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minetest / minetest_game

Minetest Game - A lightweight and well-maintained base for modding [https://github.com/minetest/minetest/]
http://minetest.net/
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rename MTG to something less confusing #3068

Closed FatalError42O closed 2 months ago

FatalError42O commented 1 year ago

Problem

Tons of people are introduced to Minetest on regular basis- most of the time they're confused by the difference between Minetest Game and Minetest, mainly because (and this is a real shocker) it's a bad name.

Newcomers think that this is all there is to Minetest, but MTG has essentially zero content- it's not even a game let alone what should represent Minetest. It's bad enough that it ships with Minetest, but it certainly shouldn't be called what it is now. I'm tired of having to explain to people that there's a difference between "Minetest" and "Minetest Game"! And I'm sure we've lost hundreds of potential players who just think this is a lame Minecraft clone and not a modding community.

Potential names

here's a few potential name ideas I threw together (really fast) that'd be probably better then what we have now for the sake of clarity:

if you have (likely much better) suggestions, leave it in the comment of this issue/discussion and I'll add it to the list

Alternatives

even if we don't rename it, something has to be done for clarity. Maybe a message when you make a new world with MTG that tells you "there's more to Minetest, Minetest Game is just a template" or something like that. There has to be a better way then this. Or maybe even just stop shipping MTG with minetest, seeing as it is a TEMPLATE for a game more then anything.

tenplus1 commented 1 year ago

I'm all for displaying a message when starting a new world letting the player know that the Content tab exists to add mods into your game.

sfan5 commented 1 year ago

I think this confusion would be pretty much fixed when MTG is no longer pre-installed (#13550).

alternatively see minetest/minetest_game#3034

Zughy commented 1 year ago

I can call something "Red chair" and then say in the description that is a red table, but that doesn't prevent people from thinking it's a chair. This is especially true if people read the name first and try my "product" later. I agree with OP, something like "Modding base" is better. See also https://content.minetest.net/threads/244/

lhofhansl commented 1 year ago

"Minetest Sandbox" or just "Sandbox"?

Desour commented 1 year ago

For networking reasons, here's another issue wanting to rename mtg: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2077

Emojigit commented 1 year ago

Or maybe ModTest Game? Hence, we still keep the abbreviation "MTG" while emphasizing the goal of MTG as a modding base.

jeremyshannon commented 1 year ago

Could just call it MTG, it worked for Kentucky Fried Chicken -> KFC.

Zughy commented 1 year ago

How about "Legacy", stating in the description that it was the first form MT knew and that remains the biggest modding base nowadays?

Desour commented 1 year ago

I like how the abbreviation of Minetest Legacy, MTL, could stand for Minetest Lame. >:D

mckaygerhard commented 1 year ago

someone proposed "mycraft" but for the engine, maybe is best for the game and engine just being like any other interface..

hlqkj commented 12 months ago

All this “rename everything” thing is causing will cause more confusion than what we already have…

I bet everyone who tried minetest and enjoyed it has got a full understanding of it in a day or two; do we really need to throw a decade-long history and conventions away for nothing? Does this really solves some actual problem? (Just my opinion.)

Next to come:

mckaygerhard commented 12 months ago
  • Rename default to base then hardcode an alias in the engine, to make unmaintained mods happy.

seem a good idea.. backguard compatibility like to gamers.. but not to coders (those that do not play games so much)

  • Rename all Linux distros to something including XP, or Pro or SP3 so we’ll grab more attention from Windows users.

M$ and many companies do this kind of movements .. as a trick to trick the user and give them something they already have, in this case we use a crap product like windo and offer linux

multicraft DO THE SAME, and seems work and if you take it with care @hlqkj seems ther is more behind all of this movement and confusions

do we really need to throw a decade-long history and conventions away for nothing?

oh men obviously yeah.. is a fast way to close the 1234 issues in the engine unresolved

Does this really solves some actual problem? (Just my opinion.)

as i write .. yeah ..

hlqkj commented 12 months ago

multicraft DO THE SAME

Let me just mention that MultiCraft calls it’s default game “MultiCraft Game”.

But anyways… Why Minetest should care about what MultiCraft does? Seems we recently moved from “look at how Minecraft does this” to the same, but with MineCraft. :)

Zughy commented 12 months ago

Does this really solves some actual problem?

Yes it does: I've been bringing Minetest to conventions for months and people are confused every time, thinking that it's some sort of Minecraft alpha/beta. We're living under the shadow of Minecraft, people think that MTG is Minetest as they see Minetest as Minecraft, as a game. And that's a huge problem

I bet everyone who tried minetest and enjoyed it has got a full understanding of it in a day or two

According to the aforementioned conventions, it's a pretty bad bet

hlqkj commented 12 months ago

Yes it does

Your saying. It actually doesn't! Go ahead and rename Minetest to "Voxelbeauty" and MTG to "MeseTest" or whatever. You'll still have to explain people that one is an engine, the other is a game.

