something, so we cannot, and probably should not, change it.

That is flawed since that is true for all issues, and a sample size of however many people participate in these feature suggestions/bug reports is simply unrepresentative of any general community opinion, so not only is it unhelpful but doesn't follow it's own processes.

[treacherousfiend]

This is the only issue that has had a serious argument on it, and its going nowhere. This conversation has been going in circles for over a week but it keeps going.

[Margen67]

Why not have the smoke be visible to the player?

[ghost]

This is the only issue that has had a serious argument on it, and its going nowhere. This conversation has been going in circles for over a week but it keeps going.

You only need to look at a loop or two to figure out where the actual end is tho.

[rcmaehl]

Yes, thats a borderline issue. We cannot agree on something, so we cannot, and probably should not, change it.

That is flawed since that is true for all issues, and a sample size of however many people participate in these feature suggestions/bug reports is simply unrepresentative of any general community opinion, so not only is it unhelpful but doesn't follow it's own processes.

A quick poll of both main tf2 discords show most players want the smoke kept.

[melvyn2]

Yes, thats a borderline issue. We cannot agree on something, so we cannot, and probably should not, change it.

That is flawed since that is true for all issues, and a sample size of however many people participate in these feature suggestions/bug reports is simply unrepresentative of any general community opinion, so not only is it unhelpful but doesn't follow it's own processes.

A quick poll of both main tf2 discords show most players want the smoke kept.

A quick poll also show they want this issue locked.

[ghost]

It's a bugfix. not exactly a gameplay change.

You don't get to make a claim like this with zero evidence, i can literally just say "No" and brush you off, unless you have studied the code and are ready to show us the "bug" that produces the behaviour.

And even if it was not a bug

So you're not even sure it's a bug

It's a mechanic that acts like one.

This is too opinionated for me to take seriously

How can it be too much? It's a way of finding out where arguably the weakest class in the game is, that rarely happens. How does the size of a bug warrant it should be left untouched? There were bugs way bigger than this. Imagine if infinite hp heavy wasn't removed because the bug had a huge impact on the game.

Again, you assume it's a bug, we seem to appreciate the smoke trail differently, but it shouldn't matter because it's an argument, not a feels thread

The issue is that a significant portion of our conversation is reiterating the same two points.

Okay

But this part of the game serves no other purpose other than being annoying.

Again, tries to state a fact that he can't state

Oh yes, I need to be a Valve employee to know that infinite hp heavy, legless and armless disguises, ramdom flame partciles, unusual particles, medibeams, and giant white spheres randomly appearing in maps is a bug.

Strawman

If not for something as obvious as pointlessness of that mechanic can you deduce that this is a bug, then just remember all the similar bugs with disguising; minicrit, crit, and I believe healing particles stay for a moment after cloaking.

Those may be bugs, idk

[AzureWoof]

For the love of god, just stop arguing. It's very apparent that this is somehow extremely controversial. All I can suggest at this point is either the possibility of adding some sort of HUD indicator that tells you that you're visible when the smoke effect is still active, or a tip that warns about this common mistake-- if anything at all. It's safe to say that the effect itself shouldn't be altered.

[ghost]

For the love of god, just stop arguing. It's very apparent that this is somehow extremely controversial. All I can suggest at this point is either the possibility of adding some sort of HUD indicator that tells you that you're visible when the smoke effect is still active, or a tip that warns about this common mistake-- if anything at all. It's safe to say that the effect itself shouldn't be altered.

No arguing here, just polite discourse between no more than 5 people, and just because you were never firm on your idea doesn't mean we all have to agree on one sided compromises.

It is very apparent that it shouldn't be changed because 5 people have talked about it, of which 2 made up 99% of the discussion? Yeesh, that's quite controversial, got the Fox news talking about it.

[ghost]

Yes, thats a borderline issue. We cannot agree on something, so we cannot, and probably should not, change it.

That is flawed since that is true for all issues, and a sample size of however many people participate in these feature suggestions/bug reports is simply unrepresentative of any general community opinion, so not only is it unhelpful but doesn't follow it's own processes.

A quick poll of both main tf2 discords show most players want the smoke kept.

They still have a small sample size, and the point of every one of my posts was to explain why it should be reconsidered if not agreed upon.

