Mouse without borders

[Dr-Flay]

I see the MS Garage project "Mouse without borders" is not here in github. I think this is in every way an essential PowerToy for people with multiple Windows systems. Maybe it could also serve as a solution to another request for multiple mouse support.

[cowens]

Even better, add multi-OS support. Synergy is showing it's age and Logitech's solution is pretty bad to.

[CaryRW]

I completely agree. I use Mouse without Borders every single day. An outstanding utility, but would be amazing with MacOS support. I hate Mac's, but must have one for testing purposes. I do use Logitech's solution, but to say it is "pretty bad" is an understatement of epic proportions. It's time for MWB to take it to the next level. PLEASE!!!

[BubiBalboa]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this idea.

MWB desperately needs some development and better communication and this would be the perfect place for both.

Thoughts, @indierawk2k2 ?

[TonyGravagno]

+1 Came here for the exact same reason. Please FOSS MWB.

[mbrittenham]

This absolutely needs to be built as a PowerToy. This is a key tool for my day to day work.

[studleylee]

Mouse without borders source would be awesome. I came here wondering about its security: encryption or anti-ease-dropping features. It's important with all the homework via vpn and this covid craziness. Thanks for all the work you all do!!!

[mdkiefer]

I would also like to see this open-sourced. I'd like to contribute to fix a bug when I have mixed-resolution displays.

[MOrlassino]

I agree! Adding Mouse without Boarders to the Microsoft PowerToy applications would be a welcome addition. Being bundled with PowerToys and open sourced would help with it's discovery by those who don't know it's usefulness and allow it to be extended/enhanced. Also, how awesome would it be to use it with a companion Windows 10 on ARM device or the Windows Duo? Microsoft Garage Mouse without Borders

[BubiBalboa]

It's pretty discouraging that none of the active collaborators has bothered to comment on this issue.

[crutkas]

We have been pretty transparent on the v1 roadmap. This is something we haven’t had time to investigate.

is the primary ask to make it xplat? Or just OSS it?

[BubiBalboa]

I just thought someone would at least say anything. It's so quiet around MWB that I thought this topic is being avoided intentionally.

For me open sourcing it -in whatever way- would be the most important part. Right now there is no visible development happening despite lots of little bugs and feature requests and no communication either. The poor people are screaming into the void in the support thread.

So however this situation can be fixed would be fine by me. I just thought that it would be the perfect candidate for open sourcing. If as part of PowerToys or as its own project isn't important. People just bring it up here because it would be a good fit and they have a chance of getting heard.

[mdkiefer]

I agree that open-sourcing it it be the most important part. That way if someone wants to make it cross-platform they can contribute to do so. Whether it is part of of PowerToys or not is unimportant. Unfortunately, the support thread for Mouse without Borders on the Microsoft Garage site has been less than helpful for getting any direction.

[crutkas]

open sourcing stuff that wasn't developed with OSS in mind takes time and discussions. how stuff is supported / tested gets very interesting as well. More so with something like MWB due to what it is.

[BubiBalboa]

I don't think anybody expects you to just throw the code on GitHub tomorrow but it's still good to set the right expectations just in case.

Would be nice if you guys could update this thread from time to time if there's movement behind the scenes. It's been so quiet around MWB that any new info is highly appreciated. Thank you!

[Jay-o-Way]

https://youtu.be/D9u1vX-pvLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EozeSDeV3Vo

[Dr-Flay]

I'll tell you why I posted this. I don't want to see MWB languish as an abandoned project like so many others (Pro Photo Tools, Bing Virtual Earth) from the experimental side of MS. By making it OSS it can be maintained indefinitely,

If this functionality was simply integrated into Windows as it should be MS would be forced to maintain it and any security problems that come up, but as a MS Garage app it is disposable, and at best we would get a warning not to use it anymore.

I understand the program was not originally intended to be OSS, but as it was also intended to be not supported anyway, MS and the authors can only gain from this change, as will those who want to keep using it in the future.

[riverar]

What are the use cases for Mouse without Borders?

[theS1LV3R]

What are the use cases for Mouse without Borders?

I think the website describes it pretty well:

Would you want to have an incredible mouse that can seamlessly move from one machine to another? Would you want to get rid of the KVM and be more productive working with multiple machines?

Mouse without Borders is a product that makes you the captain of your computer fleet by allowing you to control up to four computers from a single mouse and keyboard. This means that with Mouse without Borders you can copy text or drag and drop files across computers.

[riverar]

No, that website describes how the software works. I'm looking for how people are using the software today, to understand what problems Mouse without Borders solves, why it should be considered as a new PowerToys feature, etc. (To be honest, I'm not sold this feature is needed.)

