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matortheeternal / smash

An application that provides a means of performing automatic conflict resolution between multiple Bethesda Plugin Files for TES and Fallout games.
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ESL support #164

Closed vensko closed 5 years ago

vensko commented 6 years ago

Mator Smash shows ESL files in the plugin selection window, yet ESL files are not shown in the main window afterwards. Would be nice to be able to smash ESL files as well, especially with possibility to enable a lot of them, what increases the chance of mod conflicts.

matortheeternal commented 6 years ago

ESLs will be removed from the plugin selection window in the next release.

Note that, because ESLs are loaded into load order slot 0xFE, they cannot be patched.

mlandstreet commented 6 years ago

Colin,

I have built what appear to be working patches for .esl files in FO4Edit. It seems that though they have the FE:xx indexing the game loads in this order:

Official .esm files

Mod .esm files

Official .esl files

Mod .esl files

.esp files.

Please correct me if I am wrong. As I recall I was reading a forum post by Zilav that was explain this and that was what made me experiment with it.

I know it seems completely wrong but it seems Bethesda is ignoring the numeric values of the .esl plugins in the sorting and loading of plugins.

Thanks,

Mason

From: Colin [mailto:notifications@github.com] Sent: April 16, 2018 20:40 To: matortheeternal/smash Cc: Subscribed Subject: Re: [matortheeternal/smash] ESL support (#164)

Closed #164 https://github.com/matortheeternal/smash/issues/164 .

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matortheeternal commented 6 years ago

Hi @mlandstreet, you may be correct. I'll look into supporting loading of ESL files once I have updated the xEdit codebase used by smash so ESL files can be loaded properly.

vensko commented 6 years ago

I just checked again, and yes, ESLs are perfectly patchable with ESPs, and they don't even have to be their masters.

Here is the corresponding issue for xEdit https://github.com/TES5Edit/TES5Edit/issues/455

vensko commented 6 years ago

As a workaround, we can use ESL-flagged ESPs https://github.com/Modorganizer2/modorganizer/issues/207#issuecomment-359518047

MS loads them fine, but building patches stops with the "Maximum load order reached!" message. Is this an artificial limitation in this particular operation? Can it be removed?

matortheeternal commented 6 years ago

MS loads them fine, but building patches stops with the "Maximum load order reached!" message. Is this an artificial limitation in this particular operation? Can it be removed?

The xEdit framework cannot have more than 255 active plugins at any given time. If building the smashed patch would cause there to be more than 255 plugins loaded then you need to load fewer plugins (possibly by merging plugins using my merge plugins utility).

PhoenixTheSage commented 6 years ago

Well, xEdit really should be updated to recognize ESPs that currently have the ESL flag as FE merge-types, like LOOT does...it's kinda late to the party. They are massively beneficial and starting to be used more widely.

matortheeternal commented 6 years ago

Well, xEdit really should be updated to recognize ESPs that currently have the ESL flag as FE merge-types, like LOOT does...it's kinda late to the party. They are massively beneficial and starting to be used more widely.

@PhoenixTheSage What xEdit does is a lot more in-depth compared to what LOOT does, so updating it to load ESLs in the FE slot is a bit more complicated. The entire xEdit framework has been built on the idea of the 255-plugin load order - it is absolutely not trivial to make ESLs load into the FE slot and keep the rest of xEdit's features intact.

PhoenixTheSage commented 6 years ago

I know :) I'm not using it as example for back-end. Just the front-end. It doesn't change the fact the support is going to have to be done. The community will sorta outrun the tool for a while until it does.

People are already converting dozens, to hundreds of mods, to ESP-FE and ESL.

matortheeternal commented 6 years ago

People are already converting dozens, to hundreds of mods, to ESP-FE and ESL.

Maybe they shouldn't. Maybe they should just merge plugins to stay below the 255-plugin limit and treat existing ESLs like ESPs. Suggesting that all of the tools have to change to meet a new workflow when an existing workflow is sufficient is a bit silly.

ChaoticTabris commented 6 years ago

Well... There are advantages to using ESPs flagged as ESLs. It's easier to update and there is less potential for incompatibilities and bugs. Not being entitled here and demanding this to be implemented as i'm perfectly fine using ESPs flagged as ESLs and patching them manually using SSEdit (Not activating more than 255 at a time) instead of merging hundreds of ESP files.

I guess this is a problem that will only really affect extreme users like me that tend to be WAAAAAY over the plugin limit so it's probably not a priority issue.

matortheeternal commented 6 years ago

I guess this is a problem that will only really affect extreme users like me that tend to be WAAAAAY over the plugin limit so it's probably not a priority issue.

There are many users who have managed to merge hundreds, if not thousands of plugin files successfully. I understand that using ESLs may seem easier, but the downsides greatly outweigh the benefits, in my eyes. You won't be able to use pretty much every tool I make (with some exceptions), and any tools which are built on libraries I develop or build off of the xEdit framework. This includes:

That's a lot to miss out on for "muh ESLs". But hey, you guys can do what you want. Just keep your ESL shenanigans away from me. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

ChaoticTabris commented 6 years ago

If you say so i guess i'll give merging another try. Maybe i'm being too cautious and could be doing bigger merges instead of several smaller ones.

matortheeternal commented 6 years ago

It turns out that zEdit can load >255 plugins now. So ESL workflow will actually be possible. :open_mouth:

PhoenixTheSage commented 6 years ago

Praise Talos...or Sheson, or Zilav, or Sharlikran, or you. Everyone really.

mtjohnson47 commented 5 years ago

Any updates on ESL? Has the project been abandoned?

matortheeternal commented 5 years ago

ESL support is no longer planned due to the 255 master limitation on plugin files.

CritLoren commented 5 years ago

ESL support is no longer planned due to the 255 master limitation on plugin files.

Why not circumvent that by splitting the smash into multiple files depending on the master count?

matortheeternal commented 5 years ago

Why not circumvent that by splitting the smash into multiple files depending on the master count?

Because in order for that to be effective, the multiple patches cannot conflict - so you need to find groups of plugins where the groups do not conflict with each other to patch.

Ultimately what I'm going to do is make an option which users can enable to "only add required masters" while patching. When users enable this, smash will add masters as necessary while it's patching, which will make it run ~50% slower. This will most likely end up happening in zSmash, the zEdit application mode I'm planning on making to replace Smash.

CritLoren commented 5 years ago

Thank you for the reply, I assume there is no ETA on the release of zSmash?

matortheeternal commented 5 years ago

I haven't even started developing it, but I am thinking about it on a regular basis and I'm excited to make it. I tend to be very optimistic with estimates on projects, so I'll just provide some facts and you can draw what conclusion you will:

BLACKBERREST3 commented 4 years ago

2020 progress update?

matortheeternal commented 4 years ago

@BLACKBERREST3 Mator Smash is no longer being developed, a replacement zSmash is being developed as an application mode for zEdit. I haven't been coding very actively on my projects for awhile, but started to get back into the swing of things over the last month.

BLACKBERREST3 commented 4 years ago

Happy to see you coding again, I love your work. I forget why I posted in a closed topic, tbh, I wasn't expecting a response now that I'm remembering XD. I was originally looking for recent posts you had made and couldn't find any at that time. I'm fairly new to modding and can't wait to get into patching/mod creation and I know I'm going to be using your tools to do so. Someday I'll be able to play skyrim with my 400 or so mods...someday. Until then I'll be reading up a storm. Thank you for responding btw, it's nice to know there are still awesome people active in the modding community.