Better design of the main menu, having a content DB since day zero and NOT pre-bundling MTG would have made things clear, it never had to do with names.

According to the aforementioned conventions, it's a pretty bad bet

According to the people you've talked to.

Minetest always had a huge amount of problems, but its name. And the same people who contributed spreading those problems with their poor roadmap decisions are still sitting there, now blaming bad branding.

So, a disheartening download/install experience; the lack of good games; the lack of an easy way to install games/mods; the lack of a mods and games audit team, preventing disastrously-written mods like mobs_redo from becoming standards, or having 15 different mods with the same name (and other mayhem I don't cite); a start menu which at the average player still looks like a 90s BIOS screen; roughly 50% of the tablets market left out because no, Apple not.

Really none of the abovementioned facts (which BTW are gradually getting solved recently) ever caused Minetest's fate? Or it's easier to blame users getting confused by trifles, instead of admitting they actually try the software and get p***d by the experience they get. It's All About The Name. You convinced me.

mckaygerhard commented 12 months ago

multicraft DO THE SAME

Let me just mention that MultiCraft calls it’s default game “MultiCraft Game”.

But anyways… Why Minetest should care about what MultiCraft does? Seems we recently moved from “look at how Minecraft does this” to the same, but with MineCraft. :)

if you visit such "multicraft game" repo it said that does not work.. XD in fact is not the default game included.. seems is a mineclone game lighty modified.. so nasty

mckaygerhard commented 12 months ago

@Zughy > > Does this really solves some actual problem?

NO! men, minecraft is FAR FAR WAYS much better in features .. only talking about the game per se..

Yes it does: I've been bringing Minetest to conventions for months and people are confused every time, thinking that it's some sort of Minecraft alpha/beta. We're living under the shadow of Minecraft, people think that MTG is Minetest as they see Minetest as Minecraft, as a game. And that's a huge problem

i like minetest much more.. but we must be realist! .. something i noted is that minecraft developers donst care code quality, development process etc etc.. just want to see X thing in game and that's all

of course that is something i dont like but is the most important when we talking about how of the battlefield is kind

so minetest is under minecraft shadow: YEAH due obvious reason! not due a little change of name!:

minecraft players when check and see all of those just think "oh for sure is an alpha version unfinished, the finished one have all of the leaked missing features and blackguard compatibility.. so just erase that "minetest" thing" people that play minecraft and minetest just take the differences so obvious

hlqkj commented 12 months ago

if you visit such "multicraft game" repo it said that does not work.. XD in fact is not the default game included.. seems is a mineclone game lighty modified.. so nasty

I can’t find what you mention in that repo. Is it an issue, or what?

Anyways, that’s what I’ve been saying all the time: the mistake has been to include MTG - not it’s name. See minetest/minetest#13550.

Zughy commented 11 months ago

You'll still have to explain people that one is an engine, the other is a game

if the couple MT - MTG is removed, there's no need really

According to the people you've talked to

I've hit something like 10 different conventions around Italy, talking to hundreds of different people that have never heard of Minetest. That's a better feedback than asking internally to the very MT community

And the same people who contributed spreading those problems with their poor roadmap decisions are still sitting there, now blaming bad branding

I don't understand if you're talking about me, since I'm the one who pushed for the roadmap (but choices are taken by everyone)

a disheartening download/install experience [...]

I agree with you, but this doesn't prevent us from fixing another (imo big) problem such the misleading name

any launcher of minecraft just offer ALL THE OLDER VERSIONS OF MINECRAFT, minetest by the contrary cutoff and always said "modern bla bla development evolution bla bla"

I agree that a proper launcher where you can choose MT version would be great. The second sentence is false though, we basically do the opposite

minecraft players can still connect to so much older or newer servers, minetest no

false, you can remain on an old version (0.4 is many years old, which is the breaking version). See the launcher thing above though

minecraft has build in all the necessary nodes to made a basic and complete game, minetest dont promote its default one

there should be no default one, as it's not a game but a modding base that MT staff has already agreed to remove (like devtest in previous releases)

hlqkj commented 11 months ago

if the couple MT - MTG is removed, there's no need really

I kindly disagree here. It hasn't been easy for me too at the beginning, to get what a game, a server and mods are. So, I could grant that having a completely different name not containing the word "Minetest" in it at all, could help clearing some confusion - I underline, could.

But this had to be done since the beginning... Right now, I think we can't count how many mods are based on MTG and how many servers actually run heavily modded MTG's and not custom games.

