Mozilla Location Service is retiring

[mar-v-in]

As was announced at https://github.com/mozilla/ichnaea/issues/2065, Mozilla will retire MLS soon. The final deadline for third parties seems to be set to June 12.

[bonswouar]

Especially if they are just cell towers. Those are not very accurate geolocation sources.

Very true, specially if like me your firmware/rom don't support neighboring cells.. Basically only wifi is really useful for me

[IzzySoft]

Agreed, OCID might not be ideal. And admitted, I have no idea how easy it would be to implement importing their DB even if creation is left to other tools. So I'm not pushing for it, just mentioning alternatives. Especially ones that work entirely offline, which some of us prefer.

[bege10]

When I took a quick look at the OpenCellID stats and their support forum about a week ago, seems like their db is not exactly free of the kinds of problems that MLS had the last few years either.

For example someone in Germany was complaining back in November or December that since 3G was shut down entirely in the country recently, there are now tens of thousands of tower records for decommissioned towers in Germany still in their db. ...

As a German user I was quite contented with the combination of GSM Location and Dejavu. Not perfect, but good. If I understand this post https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/2237#issuecomment-2094398511 correct it is possible to filter 3G cells out when accessing OCID. So the obsolete 3G cells shouldn't be a hindrance to use the database.

[IzzySoft]

it is possible to filter 3G cells out when accessing OCID

Looking at FastLacellsGenerator:

...
RADIO="GSM|UMTS|LTE"     #you can remove LTE if your phone does not support it
...
wget -qO- "https://download.unwiredlabs.com/ocid/downloads?token=${TOKEN}&file=cell_towers.csv.gz" | gunzip | egrep "^($RADIO),($MCC)," > $OCI_FILE || true
...

So yes, easily. Simply adjust RADIO in the config. Never thought of that myself (well, "set-and-forget" – I've only adjusted MCC when going on vacation). So @bege10, you'd say removing UMTS there generally? DE already has shut down UMTS (the US too IIRC), Austria is doing it this year. Switzerland will shut down 3G in 2025. Is there a list of countries still using it? Any country left (beside CH)?

[ArchangeGabriel]

Is there a list of countries still using it? Any country left (beside CH)?

France, at the very least. GSM will go off first, in 2025 or 2026 (operator dependent), and UMTS will follow only in 2028/2029 (the fact being 3G coverage is larger than 2G, so they decided 2G should be terminated first unlike in other countries).

[IzzySoft]

Oh funny. They cannot decide for ending daylight saving because of "summer or winter time", stating that must be a uniform scheme – but each country kicks out a different standard first so you don't know in which country you old device might work or not :see_no_evil: Thanks @ArchangeGabriel – so Switzerland, parts of Italy (at least one of the providers there), and France will still have 3G. And maybe some others…

[ale5000-git]

In Italy we have all 2G/3G/4G/5G together. I'm not sure for all operators but at least some have it.

[bege10]

So yes, easily. Simply adjust RADIO in the config. Never thought of that myself (well, "set-and-forget" – I've only adjusted MCC when going on vacation). So @bege10, you'd say removing UMTS there generally? DE already has shut down UMTS (the US too IIRC), Austria is doing it this year. Switzerland will shut down 3G in 2025. Is there a list of countries still using it? Any country left (beside CH)?

If microG will include the GSM Location functionality it should contain that filter additionally to country and provider. Users then can decide what they (don't) need.

[Iey4iej3]

So yes, easily. Simply adjust RADIO in the config. Never thought of that myself (well, "set-and-forget" – I've only adjusted MCC when going on vacation). So @bege10, you'd say removing UMTS there generally? DE already has shut down UMTS (the US too IIRC), Austria is doing it this year. Switzerland will shut down 3G in 2025. Is there a list of countries still using it? Any country left (beside CH)?

If microG will include the GSM Location functionality it should contain that filter additionally to country and provider. Users then can decide what they (don't) need.

I don't think that GSM location per se is filtering. Instead, the filtering happens when one downloads database.

[IzzySoft]

I don't think that GSM location per se is filtering. Instead, the filtering happens when one downloads database.

That's correct, see my comment above. The download always seems to have the full set. Though an API to filter at the source would be nice and help avoiding unneeded traffic :wink:

[Lcchy]

Is anyone using or has knowledge on the quality of this local Wifi db backend? Maybe it could be a temporary solution in combination with the OpenCellId db?

https://github.com/microg/UnifiedNlp/wiki/Backends#merged-wifi-unifiednlp-backend----f-droid--github--gitlab

[mar-v-in]

If you are using microG 0.3.2, you can configure https://api.positon.xyz/?key=74600654-2aec-11ef-aa95-3b7218da6865 as an API endpoint in microG Settings -> Location -> ⋮ -> Configure service URL.

[Sapiosenses]

If you are using microG 0.3.2, you can configure https://api.positon.xyz/?key=74600654-2aec-11ef-aa95-3b7218da6865 as an API endpoint in microG Settings -> Location -> ⋮ -> Configure service URL.

