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minetest / serverlist

The global Minetest server list server
GNU Lesser General Public License v2.1
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Add server list rules #54

Open rubenwardy opened 1 year ago

rubenwardy commented 1 year ago

Should describe:

Shad-MOrdre commented 1 year ago

Could it also be possible to use the content rating system used by CDB. I forget the name but it is an EU standard, IIRC.

And you might want to qualify illegal. Not to bring up sensitive subjects, but some issues are illegal in certain jurisdictions. This might appease those in countries where less open ideas reign supreme.

rdnuk commented 1 year ago

Overall I agree that some moderation is needed but I do have some thoughts

I'll put more thought into this later but just quick thoughts at first glance.

rubenwardy commented 1 year ago

Illegal content would defined based on the jurisdiction of the serverlist, which is either Netherlands or Germany

rdnuk commented 1 year ago

Illegal content would defined based on the jurisdiction of the serverlist, which is either Netherlands or Germany

https://dutchreview.com/culture/weird-laws-the-netherlands/ <-- sorry... i had to google it 😂

Shad-MOrdre commented 1 year ago

While I get jurisdiction of serverlist, this is highly exclusive of the global audience. Some jurisdictions will ban MT. Regardless of our personal opinions about laws in those places, I would still rather not exclude.

Perhaps a nationality / language flag.

Also, asking server owners or even mod authors to self report is not an option. Mod names, like usernames, domain names and the like can easily be spoofed. For the "official" server list, it is not unrealistic to expect those that want to be listed to put their money where their mouth is. Vetted emails. rubenwardy, you run one of the most popular servers, very kid friendly. Everyone knows you here. The same for VanessaE's former servers. But you are also a trusted member of the core dev team.

Nothing prevents nefarious actors from hosting servers with spoofed mod names, while the content is illegal. They self reported a mod list that checked out, while no one looked at the actual code.

I am simply advocating for something that I feel is in all of our best interest in the long run.

ghost commented 1 year ago

https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25890&hilit=sammy+rating

ghost commented 1 year ago

No, I don't think there should be any censorship on the servers. Just a warning (optional).

Players should be what discern the good servers from the bad ones. They should not be treated as children or fools.

A better option would be to have the most popular ("safe") servers at the top.

rubenwardy commented 1 year ago

The point of mentioning the illegal bit is that it's most likely a legal requirement for us not to knowingly link to servers that are participating in illegal behaviour. I suppose we don't necessarily need to specify this in the rules

TumeniNodes commented 1 year ago

The point of mentioning the illegal bit is that it's most likely a legal requirement for us not to knowingly link to servers that are participating in illegal behaviour. I suppose we don't necessarily need to specify this in the rules

The only thing the project itself needs to be concerned with, is how legal aspects can implicate the project. Whomever is tied to the project directly, those involved with the billing end of hosting etc. are the ones who need to know, and probably are already aware of what they need to be doing / keeping up with as it is they who any of this impacts on a personal level, and the project itself.

I don't think it hurts to provide a reasonable explanation as to where these rules come from, and why, and how it links to the project. Maybe it will cause some to think a bit before jumping into the forums and lashing out, and having drama unfurl in a public setting. That sort of thing can sometimes bring a bad name to a project, and draw even more attention to trouble makers.

It may also be useful to seek some free legal advice regarding best ways to protect the project/people from having any accountability when it comes to servers, as those are owned by outside/3rd parties. If really need be, I'm willing to donate some finances to Celeron if any documents should be drawn up, or whomever is of the position in the project related to it.

There are legal groups involved in the FOSS community etc. I think it would be a good idea to start talking about these things with them to see how to best cover the interest of Minetest in these sort of situations. Up until recently, Minetest has been mostly "unkown", but with recent events and people hearing about it more in the big public sphere though popular youtube gamers etc. it's probably time to get a bit more serious about legalities and having protections in place as opposed to just kinda guessing or vague information, and keeping fingers crossed.