I think it's way more likely confusion will happen if we break this de-facto standard name, for a potential and feeble benefit in easing people who approach Minetest for the first time understand what MT is more quickly.

Hence, in the end, simply designing a better main menu experience (in progress, I think?) and adding an easy to read, clear, simple, concise intro about Minetest in general specifically aimed at new users will completely solve this, without touching names.

I've hit something like 10 different conventions around Italy, talking to hundreds of different people that have never heard of Minetest. That's a better feedback than asking internally to the very MT community

I'm sorry, I never had a chance to attend a convention about Minetest, so I actually can't judge on this topic. However, just ten conventions in a single country can't represent the world-wide Minetest community, moreover (as in my case) you also can't say if all the people attending are actual members of this community, or potential new members, or whatever else. I respectfully point out, that our opinions here and in the other Minetest' channels could just be considered a little more interested, than those from people who attended an event out of curiosity and will potentially not mess with Minetest ever again.

I don't understand if you're talking about me, since I'm the one who pushed for the roadmap (but choices are taken by everyone)

I am not talking about someone directly, of course, even less about you. As I said, many negativeness we are experiencing now descend from radicated things, and choices taken years ago, which turned out to be not so smart.

I'd just like to point out that things are slowly getting better (see for example all the topics I cited in my prev. comment: many are being addressed right now, others already have been). It may not be necessary to break things so hardly like a radical rebrand would do, even throwing history away. I may be a grouch, but seeing what came out in minetest/minetest#13510 I've got goosebumps!...

(Edit: grammar.)

mckaygerhard commented 11 months ago

any launcher of minecraft just offer ALL THE OLDER VERSIONS OF MINECRAFT, minetest by the contrary cutoff and always said "modern bla bla development evolution bla bla"

I agree that a proper launcher where you can choose MT version would be great. The second sentence is false though, we basically do the opposite

i cannot play with 0.4.16 neither with finalminetest neither with multicraft property across servers without user technical intervention!

and it seems 6.X will cut off support again! this does not happened in minecraft

minecraft players can still connect to so much older or newer servers, minetest no

false, you can remain on an old version (0.4 is many years old, which is the breaking version). See the launcher thing above though

is true: event multicraft cut off such support : https://github.com/MultiCraft/MultiCraft/commit/f2ca6a6ca5e9dfe7bda3630a1ae41a94f7d02125 that tracks minetest that already cut off anything for 0.4.16/0.4.17 ..

JT2 is a 0.4.16- most played server subnasa is a 0.4.17.1 most player server of the list

best servers just use 0.4.16 but most of them were cut off, i only play and use 0.4.16 cos are the only souces that compiles in my older devices and OS's

minecraft has build in all the necessary nodes to made a basic and complete game, minetest dont promote its default one

there should be no default one, as it's not a game but a modding base that MT staff has already agreed to remove (like devtest in previous releases)

this leat the problem that @hlqkj said.. people when instll only see a shelled thing without a game to play.. minecraft is ready to use.. and have all need build in!

rubenwardy commented 11 months ago

0.4.16 is 6 years old and has multiple known critical security vulnerabilities by this point, really not a good idea to continue using it. 5.8 has a huge number of improvements over 0.4

We have no plans to break network compatibility in 6.0, and I'd oppose doing that. Our plans are mostly related to issues with the modding API. See https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/breakages.md

Also, please keep this issue on-topic

rubenwardy commented 11 months ago

I want to point out that this issue is as well as improving the main menu and other things. We're already working on mainmenu improvements including a redesigned content store (#13820) and new user experience when it comes to downloading games (#13550, minetest/minetest#13818)

mckaygerhard commented 11 months ago

Member

that we are talking about a dictatorial procedure.. minetest always wil lbe a mess.. comment marked off topic and suppresed opinions..

hlqkj commented 11 months ago

We're going a little off-topic here - sorry for my part in it.

TL;DR: I don't support this.

Rationale: it would create more confusion within the existing community and codebase, than hypothetical benefits in the long-term. Other more incisive actions are being taken to address this, which will simplify and clear confusion about what is what -- see rubenwardy's comment.

GNUAn commented 2 months ago

Basetest is good name

appgurueu commented 2 months ago
  1. Since we are probably renaming Minetest eventually, this is most probably low-priority.
  2. MTG is in feature freeze, so a rename makes particularly little sense. It would just create unnecessary confusion: Usually a rename means you plan significant work or signifies a change in direction, neither of which is the case here.
  3. MTG has been debundled from MTE.
  4. This issue is controversial (look at the reactions and commentary).

In conclusion, a rename of MTG is not worth the hassle at all. Closing.