[melvyn2]

For the love of god, just stop arguing. It's very apparent that this is somehow extremely controversial. All I can suggest at this point is either the possibility of adding some sort of HUD indicator that tells you that you're visible when the smoke effect is still active, or a tip that warns about this common mistake-- if anything at all. It's safe to say that the effect itself shouldn't be altered.

No arguing here, just polite discourse between no more than 5 people, and just because you were never firm on your idea doesn't mean we all have to agree on one sided compromises.

It is very apparent that it shouldn't be changed because 5 people have talked about it, of which 2 made up 99% of the discussion? Yeesh, that's quite controversial, got the Fox news talking about it.

The point is that this has been going in circles and is completely useless. Also, blaming the issue's author and giving unfriendly sarcasm doesn't make it look like "polite discourse."

[ghost]

For the love of god, just stop arguing. It's very apparent that this is somehow extremely controversial. All I can suggest at this point is either the possibility of adding some sort of HUD indicator that tells you that you're visible when the smoke effect is still active, or a tip that warns about this common mistake-- if anything at all. It's safe to say that the effect itself shouldn't be altered.

No arguing here, just polite discourse between no more than 5 people, and just because you were never firm on your idea doesn't mean we all have to agree on one sided compromises. It is very apparent that it shouldn't be changed because 5 people have talked about it, of which 2 made up 99% of the discussion? Yeesh, that's quite controversial, got the Fox news talking about it.

The point is that this has been going in circles and is completely useless. Also, blaming the issue's author and giving unfriendly sarcasm doesn't make it look like "polite discourse."

If it's going in circles then what prevents you from looking at the first one and coming to a conclusion?

I'm not blaming anybody, and it was just very funny to me that people are now calling for a lock and such just because 2 people exchanged a lot of text.

[melvyn2]

If it's going in circles then what prevents you from looking at the first one and coming to a conclusion?

The argument you are trying to keep going. As soon as someone makes a decision, lo and behold, another text wall. That's why it should be locked, not "just" because people are talking.

[ghost]

If it's going in circles then what prevents you from looking at the first one and coming to a conclusion?

The argument you are trying to keep going. As soon as someone makes a decision, lo and behold, another text wall. That's why it should be locked, not "just" because people are talking.

I mean I see no point in them publicly stating their decision if it isn't for people to see and engage with.

And also I see no problem in big paragraphs, you aren't forced to read them, and the guy I was sending them to seemed not to mind and politely responded every single time.

[OnajStoJesam]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

Issues that aren't really issues

We wouldn't be having a 77+ post discussion about a non-issue.

[ghost]

The point is that this has been going in circles and is completely useless. Also, blaming the issue's author and giving unfriendly sarcasm doesn't make it look like "polite discourse."

Well, the internet is a lonely place, let alone irl, so when conversations happen, we take those

[melvyn2]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

Issues that aren't really issues

We wouldn't be having a 77+ post discussion about a non-issue.

Yes, you would.

[OnajStoJesam]

Yes, thats a borderline issue. We cannot agree on something, so we cannot, and probably should not, change it.

And here you come as a walking example of a middle ground fallacy. One party here is right, and the other is wrong.

[OnajStoJesam]

It's a bugfix. not exactly a gameplay change.

You don't get to make a claim like this with zero evidence, i can literally just say "No" and brush you off, unless you have studied the code and are ready to show us the "bug" that produces the behaviour.

And even if it was not a bug

So you're not even sure it's a bug

It's a mechanic that acts like one.

This is too opinionated for me to take seriously

How can it be too much? It's a way of finding out where arguably the weakest class in the game is, that rarely happens. How does the size of a bug warrant it should be left untouched? There were bugs way bigger than this. Imagine if infinite hp heavy wasn't removed because the bug had a huge impact on the game.

Again, you assume it's a bug, we seem to appreciate the smoke trail differently, but it shouldn't matter because it's an argument, not a feels thread

The issue is that a significant portion of our conversation is reiterating the same two points.

Okay

But this part of the game serves no other purpose other than being annoying.

Again, tries to state a fact that he can't state

Oh yes, I need to be a Valve employee to know that infinite hp heavy, legless and armless disguises, ramdom flame partciles, unusual particles, medibeams, and giant white spheres randomly appearing in maps is a bug.

Strawman

If not for something as obvious as pointlessness of that mechanic can you deduce that this is a bug, then just remember all the similar bugs with disguising; minicrit, crit, and I believe healing particles stay for a moment after cloaking.