(I've updated this a lot, sorry)

Festus1965 commented 1 year ago

like always:

minetest itself is foss, free - for what people use it can't be controlled then

so for me, came to minetest FOR my daughter and her friends its far from legal or illegal if that vore server should be banned or not, in this case of reputation it has to be taken out

and then in the save position think about solutions ! but server is still in, threads are closed but the damage is taking its way in.

if a server is moderated, or is a good server - wow, that can't be measured and so can't be used for sorting

I just point of big sport companies like nike or addidas and read about under what circumstances some sport idols loos their contract as of some LEGAL but not to the sponsor fixing behavior.

it is your desicion to let vore server be listet, even

so not listing it is no damage to the server, listing this server is a damage to minetest and all kids servers

not listing that server gives you time to basically find a solution

solutions based on law can only work on the servers.minetest.net hosted country - anything else will not work

The main now important question is Does minetest (celeron) want Soon news that minetest supports adult stuff server read in the news ! That WILL happen for sure if that server keep listed.

Does servers.minetest.net want that connection ?

Does minetest want to see at google search after typing minetest automatic get options adult sex porn suggestions in the future ?

That is the main point NOW if you have not thought about legal and illegal in the last 5 years your are dreamer.

JasonTable commented 1 year ago

Keep in mind that someone will have to enforce the rules. Some kind of server reporting system would be a good way to alert moderators to a bad server. But just imagine the kind of reports you might get.

"hey on this anarchy server they are not flagged as sexual content but someone built a huge penis statue and the server admin refuses to remove it and the guy who built it keeps killing me so i cant grief it. so please get on the server and head out to -1337,69,420 to see it for yourself" (by the way this hypothetical server has no fast or fly perm for users) what would you even do in that situation? try to get on the server and go there? or just ignore it? but what if they are telling the truth? by ignoring it, you are allowing a server to contain sexual content without being properly labeled. well thats assuming that idea #55 is added too. but even if its not and sexual content is forbidden entirely, this problem still applies.

Festus1965 commented 1 year ago

JasonTable: perfect example of world wide different view to this: I read in US a teacher was fired as of using a normal roman statue with 'sleeping' penis in art ? So far I know in Germany only a erected penis is forbidden, but already waking naked in town is a problem Here in Thailand is a law, that you HAVE to ware at least underwear (but it is not mentioned that you can use it on the head, as mask or that it should not be from plastic and still let see everything)

but we don't have to find this border or rule ourself: where is the servers.minetest.net server = ah that was in / niear Paris in France

just look that law about linking to adult only webpages or services that is a first step to get easy closed to the case.

Or What will happen, if I am starting a lawsuit against the owner and admin of servers.minetest.net as of linking (listing) a adult server with NOT proper age protection !

Try to answer this question and you have the basic ! (as long servers.minetest.net is there)

rubenwardy commented 1 year ago

Festus, your behaviour is very toxic currently, please reconsider how you are coming across as it is undermining your point. It is counter productive, it turns the discussion from "how should we deal with mature content" to "how should we deal with festus". You are entitled to share your opinion but you are not entitled to make threats or otherwise flame. It is not permitted in this community. Consider this your final warning

Edited the illegal point as it seems everyone was getting stuck on that. It's a throwaway point in the list, not something we need to discuss

Festus1965 commented 1 year ago

haha, ok facts - but EVERYONE can do what I think I can or are able do

so far servers.minetest.net ping goes to Netherlands,

https://www.reuters.com/article/oukin-uk-dutch-pornography-idUKL2114716620070221 Virtual child porn may be a crime in Netherlands In the virtual world of Second Life, a popular Internet destination, everyone aged under 18 is supposed to be limited to a “teen grid”. However, it would be relatively easy for children to get on to the adult grid if they wished since there is no proof of age required. In the adult section, some users participate in “age play”, in which adult users can create child-like characters and have virtual sex that would be illegal in the real world.

more clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Europe#Netherlands Netherlands Main article: Pornography in the Netherlands