[mbrittenham]

The use case for me is very specific. I have multiple machines on my desk. Desktop, Surface Book, other laptops, etc. They are all connected to different monitors. However, I don't have the desk space for the requisite mouse/keyboard combinations to deal with them all nor do I want to think about which one I'm using. I move the mouse as if it were one machine connected to multiple monitors and no other thinking is required. That, in my opinion, is the core daily driver use case and applies to an all Windows environment. I'm looking for MWB to be OSS and integrated into PoweToys for the continuity of support and roadmap. Right now I'm just living in fear of a breaking change in Windows 10 with no support or path to a fix.

[riverar]

@mbrittenham So for my understanding, you have several monitors, each one (or more) dedicated to other Windows devices, in front of you, right? What are you doing across these devices that necessitates the constant back and forth? What about RDP/VNC? I'm guessing a physical KVM was ruled out due to frequency of switching, is that right?

[watermarkhu]

@riverar I have a desktop with two monitors from which I work at home and another laptop that I took to the office (when that was still the case). In some cases, two monitors is not enough. While I could buy a third monitor for these cases, more often than not I just take out my laptop. Mouse and keyboard across these two computers makes this workflow seamless.

[mbrittenham]

@riverar yes, I need to see multiple displays so a KVM won't work and the need to switch is problematic. RDP also requires me to view everything on one machine. This affords me the seamless experience while having multiple machines for the added computing power and redundancy. I may have Teams up on two machines or the same with any of the office apps. I've had Premiere Pro editing and rendering on one system while working email on another and I don't have to context switch anything, even mentally, to go back and forth. However I don't pay a resource tax in my email while rendering video. At the same time I can see all systems simultaneously so if I were to have a monitoring dashboard or some other portal open I can keep it in view which isn't viable with a KVM or RDP session.

[mbrittenham]

I also previously used the shared clipboard feature heavily but with cloud clipboard available in windows that's become less of a feature for me. Locking all systems simultaneously is nice as is unlocking all though for unlocking Windows Hello face recognition has eliminated the need for that.

[studleylee]

In many hardware development scenarios it's better to have a dedicated machine to the hardware under development, and a machine to deal with other generic business tasks like email, conferencing, and writing. Mouse-wo-borders allows me to cut and paste code into emails and not have to switch to a 2nd mouse constantly. I have monitors dedicated to each, I open up data sheets, schematics, terminals and on both machines.

[dpkano]

@riverar, I endorse @watermarkhu use case. And I think this became a more common scenario with people working from home with their personal and work devices. The Mouse Without Borders make this integration really seamless (If you're on windows only) and for me, that makes sense to be integrated with the power toys...

[studleylee]

@dpKano Agreed Exactly! My only worry is security. Not sure the level used.

[BubiBalboa]

My use case:

I have a daily driver notebook which I use for work and everyday browsing and a media PC which is connected to my TV. I can easily control the media PC from my laptop by simply pointing the cursor to the HTPC's desktop. No second mouse or keyboard needed. I love how fast and seamless it is.

[mdkiefer]

My use case is similar to others mentioned. I have 2 laptops at my desk: 1 dedicated for personal use, 1 dedicated for work use. Each has 2 or 3 dedicated monitors attached. I use a single keyboard and mouse seamlessly which not only saves me desk space but also having to physically move my hands between the two. Copy/paste of at least text is essential because I often do research from my personal computer which doesn't have the browsing restrictions and always-on VPN requirements as my work computer.

My only issue is that my work computer doesn't allow inbound connections from my personal computer so I have to initiate connections from my work computer to my personal one. Occasionally the link gets dropped and I have to manually switch to my work laptop keyboard and touchpad (uncomfortable and out of the way) to re-establish the connection. It would be nice if Mouse Without Borders could be set to automatically reconnect outbound from a specific computer when a connection gets dropped.

On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 7:44 PM BubiBalboa notifications@github.com wrote:

My use case:

I have a daily driver notebook which I use for work and everyday browsing and a media PC which is connected to my TV. I can easily control the media PC from my laptop by simply pointing the cursor to the HTPC's desktop. No second mouse or keyboard needed. I love how fast and seamless it is.

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[Dr-Flay]

I have 2 laptops and an old tower connected, all have 2 screens, giving me 6 in total being used at the same time, all in the same room with 3 keyboards and mice. All with different versions of Windows, and anyone in this position knows how much of a pain it is to get them to communicate properly and reliably in both directions on the network. Unless I install a dedicated tool they all have that does not care what version of Windows I use, this is where MWB or a non MS RDP solution comes in.