Those may be bugs, idk

The evidence and the reasoning behind it has been provided multiple times in every single one of the many posts Baruch and I have posted. Don't mistake your inability to understand arguments behind a point for a lack of them.

I am very sure it's a bug. I said "even if it's not" to say that exactly that would have no impact on the argument I was about to make. One which you have failed to say anything about...

It's easy to confuse elaboration of a nonsensical argument as attacking a strawman. You could have spared both of us a decent amount time simply writing what you've actually meant to say.

They are bugs. They're pointless, and it would make no sense to have them in game. They don't work well with actual mechanics, namely invisibility.

[OnajStoJesam]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

Issues that aren't really issues

We wouldn't be having a 77+ post discussion about a non-issue.

Yes, you would.

No, we would not.

[Margen67]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

Issues that aren't really issues

We wouldn't be having a 77+ post discussion about a non-issue.

Yes, you would.

No, we would not.

maybe

[OnajStoJesam]

Remember, If valve ever does do anything with tc2, they will not pull it wholesale, rather just implement the changes they see fit to their own code. Maybe there should be an enhancements branch to separate borderline issues like this, as the programming efforts should not go to waste.

What do you mean by "borderline issues"?

Issues that aren't really issues

We wouldn't be having a 77+ post discussion about a non-issue.

Yes, you would.

No, we would not.

maybe

perhaps

[agrastiOs]

As long as the discussion doesn't go off to rails and doesn't break the Code of Conduct, there's no good reason to lock this.

[ghost]

The evidence and the reasoning behind it has been provided multiple times in every single one of the many posts Baruch and I have posted. Don't mistake your inability to understand arguments behind a point for a lack of them.

Maybe we have a different notion of what a "bug" is, i consider a bug to be an error in the syntax or algorithm of a program, what about you?

I am very sure it's a bug. I said "even if it's not" to say that exactly that would have no impact on the argument I was about to make. One which you have failed to say anything about...

They are bugs. They're pointless, and it would make no sense to have them in game. They don't work well with actual mechanics, namely invisibility.

I'm going to refrain from responding to this until i know what you mean by "bug", since it seems to be a loaded word from the way you're using it

[sapphonie]

I would say an easy solution to this would be to leave the current behavior as it is, but offer a "patched" version behind a cvar, like tf_show_disguise_smoke_while_cloaking or something.

[ghost]

I would say an easy solution to this would be to leave the current behavior as it is, but offer a "patched" version behind a cvar, like tf_show_disguise_smoke_while_cloaking or something.

There are already ways of knowing this happens, the issue is not the player not knowing, the player would have 0 benefits from knowing why he died after the fact unless he truly didn't know of the mechanic, that being said, I don't believe it should be kept in the game and I'd be happy to explain why again if needed.

[wgetJane]

can you explain why again

[ghost]

can you explain why again

Sure,

What a certain feature must do to make sense to have is either allow some other feature to be built of off it or require skill to be engaged with in some way, or of course, a combination of these 2 categories. Why is this so? Well, it's nothing special really, just that if it weren't any of these 2, then a feature wouldn't have a purpose in gameplay, and would therefore not make sense to have as a gameplay mechanic. Hopefully, we agree on that.

Now, if we assume that we do agree on that, let's dissect the smoke feature:

Which one of these qualities, or both, does it possess? Well, let's see:

No other feature is based around it, just try and think of one and you'll see what I mean, no feature requires any insight of or use of this feature for its mechanics.

Now, why is this important?

Well, if we figured out that there is no reason for it that exists that matches requirement number 1 (the above mentioned), then we must conclude that it's self-referencing, that is, that the reason given to us (by the game) for its purpose is its own purpose. What do I mean by that? Well, if you ask anyone and look at how it works, they'll happily tell you that the smoke trail that ensues is there to serve as a punishment for not disguising only after cloaking fully. This means that the purpose for it existing given to us by the game is so that it punishes not following it, meaning its purpose is to say that it exists as a reason given for why we should follow it, which in turn makes it self-referencing.

The "skill" required to follow it's rules consists of clicking a sliver of time later than you would, meaning it takes no skill, something I hope we can agree on.

Why is this important?