Hi Marvin,

I just wanted to clarify: is the hostname actually spelled "api.positon.xyz" or "api.position.xyz"?

Both hostnames are valid, tho "positon" responds to pings and "position" does not.

Thanks much.

[mar-v-in]

It's positon.xyz, as I wrote. I heard there might be a more reasonable website there in the future.

[Sapiosenses]

It's positon.xyz, as I wrote. I heard there might be a more reasonable website there in the future.

Thanks.

[Sapiosenses]

Initial test seems positive on my flox (Nexus7-2013 / LOS 18) device.

Showing blue circle (~100m estimated accuracy) in SatStat after a couple of minutes and "Network location" is populated with geocoordinates in the My Location utility.

So this new source URL does not require any switch apparently to enable like "Request from Mozilla", yes? Because those switches are currently off on my test device.

I trust we will be hearing more about this data source soon.

Thanks for your efforts on this.

[dylangerdaly]

What is this for? It's an API backed by Apple's NLP?

-------- Original Message -------- On 15/06/2024 8:59 am, Marvin W wrote:

If you are using microG 0.3.2, you can configure https://api.positon.xyz/?key=74600654-2aec-11ef-aa95-3b7218da6865 as an API endpoint in microG Settings -> Location -> ⋮ -> Configure service URL.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[mar-v-in]

It's a new network location API backwards compatible to Mozilla's Ichnaea /v1/geolocate API but allowing for aggressive local caching. Next version of microG will include extended caching functionality to make use of it and soon will also support to submit data to it, so the quality of the database is improved.

[IzzySoft]

and soon will also support to submit data to it

@mar-v-in if you'd let us know the end-point to submit data to, maybe we can already do that? TowerCollector (which I use frequently to feed OpenCellID) allows to define a custom URL for a custom MLS server. I gladly help you build up (as little as it might be), and others might do the same. (I still hope for a way to push the cell database itself to my device for a completely offline location service with microG – but maybe one thing at a time. Until then, I simply stay with the old version :wink:)

[ippocratis]

If you are using microG 0.3.2, you can configure https://api.positon.xyz/?key=74600654-2aec-11ef-aa95-3b7218da6865 as an API endpoint in microG Settings -> Location -> ⋮ -> Configure service URL.

What is the location provider in api.positon.xyz?

All I can see is an nginx 404 not found page

[lucasmz-dev]

Who hosts positon.xyz? Is there any place we can learn more?

[dylangerdaly]

I agree, I'd like to know more about this NLP.

Are we able to use Apple's NLP at all?

Is this infra hosted by microG? Location info is pretty serious to be sending off to some strange server somewhere.

In saying that, I do get a location much faster inside now...

[lucasmz-dev]

@IzzySoft There's also NeoStumbler on F-Droid :wink: It does Wi-Fi and Bluetooth instead of just cellular networks. That's what I've started using.

[IzzySoft]

@lucasmz-dev I know (and it's also in the IzzyOnDroid repo which I maintain). But TowerCollector doubles as GPX tracker :wink: And I prefer a location provider that works entirely offline. Which is why I'm still on an older release of microG where I can use my local database – which until recently was fed by OpenCellID and MLS.

Which brings me to the question: can the full database be downloaded from this new server the same way as one could download it from MLS before?

[joelkoen]

I'm working on beaconDB and am experimenting with different ways to publish the data while protecting the privacy of AP/bluetooth device owners

[lucasmz-dev]

I see you did the thing of hashing stuff I mentioned as an idea ... Does it support that from like, a client standpoint, if a client chooses to? Or does only the server deal with that?

Despite me getting annoyed in that discussion and it turning into a shit show, I actually also appreciate the idea of a form of local database; being offline is nice, it solves quite a few issues. And I suppose a more private database has a benefit there.

[joelkoen]

At the moment I'm still collecting data to analyse, and I haven't exposed any endpoints for the client to work with as its all pretty unstable and subject to change. I need to update the README as I'm no longer just hashing the SSID + MAC as that doesn't stop people stalking devices they already know the SSID+MAC of.

I'm playing around with truncating hashes to cause collisions on purpose, meaning that one device does not map to a single, exact location. Instead, multiple devices share multiple possible locations and the client needs to know multiple nearby devices in order to estimate an accurate location. This helps prevent any kind of tracking or stalking.

I've also got the server adding a random offset to the location stored in the database, making it even more difficult to extract any useful information. code for that

[dylangerdaly]

Can anyone provide a link to more information about local caching based NLP? I'd like to understand it better, from what I understand microG locally stores BSSIDs/RSSI and location from local GPS?

This db can then be exported to a larger server? Sounds like a good opportunity to create what Mozilla should have.

[Sapiosenses]

Sounds like a good opportunity to create what Mozilla should have.