RDP is not needed and total overkill if I am looking at the screens already. All I need is for my pointer to move to the other screens so I can interact with them. I don't need or want to see the screens on the other machines via the machine I am sat at.

It gives me a shared clipboard across the different versions of Windows. If I want to transfer lots of files I do it via the network and leave it copying, but if I just want that 1 file I am working on right this second to be on another machine, all I have to do is move the mouse to the PC I want to work on and drop it there.

If all I want to do is click on next track in WACUP or change its volume, I shouldn't have to fire up a dedicated remote session just to literally save me the bother of walking across the room to do 1 mouse click then go back to my work PC.

MWB is a simple tool and it does not do much, but what it does do is increase ease of use of a "home command-centre" and work productivity by a huge factor.

It even saves on USB sockets so you can connect other more important devices.

I think I speak on behalf of most people in this thread when I say, Install it yourself at home in a room with multiple PCs and use it for 1 week, then switch it off and see how long before you realise this should have been a basic feature of Windows for many years and living without it is not a viable option in the year 2020. Having multiple PCs in the same room and not being able to use them as if they were 1 PC with lots of screens, seems like the stone-age for those of us using MWB.

Think "Universal remote control for PCs" "One mouse to find them, one mouse to bind them all"

[BubiBalboa]

Another use case I just remembered:

I know of quite a few Twitch streamers who use MWB to control their streaming setups. Often they have one gaming PC that runs the games they play and one streaming PC which handles the game capture and broadcast via OBS.

Having only one mouse and keyboard makes a lot of sense in this scenario and this use case isn't exactly a niche thing anymore.

[mbrittenham]

I would also say that MWB could be simplified by removing features that don't really align to what I would view as it's "Primary function". The clipboard sharing for example. Simplify it to its core functions as a PowerToy.

[studleylee]

The Clipboard sharing is one of the best features.

[BubiBalboa]

Clipboard sharing now integrated in Windows 10 so it's not really needed anymore in MWB. And it would probably be easier to focus on the core feature.

[studleylee]

"Clipboard sharing now integrated in Windows 10 so it's not really needed anymore in MWB. A" If you want your stuff shared on a cloud via microsoft account to other win10 devices only.

[Dr-Flay]

Clipboard sharing now integrated in Windows 10 so it's not really needed anymore in MWB. And it would probably be easier to focus on the core feature.

That does not help users with different versions of Windows. I would say that if it were to be a Win 10 only feature we don't need a powertoy, we just need the OS to do it natively. At that point I abandon the feature and look for a 3rd party option that works for all, and does what the users want.

As for the cloud based clipboard, well that's just fine and dandy if you are connected to the internet, but when on an isolated setup you need local communication directly between the machines in use. Pushing and pulling my clipboad contents over 1000s of miles to copy 1 URL or a password etc. Is that supposed to be a joke ?

[mdkiefer]

But what about the scenario where one MUST use different Microsoft accounts on different Windows 10 machines? I'm assuming this would be problematic to use cloud based clipboard sharing.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2020, 3:01 PM Doc Flay notifications@github.com wrote:

Clipboard sharing now integrated in Windows 10 so it's not really needed anymore in MWB. And it would probably be easier to focus on the core feature.

That does not help users with different versions of Windows. I would say that if it were to be a Win 10 only feature we don't need a powertoy, we just need the OS to do it natively.

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[BubiBalboa]

Look, I don't disagree but I think we should focus on the core feature here to have a better chance of MWB making it into the PowerToys toolkit.

There's already at least one active FOSS project for clipboard sharing named Ditto so I don't think this feature necessarily needs to be part of PowerToys. If they want to do it, fine by me. But please let's focus on the main feature which is the software KVM.

[studleylee]

No it's not KVM (KM), buying kvm hw or sw based is easy. They are not asking to strike features. The world doesn't revolve around your particular use case or opinion. Or mine.

[grumphus]

No, that website describes how the software works. I'm looking for how people are using the software today, to understand what problems Mouse without Borders solves, why it should be considered as a new PowerToys feature, etc. (To be honest, I'm not sold this feature is needed.) I've been using Mouse without Borders for years.

For me, the best use case is if you want a multi-monitor setup but don't have the RAM to handle all the multitasking. Like if I have an 8 GB desktop and a 4 GB notebook, I can offload some of the lighter apps to the notebook.

Also good for mobile setups. Like I can take a Surface Go with me to the office and use it with any laptop or desktop there and have a second screen.

Would love to see it integrated with PowerToys in a sleeker package.