Well, it's important because in the previous section we concluded that the mechanic is self-referencing, meaning circular and pointless, such is often the case with a circle. And we already came to the conclusion that pointless things should be removed from the game. Now how does this relate to that? Well, this would be the saving grace of anyone arguing that it should stay if it were true, as the mechanic wouldn't be pointless, self-referencing, and circular anymore, it's point would be to punish lack of skill, which is a genuine and sound purpose that can and should be taken as a reason for something to stay in the game. However, since this isn't the case, we're back to square one.

So the mechanic is circular, self-referencing, pointless and requires no skill to engage with, at this point you might have already seen what I mean, but in the case you haven't, here is an analogy to help explain it:

Imagine instead of a large stone, a large one-sided mirror acting portal of the same proportions in its place:

So a large portal that acts as a one-sided mirror that slid down to a road is blocking 90% of the road, what remains is the utmost right of the right lanes, making up 10 percent of the road. (from your perspective)

The reflective side of the mirror is facing you and the transparent side of the mirror is facing away from you.

You're in the utmost left lane.

You're in a car driving, and so is everybody else.

Naturally, your goal as well as the goal of everyone else is to get past the roadblock.

This creates an inconvenience which you care to avoid.

People lack morals. Instead, they prioritize efficiency.

You are forced to drive to the utmost right line (a long way) to avoid the roadblock. People going opposite of your direction (towards you) go straight through the portal and through you, leaving you mangled or dead as a result of a car crash, one which you couldn't have braced for, not that it would matter.

You are then told that the reason the portal exists is so to punish you for not turning over a random stick twice.

That's what this smoke feature is.

If you aren't yet on board, let's add a similar feature to another class arbitrarily:

Add a mechanic to Demoknight that takes away 85-90% or 100% of his health (based on RNG) if he swings right before a trimp. (Forget how it would be coded for a second) Sounds good? Personally, no, it doesn't. Now let's apply the same line of reasoning to this mechanic, as I take on the role of the devil's advocate for a moment:

This feature shouldn't be removed, after all, Demo can stop himself from swinging right before a trimp, and by removing this, you're removing a huge part of the skill ceiling, I mean, imagine what kinds of brainless plays the demo could do if it were to be removed. Knowing when not to swing, and stopping yourself for an arbitrary reason takes a lot of knowledge and skill, it would be stupid to call it just "refraining from clicking", as it does not properly showcase the insane amount of talent one must possess to do so. This punishes not randomly remembering to do something because you must and for no other reason, and we mustn't remove such an important, fitting punishment for such a gruesome crime.

[OnajStoJesam]

The evidence and the reasoning behind it has been provided multiple times in every single one of the many posts Baruch and I have posted. Don't mistake your inability to understand arguments behind a point for a lack of them.

Maybe we have a different notion of what a "bug" is, i consider a bug to be an error in the syntax or algorithm of a program, what about you?

I am very sure it's a bug. I said "even if it's not" to say that exactly that would have no impact on the argument I was about to make. One which you have failed to say anything about...

They are bugs. They're pointless, and it would make no sense to have them in game. They don't work well with actual mechanics, namely invisibility.

I'm going to refrain from responding to this until i know what you mean by "bug", since it seems to be a loaded word from the way you're using it

It's a flaw, oversight, error, or whatever you want it to be. What's important to me is that it's causing an unexpected/unwanted outcome, that outcome being the puff of smoke thing.

[ghost]

It's a flaw, oversight, error, or whatever you want it to be. What's important to me is that it's causing an unexpected/unwanted outcome, that outcome being the puff of smoke thing.

All those words "bug, flaw, oversight, error" imply a whole judgement that you haven't shown us yet, so either stop using loaded language or show us how you have loaded it. No one should have to agree with you on this hidden premise to engage with your points

[OnajStoJesam]

It's a flaw, oversight, error, or whatever you want it to be. What's important to me is that it's causing an unexpected/unwanted outcome, that outcome being the puff of smoke thing.

All those words "bug, flaw, oversight, error" imply a whole judgement that you haven't shown us yet, so either stop using loaded language or show us how you have loaded it. No one should have to agree with you on this hidden premise to engage with your points

"A software bug is an error, flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways. ... Bugs may have subtle effects or cause the program to crash or freeze the computer."

I don't see how my use of the word "bug" is an example of loaded language. I genuinely don't know if you're experiencing some sort of memory loss, or if you're just choosing to mess with me. I've been giving you examples of how the puff of smoke thing is a bug the entire time.