The Mozilla db was pretty good until 2 things happened:

1: They got sued by a stupid commercial company (recently acquired by Qualcomm) which got its start basically filing boatloads of patents for what amounted to wardriving that individuals first innovated and then gave away

2: Mozilla pulled the code out of mobile Firefox (probably due to the lawsuit/settlement) that used to use all the mobile devices that had FF installed to contribute data back to their db. That's when the db started to go stale. (Several years ago)

Several such patent behemoths remain a threat to even a FOSS network location provider so it's a minefield now.

[EchedelleLR]

I'm working on beaconDB and am experimenting with different ways to publish the data while protecting the privacy of AP/bluetooth device owners

It will have support for cell towers either?

EDITED: author replied yes in the own repository and I tested it.

[iFish85]

If you are using microG 0.3.2, you can configure https://api.positon.xyz/?key=74600654-2aec-11ef-aa95-3b7218da6865 as an API endpoint in microG Settings -> Location -> ⋮ -> Configure service URL.

Hi, can this URL still work?

[mar-v-in]

Hi, can this URL still work?

Yes.

[iFish85]

Hi, can this URL still work?

Yes.

Looks like it cannot work at China mainland... -_-

[mar-v-in]

I checked back with them and they confirmed China Mainland is indeed not supported. Sorry for that.

[EchedelleLR]

@mar-v-in does BeaconDB work for you?

[mar-v-in]

I haven't tried, but I assume it should work. It likely doesn't have data for your region yet, so you'd first need to use NeoStumbler or a similar tool to submit data, before you can use it to locate yourself.

[Sapiosenses]

I checked back with them and they confirmed China Mainland is indeed not supported. Sorry for that.

I sure would like to know more about this service. Their website is rather "fuzzy" about the background of it.

Strange that they would exclude the largest internet user base in the world like that.

But there are a couple of UNLP backends for the old architecture specifically targeting Chinese users: AMap and Baidu. (Available on IzzyOnDroid)

Perhaps that functionality can be an option for people in those parts of the world in the future.

[Mikaela]

I think the exclusion of China comes from their legislation.

• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China

[joelkoen]

Did MLS have data for China?

[Hoerli1337]

@mar-v-in does BeaconDB work for you?

It works fine for me :)

[Sapiosenses]

I think the exclusion of China comes from their legislation.

I wondered about that.

However the 2 prior UNLP backends I mentioned above apparently use public domestic Chinese geolocation data sources. Which suggests to me that offering such services would not necessarily be in violation of the local rules, since I would think that those sources have already passed governmental scrutiny.

[EchedelleLR]

UNLP backends are not supported anymore by microG in new versions so I guess it won't work.

[PistachioGuy]

GrapeneOs recently released this article on positon, thoughts? https://grapheneos.org/articles/positon-location-service I'm not saying I agree with the article, I don't know enough about this.

[petefoth]

GrapeneOs recently released this article on positon, thoughts?

It's written by someone who - for some reason - has an intense (and IMHO irrational) to /e/OS, the /e/ Foundation and, seemingly anyone who, like the microG project, have anything to do with /e/. IMHO, the article is FUD and can be pretty much discounted

[Sapiosenses]

I'll just follow to Pete's comment that while the individual in question has a long history of slandering people and FOSS projects for little to no reason I am not exactly a fan of /e/'s track record when it comes to running secure and reliable public servers either.

And there may be some legitimate privacy issues in their implementation which might be useful to look at but after making that criticism he criticizes them for caring about a different privacy matter that he thinks is not an issue.

Personally I have pretty good faith that Marvin can tell the difference between a privacy-preserving and non-privacy-preserving service so if a particular service meets his expectations in that regard I will respect that.

[mar-v-in]

For all I know /e/OS is not involved with Positon at all. I'm in contact with both and both of them told me that they don't work with each other.

/e/OS set up their own, independent network location service roughly at the same time that Positon started, so building two network location services at the same time would've been an insane waste of their limited resources.

Regarding their privacy: They do have an easy-to-read policy on their website: https://positon.xyz/docs/privacy/. To me it sounds perfectly reasonable. With respect to future plans of Positon, the claims made don't match at all what I heard from them and as I know one of them personally, I have no reason to doubt what they tell me.

[bege10]

If you are using microG 0.3.2, you can configure https://api.positon.xyz/?key=74600654-2aec-11ef-aa95-3b7218da6865 as an API endpoint in microG Settings -> Location -> ⋮ -> Configure service URL.

At https://positon.xyz/docs/getting-started/ the URL is https://api.positon.xyz/v1/geolocate?key=[API-key] Has it changed or do both URLs work?

[EchedelleLR]

Will microG get integrated offering both providers (BeaconDB and Position) as options or just one of them?

Is submission of data thought?

[LuccoJ]

@EchedelleLR note that data submission is already possible for BeaconDB using NeoStumbler or Tower Collector. Not sure whether it would fit within microG's scope to feature submission itself.

[Sapiosenses]

Is submission of data thought?

Yes this is in the plans. It will be optional.

I do not know for which service, or if multiple services will be supported yet.