[micahp2]

Just to add to the IRL use cases on this: I have two different computers (one a home desktop, the other a work laptop) that are separated by group policy and IT security rules. Although they physically sit within inches of each other, I must maintain separate keyboards, mice, and even a USB flash drive to take any work from one to the other. While running on the local network with MWB, however, both machines act as one, making it super simple to quickly control whichever PC is needed at the moment without hassling with different input devices. My IT department is never going to allow me to open up the ports on the laptop, so using MWB to quickly do the tasks I need there, then return to my desktop is really the only way to go.

[jolsen71]

I came here today intending to creating a ticket to ask for this feature, to pleasantly find it has already been asked for.

I will often have more than one machine on my desk, usually my main machine and the others are laptops. It is comfortable using my workstation keyboard and mouse in front me with my main workstation, but it is not comfortable to lean over or twist to use the laptop keyboard, and I much prefer mice over trackpads.

So I can be working on my main machine, and installing software on the other. When a prompt pops up, or requires me to enter something, or another process needs to be started, all I have to is move my mouse cursor over and click or type and move it back to my main screen when I'm done. Since these are generally short-lived processes, I am constantly jumping back and forth between the machines, and MWB is handy enough that I bother to set it up every time I need to work on multiple computers at once.

It is also super handy to be able to drag files between the computers without having to set up shared folders, and the clipboard sharing is also super convenient. Having one tool to do all these things is wonderful.

VNC or Remote Desktop aren't optimal alternatives, because then you have one more window to shuffle. Using MWB is nicer, like using an additional external monitor is nicer.

I would like to see it made into a Power Toy because MWB was last updated in 2018 and could use some polish and enhancements. If it were OSS, it would open the possibility for other to contribute said polish and enhancements.

I'd like to see support added for dragging more than one file at a time (it is currently limited to a single file).

[priprii]

I'd just like for this to be OSS to learn from how the mouse events are being shared. I've been developing a similar application (for personal use) that has the same functionality (share mouse/files/clipboard) in addition to screen sharing the desktop or specific windows which can be interacted with on the client side. But my method of sending mouse events doesn't seem to support interacting with system level applications and receiving mouse position isn't smooth.

[gregsedwards]

We have been pretty transparent on the v1 roadmap. This is something we haven’t had time to investigate.

is the primary ask to make it xplat? Or just OSS it?

I think it works pretty well in its current state. For me the key would be incorporating it into PowerToys, so it doesn't require a separate install. That said, it does have a few bugs/needed improvements in its current form:

• Needs high DPI support
• Better arrangement of desktops (more like Synergy, support for multi-display setups on each device)
• Smoother fine control
• Ability to sync using account instead of relying on shared keys
• Support for devices that might not be on the same physical network

I would wholeheartedly support bringing MWB into PowerToys. Seems like a natural fit to me. Thanks!

[azariah001]

My use case is that I have a company provided workstation that I do the majority of my work on but I also have a BYO surface that I've been using for remote work and the like ever since March. It's now integrated into my workflow such that I use it's keyboard and a bluetooth connected mouse to control the surface and my workstation. I was using Synergy but it was buggy af so I moved to mouse without borders. I have powertoys on both devices and would love to have the level of functionality and customizability that comes with the other powertoys modules for MWB.

Also, I have an issue with my logitech mouses side scroll wheel not being passed through to the workstation at all. Would love to be able to contribute the fix but... MWB is not opensource. I think most people in this thread would love to just see MWB released as OSS but they also see PowerToys as the fastest route to accomplishing it as it has a more flexible settings implementation.

[schollii]

Has anyone from MS explained what issues would need to be addressed before it could be open sourced? Presumably licensing/copyright related? Can't think of what else there would be, unless MS is thinking of selling it separately.

[Dr-Chronosphere]

I came here to suggest the feature as well... MWB is truly a godsend for using multiple devices as if they were one, and can even be used to have a multi-monitor setup with a laptop and desktop being combined together with common input devices. I've always thought that the current Mouse without Borders is in need of a GUI refresh and the PowerToys package would be the perfect place to finally open source the application.

[crutkas]

Open sourcing code isn’t as easy as “copy and upload”. any code brought into PowerToys also then becomes our job to maintain and support it. Right now we are stabilizing our current core. This will allow us to then quickly bring other apps in. We also need to stabilize video conference mute utility.

[schollii]

So does anyone know for a fact that the code is still available and complete, so once this stabilization occurs it will be a matter of creating LICENSE.txt file, uploading it to github in an unbuildable state, then converting the GUI to use the powertoys library and build system?

[crutkas]

@schollii, open source isn't throwing some bit of code over the wall. Before the base is made open source, an audit needs to be done to review the state of the code and what needs to be addressed prior to being released. Our team is focused on getting the existing set stable.

We hear everyone's request here but as of now, I have nothing more to share publicly.