If no electrode positions are specified in the BIDS dataset metadata (electrodes.tsv), we should remove the montage upon loading the data

[hoechenberger]

The dataset mentioned in https://mne.discourse.group/t/mne-bids-pipeline-critical-error-digitisation-points/5376 is a BrainVision dataset with a [Coordinates] section in the vhdr file, specifying the electrode positions. The dataset doesn't come with an _electrodes.tsv to specify the electrode positions in a BIDS-specific way, though.

When the dataset was loaded with MNE-BIDS and visualized, a topomap could correctly be created because channel positions were taken from [Coordinates].

However, I think this is a mistake, as electrode positions must go into _electrodes.tsv.

The following not-so-short MWE demonstrates this problem:

• We load EEG data
• we set a montage
• we convert one EEG channel to mag to make MNE-BIDS believe it's an MEG dataset, so we an write this thing to a FIFF file. Here we abuse a bug (?) in MNE-BIDS: when writing M/EEG data, it doesn't create an _electrodes.tsv sidecar.
• We load the data again.
• Even though there was no _electrodes.tsv, the montage can be plotted – because the positions were taken from the info structure of the FIFF file.

# %%
from pathlib import Path
import mne
import mne_bids

# Load data & set a montage
ssvep_folder = mne.datasets.ssvep.data_path()
ssvep_data_raw_path = (ssvep_folder / 'sub-02' / 'ses-01' / 'eeg' /
                       'sub-02_ses-01_task-ssvep_eeg.vhdr')
ssvep_raw = mne.io.read_raw_brainvision(ssvep_data_raw_path, verbose=False)
ssvep_raw.set_montage('easycap-M1')

# Add a single MEG channel so we can save the data as a FIFF file in BIDS
ssvep_raw.set_channel_types({'PO10': 'mag'})

fname = Path('/tmp/sub-02_ses-01_task-ssvep_meg.fif')
ssvep_raw.save(fname, overwrite=True)
del ssvep_raw

# Create a BIDS dataset
raw = mne.io.read_raw(fname)
root = Path('/tmp/bids-test')
bp = mne_bids.BIDSPath(
    subject='02',
    session='01',
    task='ssvep',
    suffix='meg',
    extension='.fif',
    datatype='meg',
    root=root
)
mne_bids.write_raw_bids(
    raw=raw,
    bids_path=bp,
    overwrite=True,
)

# Load the data again
raw_loaded = mne_bids.read_raw_bids(bp)

# We do have a montage
raw_loaded.get_montage().plot()

My proposal is to call raw.set_montage(None) upon loading data. If we have electrode positions in BIDS metadata, we can subsequently add them; but if we don't have any, we should get rid of the positions stored in the original data without a representation in the metadata.

[sappelhoff]

agreed! BrainVision electrode coordinates from the [COORDINATES] section are very often template positions, and not measured (I haven't encountered another situation as of yet ... and I really did try a lot in 2020 when I wanted to merge Brain Products CapTrak digitization with BrainVision vhdr files via BrainVision Recorder et al.)

[agramfort]

I would just be careful that doing .set_montage(None) will remove head shape dig points for coregistration.

Message ID: @.***>

[hoechenberger]

I would just be careful that doing .set_montage(None) will remove head shape dig points for coregistration.

Message ID: @.***>

Very good point. Then we need to be a bit more picky and remove the DigPoints corresponding to EEG channel names only

[hoechenberger]

... and for M/EEG data we should write _electrodes.tsv, which we currently don't do. @sappelhoff can you confirm?

[hoechenberger]

@agramfort to clarify, all positions stored in _electrodes.tsv will be restored as DigPoints upon reading.

That's why I'm suggesting that we drop all EEG DigPoints from the info, and then read them from _electrodes.tsv -- even for combined M+EEG recordings. A bug (?) currently causes MNE-BIDS not to write the EEG channel positions to _electrodes.tsv when saving M+EEG data, so this needs to be fixed first.

[agramfort]

to me the electrodes file should overwrite what is present in the native format. I would be careful about removing stuff from native format if this information is not present in the sidecar files

Message ID: @.***>

[hoechenberger]

That is indeed a valid point...

@sappelhoff @adam2392 @alexrockhill @larsoner What is your opinion on this? The question is:

• if data in a BIDS dataset stores information in info
• but this information should, according to the standard, be supplied via a plain-text sidecar file
• and that sidecar file doesn't exist

... should we drop or should we keep that information from the info?

[alexrockhill]

Keep with a warning maybe?

[sappelhoff]

I think this question is related to two overarching questions:

1. which data should have precedence: the one in the neural data ... oder the one in the BIDS sidecars. I think the one in the sidecars, however it seems to be more complicated in some edge cases. See discussion an PR here: https://github.com/bids-standard/bids-specification/pull/761
2. whether template data should be written. I think the consensus is "no" ... some discussion here (and containing links): https://github.com/mne-tools/mne-bids/issues/264

... and for M/EEG data we should write _electrodes.tsv,

it should ... but only if we know that we don't write template data, but measured data. (digitized locations)

. @sappelhoff can you confirm?

I don't know right now ... I think it's possible that we don't do it right now. I remember that in the past I had plans to write code that would detect whether electrode locations fit on a sphere, and if they do, then we'd not write electrodes.tsv, else we would.

[hoechenberger]

... and for M/EEG data we should write _electrodes.tsv,

it should ... but only if we know that we don't write template data, but measured data. (digitized locations)

. @sappelhoff can you confirm?

I don't know right now ... I think it's possible that we don't do it right now. I remember that in the past I had plans to write code that would detect whether electrode locations fit on a sphere, and if they do, then we'd not write electrodes.tsv, else we would.

I would not go through that burden. I think it is totally acceptable to off-load this to our users: Let them know clearly that if the data contains digpoints, they should be measured locations, not templates. We could write a respective log message when write_raw_bids() detects and processes digpoints.

I would really not try to add a heuristic here – this is yet again something that gives me the "we're trying to be too clever" vibes, which in the past has proven time and again to cause problems.

[sappelhoff]

You have a point and I would be fine with sending an appropriate log message and/or re-iterating this point in the docstr and/or a tutorial.

[agramfort]

to me fixing native files can be a pain due to format specificities etc. Editing one metadata may imply you break something else as your writer is not bullet proof. For me sidecar files are a beautiful way to adjust the problematic files acquired and therefore should simple overwrite what is present in the native file.