search

modelica / ModelicaStandardLibrary

Free (standard conforming) library to model mechanical (1D/3D), electrical (analog, digital, machines), magnetic, thermal, fluid, control systems and hierarchical state machines. Also numerical functions and functions for strings, files and streams are included.
https://doc.modelica.org
BSD 3-Clause "New" or "Revised" License
476 stars 169 forks source link

Data for magnetic materials correct? #392

Closed modelica-trac-importer closed 7 years ago

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Modified by dietmarw on 3 Aug 2010 06:08 UTC Modelica-Users,

I plotted the data given in Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes.Material.SoftMagnetic.ElectricalSheet (MSL 3.1) with Excel.

My questions are:

Example: Field strenth (A/m) at J=1 T

M330-50A: 69-112 (ThyssenKrupp, depending on angle), 1490 (MSL 3.1)

M530-50A: 94-163 (ThyssenKrupp, depending on angle), 123 (MSL 3.1)

I could provide a screenshot of my Excel curves but I think I can´t upload files here.

Reported by nr on 29 Jul 2010 07:45 UTC Modelica-Users,

I plotted the data given in Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes.Material.SoftMagnetic.ElectricalSheet (MSL 3.1) with Excel.

My questions are:

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thyssenkrupp-steel-europe.com%2Fservlet%2Fit.d4cms.custom.std.download.DownloadServlet%2F005101023654UkE4K0xoNGlQQllRZlhVSEtHUWxERVI5SzE1N1ppOURlZ0FaRERwYVN4WmNORmNOZUhNNkJrTlBBMWxRS2pZQVdrTUNRMHNXZWtwc0pSZ2lIbGRmQ1JBTGNsMCtTeVVRUWhkUVMxY0FLRjg9%2FWerkstoffblatt_M330-50A.pdf%3FIE55_OR_SP1_BUG%3D.pdf&ei=gC5RTNfADIf20gS5mNGNBw&usg=AFQjCNEWtVo5ZGjFQZMgcsTLCwvNRcUSoQ

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thyssenkrupp-steel-europe.com%2Fservlet%2Fit.d4cms.custom.std.download.DownloadServlet%2F005101023654UkE4K0xoNGlQQllRZlhVSEtHUWxERVI5SzE1N1ppOURlZ0FaRFRwd1N4WmNORmNOZUhNNkJrTlBBMWxRS2pZQVdrTUNRMHNXZWtwc0pSZ2lIbGRmQ1JBTGNsMCtTeVVRUWhkUVMxY0FLRjg9%2FWerkstoffblatt_M530-50A.pdf%3FIE55_OR_SP1_BUG%3D.pdf&ei=rC5RTKDeJoPw0wSsyviNBw&usg=AFQjCNFGKdJN7_XRYEy-nIXAeGP4d3rflA

Example: Field strenth (A/m) at J=1 T

M330-50A: 69-112 (ThyssenKrupp, depending on angle), 1490 (MSL 3.1)

M530-50A: 94-163 (ThyssenKrupp, depending on angle), 123 (MSL 3.1)

I could provide a screenshot of my Excel curves but I think I can´t upload files here.

Migrated-From: https://trac.modelica.org/Modelica/ticket/392

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by Thomas Bödrich on 2 Aug 2010 15:35 UTC Replying to [ticket:392 nr]: Dear nr,

you are right, the measurement conditions for soft magnetic materials are not explained in the Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes library. This is due to the diversity of the data sources.

The B(H) characteritics of M530-50A was measured at former German company EBG (Elektroblechgesellschaft Bochum) in 2001 on sheet samples in an Epstein frame at 50 Hz.

The B(H) characteristics of M330-50A was measured on a complete, i.e. punched, machined and packeted electromagnetic drive of a low voltage switchgear device. The measurement was done by a former collegue of mine at our Institute of Electromechanical and Electronic Design at Technische Universität Dresden, Germany, in 1999. The measurement setup is explained in [Ro00] (see Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTube.UsersGuide.Literature). Unfortunately, the records at hand to me do not describe the particular measurement for M330-50A in detail. Most likely, an excitation coil and a measurement coil was used during the measurements. The records at hand mention a demagnetisation with a decaying AC field prior to the measurement and an excitation frequency of 50.1 Hz. Since the ferromagnetic core of a switch gear device differs from a toroid, a model-based parameter identification as outlined in [Ro00] was most likely used in order to obtain the magnetisiation characteristics B(H).