"They are bugs. They're pointless, and it would make no sense to have them in game. They don't work well with actual mechanics, namely invisibility."

"If not for something as obvious as pointlessness of that mechanic can you deduce that this is a bug, then just remember all the similar bugs with disguising; minicrit, crit, and I believe healing particles stay for a moment after cloaking."

So, here's me saying it again.

A mechanic or a feature allows for other mechanics or features to exists (eg. damage being able to propel). If a mechanic or a feature does not do that, then it rewards and penalizes the player (eg. rocketjumping). If a mechanic only penalizes or rewards a player, than it's a very basic and impactful core mechanic (eg. different movement speeds on classes). This is how a mechanics look like. Even the worst mechanics and the dumbest mechanics in the game follow this logic (eg. random crits). However, the puff of smoke thing, does not. It only penalizes (and it's not even close to being a basic, core mechanic), and it can be easily entirely avoided.

[ghost]

"A software bug is an error, flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways. ... Bugs may have subtle effects or cause the program to crash or freeze the computer."

I don't see how my use of the word "bug" is an example of loaded language. I genuinely don't know if you're experiencing some sort of memory loss, or if you're just choosing to mess with me. I've been giving you examples of how the puff of smoke thing is a bug the entire time.

"They are bugs. They're pointless, and it would make no sense to have them in game. They don't work well with actual mechanics, namely invisibility."

"If not for something as obvious as pointlessness of that mechanic can you deduce that this is a bug, then just remember all the similar bugs with disguising; minicrit, crit, and I believe healing particles stay for a moment after cloaking."

So, here's me saying it again.

A mechanic or a feature allows for other mechanics or features to exists (eg. damage being able to propel). If a mechanic or a feature does not do that, then it rewards and penalizes the player (eg. rocketjumping). If a mechanic only penalizes or rewards a player, than it's a very basic and impactful core mechanic (eg. different movement speeds on classes). This is how a mechanics look like. Even the worst mechanics and the dumbest mechanics in the game follow this logic (eg. random crits). However, the puff of smoke thing, does not. It only penalizes (and it's not even close to being a basic, core mechanic), and it can be easily entirely avoided.

Actually, you're on the wrong issue anyways, as this an "enhancement" issue, not a "bug" marked one. I actually don't need to argue with anything you're saying, because the presence of a bug in the smoke trail code is only verified by studying the code, not some random heuristics of yours

[OnajStoJesam]

"A software bug is an error, flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways. ... Bugs may have subtle effects or cause the program to crash or freeze the computer." I don't see how my use of the word "bug" is an example of loaded language. I genuinely don't know if you're experiencing some sort of memory loss, or if you're just choosing to mess with me. I've been giving you examples of how the puff of smoke thing is a bug the entire time. "They are bugs. They're pointless, and it would make no sense to have them in game. They don't work well with actual mechanics, namely invisibility." "If not for something as obvious as pointlessness of that mechanic can you deduce that this is a bug, then just remember all the similar bugs with disguising; minicrit, crit, and I believe healing particles stay for a moment after cloaking." So, here's me saying it again. A mechanic or a feature allows for other mechanics or features to exists (eg. damage being able to propel). If a mechanic or a feature does not do that, then it rewards and penalizes the player (eg. rocketjumping). If a mechanic only penalizes or rewards a player, than it's a very basic and impactful core mechanic (eg. different movement speeds on classes). This is how a mechanics look like. Even the worst mechanics and the dumbest mechanics in the game follow this logic (eg. random crits). However, the puff of smoke thing, does not. It only penalizes (and it's not even close to being a basic, core mechanic), and it can be easily entirely avoided.

Actually, you're on the wrong issue anyways, as this an "enhancement" issue, not a "bug" marked one. I actually don't need to argue with anything you're saying, because the presence of a bug in the smoke trail code is only verified by studying the code, not some random heuristics of yours

And here we go. Is this your reaction to finally having to admit you're wrong?

[ghost]

And here we go. Is this your reaction to finally having to admit you're wrong?

Wrong what If you think there's a bug, file an issue or go look yourself. How you come to suspect of a bug is irrelevant.

[mastercoms]

This discussion is getting too heated and personal, so locking.

[wgetJane]

what is the consensus