Article 240a indirectly prohibits giving pornographic pictures to children younger than 16 years. Maximum imprisonment is one year, or a fine of the 4th category (€19,500).[[33]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Europe#cite_note-33)
Article 240b prohibits child pornography, which is defined as a picture showing a person younger than 18 performing sexual acts. Maximum imprisonment is 4 years or a fine of the 5th category (€78,000). It also prohibits making a profession or habit of it. The maximum imprisonment in that case is 6 years or a fine of the 5th category (€78,000).[[34]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Europe#cite_note-34)
Article 248e prohibits online dating with minors (0–15 years old) in order to have sex or to make porn with them. The maximum imprisonment in that case is 2 years or a fine of the 4th category (€19,500).[[35]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Europe#cite_note-35)
Article 254a prohibits bestiality porn. Maximum imprisonment is 6 months or a fine of the 3rd category (€7,800).[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Europe#cite_note-36)

uuii, would be bad if we have to miss an core member between 6 month up to 4 years ...

but to France: 08.02.2023 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/02/06/france-force-pornography-viewers-prove-age-digital-certificate/ "France will become the first country to introduce a “digital certificate” for anyone seeking to view online pornography to prove they are not under age.

People wanting to visit pornography websites will have to install a government application on their mobile phones proving they are at least 18 years old as part of the plan announced by Jean-Noel Barrot, France’s digital minister.

Websites that do not comply with the order risk being banned from France."

That are just Facts - that you have to face - not me. If I am banned jsut of telling this facts - sure I will act - your choice what is the better option to do.

Shad-MOrdre commented 1 year ago

Let me also approach from a different angle.

In the officially published list, the one that is enable by default, when one first downloads and installs the game, and is unaware of any settings to change, the current state of the server list can prevent adoption of MT.

Open source software is very prevelant in educational settings. From universities to primary schools, and even research institutions like CERN, open source software, with it's free and open source code, almost drives learning.

Do any of us realistically believe that any of these institutions would want to be listed in the official list right next to any server whose name and/or description is vulgar, offensive, or just otherwise not professional?

A vetted official server list to help drive continued further adoption of Minetest. And, if sfan is up to it, a seperate, public server list for everyone, rated perhaps, but maybe not, since it's not enable by default.

Please, this is about keeping the official server list as professional appearing as possible, to drive further adoption of the software as a whole. No other argument about children need apply here. Simply keeping it professional, to drive further adoption.

Shad-MOrdre commented 1 year ago

Maybe reaching out to OSI or any of the open source supporters to perhaps host a more professional appearing official list.

Festus1965 commented 1 year ago

ok, here we come to :+1:

seen right : the server_announce have to be set default to false It must be clear that the admin WANT to share - active change = his/her will

second problem: that will NOT discharge the the responsible persons of servers.minetest.one to check ! sorry

So there will be sure a verification process, mean the servers admin has to check the main parameter (legal ?) and I fear have to recheck them time to time, if server can change their mind !

There could be a declaration of the server admin to keep the rules and inform admin or take server announce false if something change up to further clearance. Or have to renew the declaration every ... year, or automatic de listed.

Guys, I had all this problems between 1998 and 2006 with most lawyers from Netherlands during my fight against companies selling worthless goods to elderly persons. The basics should not have changed. One false word took me 3.000 Euro charge !

result : I understand now why minecraft has not such a list !

You have to go through the hole register system first to be sure you still want to list servers, then you can think about categories.

Festus1965 commented 1 year ago

this mean - as hard it sounds - to make the responsible admins save !

clear the full list ! now, (or you have to check all near 400 servers and single kick out if you see a problem)

set up several own empty, daily reset servers to show examples (5.8.0-dev, 5.7.0 stable, maybe 5.6.1 and one with 0,4,17.1) so that the list is not empty and people see the options the engine and game has (mtg only) and maybe the one with the 1 player teaching option.

and then go to the problems I listed above !

Your are safe and can think over all problems.

JasonTable commented 1 year ago

i made a pull request that adds this: #58