The magnetic properties (relative permeability, saturation polarisation) of electric sheets are impaired by punching, machining and packaging compared to the properties of pure material (see e.g. [Ro00]). Most likely, this explains the large differences between the catalogue data and the B(H) characteristics for M330-50A included in the Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes library. The characteristic of each probe (sheet sample vs. machined and packeted) is mentioned in a diagram in Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes.Material.SoftMagnetic.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by dietmarw on 3 Aug 2010 06:02 UTC Thomas, would it be possible to include some of this explanation in the Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes.UsersGuide? Perhaps in the shape of FAQ or a note. Just so that in future questions like this can be avoided?

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Modified by dietmarw on 3 Aug 2010 06:08 UTC

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by Thomas Bödrich on 3 Aug 2010 07:47 UTC Dietmar, the measurement conditions for electric sheets currently described in a diagram of Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes.Material.SoftMagnetic only can be mentioned in the documentation layer of the particular materials in the future.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by dietmarw on 3 Aug 2010 08:14 UTC Excellent, then just see if you would be able to manage this in the next couple of days, i.e., for the [milestone:MSL3.2 MSL3.2] or for the [milestone:MSL4.0 MSL4.0] release.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by nr on 3 Aug 2010 11:43 UTC Good idea!

Then as the next step the according rules should also be mentioned, e.g.:

IEC 60404-2: Methods of measurement of magnetic properties of electrical steel strip and sheet by means of an Epstein frame

IEC 60404-8-4: Specifications for individual materials – Cold-rolled non-oriented electrical steel sheet and strip delivered in the fully-processed state

I would not use the measured data for the M330-50A because it´s not according to any rule!

(Instead of using data from universities one could also think of using catalogue data from ThyssenKrupp, Cogent,...)

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by Thomas Bödrich on 3 Aug 2010 12:32 UTC Dear nr,

of course you can use material data from other sources. The materials included by now in the Magnetic.FluxTubes.Material.SoftMagnetic library are rather examples than a complete library. However, the differences between the data for sheet samples and the data for the machined M330-50A core illustrate the influence of machining (punching, packaging) on the magnetic properties.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by nr on 3 Aug 2010 13:46 UTC Of course you´re right, but customers want to know the rules and nothing else. It´s a pity I´m not doing research any more, this is real life ;-)!

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by dietmarw on 31 Aug 2010 16:13 UTC Replying to [comment:4 Thomas Bödrich]:

Dietmar, the measurement conditions for electric sheets currently described in a diagram of Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes.Material.SoftMagnetic only can be mentioned in the documentation layer of the particular materials in the future.

OK Assigning to milestone:MSL4.0 then.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by dietmarw on 19 Jan 2012 13:53 UTC Thomas, perhaps the documentation could be added for the next milestone:MSL3.2.1 release?

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by Thomas Bödrich on 19 Jan 2012 16:31 UTC Replying to [comment:10 dietmarw]:

Thomas, perhaps the documentation could be added for the next milestone:MSL3.2.1 release?

Dietmar, we are currently working on a redesign and improvement of the approximation of softmagnetic material characteristics in Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes. This work incorporates model validation with own measurements according to IEC 60404, which are not yet finished. In order to complete and test the improved models before they are included into the MSL, I suggest to keep a milestone later than MSL3.2.1.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by dietmarw on 19 Jan 2012 16:45 UTC OK, in that case I'm moving it to milestone:MSL3.3 for now.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by beutlich on 2 Nov 2015 15:22 UTC ThomasBoedrich Thomas, do you think you can manage to fix this old issue for MSL 3.2.2 (which is estimated to be released later this year). If not, then please reschedule the ticket to any later milestone. Thanks for your contributions.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Changelog removed by beutlich on 2 Nov 2015 15:22 UTC

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Modified by dietmarw on 16 Dec 2015 13:38 UTC

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by dietmarw on 16 Dec 2015 13:40 UTC Thomas, do you think you can manage to fix this old issue for MSL 3.2.2 (which is estimated to be released later this year). If not, then please reschedule the ticket to any later milestone. Thanks for your contributions.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Comment by thomasboedrich on 22 Dec 2015 13:56 UTC With 78ba8587aa34de1f7cd302fe257e5a6a8ae078b0 an extended version of Modelica.Magnetic.FluxTubes went to MSL trunk. New hysteresis models for magnetic materials have been added to the library (see ticket #1620), together with exemplary hysteresis data for different electric sheets. This data has been obtained by own measurements in an Epstein frame according to IEC 60404-2, and the origin of this data is described in the new material models. The same will apply for material data to be added in the future. Material models for softmagnetic materials already included into MSL (based on an equation for mu_r(B)) will remain part of the library without any further explanation due to the diversity of the underling data sources.

modelica-trac-importer commented 7 years ago

Modified by thomasboedrich on 22 Dec 2015 13:58 UTC