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Repository needed for RFC-HWALLET-1 #124

Closed michaesc closed 6 years ago

michaesc commented 6 years ago

New Repository

Since others are already showing interest and even offering to participate, we need a repository for the current hardware wallet work underway.

Let's give the hardware wallet an Esperanto name.

  • fluffypony, 20171006, 08:14:28

Hardware in Esperanto is Aparataro.

  • rehrar, 20171006, 08:58:08

The repository should be named aparat and be subtitled Hardware wallet (RFC-HWALLET-X) monero project sources:

monero-project/aparat Hardware wallet (RFC-HWALLET-X) monero project sources

While not required it would be nice to have some form of administrative privilege of this repository, so I can give push or merge permissions to trustworthy teammates.

anonimal commented 6 years ago

Hi @michaesc,

  1. Can we find an official, non-google, translation for "hardware wallet" or "hardware" in the context of a hardware wallet?
  2. If we stick with aparataro, then why not monero-project/aparataro?
rehrar commented 6 years ago

I've been fostering a good relationship with the people in the ##esperanto IRC channel. I'll ask them. I'm learning Esperanto too for this purpose btw.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

I don't like aparataro because it's (1) hard to spell, (2) slow to type, has (3) four 'a' characters, (4) and not about the same size as 'monero.' That's why I shortened it, but to be honest this preference is not a strong one. We can use 'aparataro' if that seems better.

On the other hand, I wonder what 'wallet' or 'purse' is translated to. That would be a much better term probably, since 'hardware' may not be descriptive enough once a second hardware project starts.

I'll bet rehrar can help find a good term leveraging his Esperanto connection. It was his idea with 'aparataro' that helped us get started, after all.

rehrar commented 6 years ago

Alright, me and the Esperanto guys hashed out what would be acceptable in this instance, so I'll give some of the ideas we covered:

My vote would be for Aparata, despite it still having four 'a' characters as @michaesc wasn't too thrilled about. I think it servers the purpose well enough.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

I like all three choices quite a lot:

...namely because they are not too long and easy enough to spell when hearing the word over phone or voice whatever. Having four a characters is much more of a bummer when combined with multiple r characters and many consonants.

Too bad that the real translation for wallet is monujo because it resembles monero too much, don't you think? By the way, it seems that purse translates to mansaka, but this sounds a bit weird to me.

It's a bit hard for me to vote for the translation of hardware since others in the community are interested in hardware projects of their own, like an ATM machine.

Should we therefore choose aparato or should it be aparata as @rehrar prefers? It would be very nice of @anonimal to break this tie vote, unless he's unhappy with both choices.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Both glosbe.com and dicts.info translate device and appliance to the word aparato. It's still a bit generic, but I couldn't find a way to shorten two or more words describing the wallet nature.

Please make the repository:

monero-project/aparato

...and we'll change it later if there is opposition.

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

Considering we've taken some liberties with Esperanto for our purposes, (SI prefixes for Monero denominations drop mo i.e. piconero, nanonero, decinero, etc), I don't feel like we have to be perfectly grammatically correct. In fact in this example, we've lost the root of the Esperanto word which is mona (money) and left ero (bit) and made the names nonsensical in Esperanto, which I feel is okay.

We have to remember that we're creating a brand name, as such, we don't want to just have plain language descriptions of things. If our official wallet is simply named hardware wallet we can't exactly be upset that someone else uses a similar name. (The Android mobile wallet is already called Monerujo which translates literally with the affix ujo (container) added to the base mona (money), so money container.

I don't feel that creating a neologism if appropriately using Esperanto affixes is a bad thing. I propose possibly:

Honestly I think we need to disambiguate from the 'wallet' paradigm. Wallets hold things, you don't take a series of bits and stuff them in a file or hardware wallet like you do a paper bill that you put in a physical wallet. If you lose your physical wallet with physical bills in it, that money is gone. Cryptocurrency wallets are more like keys that unlock your funds that are stored elsewhere (the blockchain). This concept of wallets is why so many new users are confused about how cryptocurrency works. (How many of you have interacted with a newbie who's scared that his wallet file was lost or corrupted because he didn't realize his coins were safe on the blockchain waiting to be unlocked by the keys that he can restore from his seed?)

Juxtaposition (concatenating nouns/verbs) is allowed in Esperanto in some cases, so:

We have to remember that Esperanto is like other languages where there are root words and affixes that make up the word. (In English we have greek root words, german root words, latin root words, etc that we add affixes (suffixes and prefixes to) to make up words. BUT it's taken to a whole new level. (You can take any root word and add affixes to it to give it a new meaning, action, amount, or clarify what it is.

See this List of Esperanto Affixes. I think we can be more creative than calling the hardware wallet apparatus in Esperanto.

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

Just adding. My favorite is Monestro (money master). The Monestro Project has a ring to it and it's extended name and/or description can be "the Monestro hardware wallet". It keeps 'Mone' to liken it to Monero, while still having a meaning in Esperanto that's not literally describing what it is, but gives a good idea of what it does, it is the master of your money. (i.e. it keeps track of your money.)

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Excellent that @QuickBASIC found the time to provide a urgently needed bit of creativity, thanks. Many of your suggestions are better than what we had before. Although I like money master (monestro) best, the name monero postfixed with the suggested slosilo seems best from a differentiation standpoint.

image

You're right that anything with wallet perpetuates a failed communication policy and a simple hardware or device word is too lame. If nobody objects, let's please create the repository:

monero-project/slosilo

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

Thank you. I was throwing out thoughts to stir the pot of creativity. Thank you for recognizing that. The only problem with 'slosilo` is that there exists a project with that name already.

Our affinity for it might be from it's similarity with the German Schlüssel. I'm certain you're eager to have the repository set up, but certainly we can leave some time for others to further comment and discuss.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

I read your addendum too late, before suggesting slosilo. Should we use monestro instead? That would look like this:

monestrologo

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

I agree that the name Monestro is lacking simply because it is too visually similar to Monero. Kovri simply means onion in Esperanto, but has great connotations for what the software does... I was hoping that someone would be inspired to make better suggestions that I already have... I think you're right we should not use Monestro.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Yes, it's no problem to take some time to get it right. A couple frankenwords that fit are:

And two other combo names are:

I hope I'm correct about finance boss translating to finestro. That would look like this:

finestrologo

michaesc commented 6 years ago

By the way, there are no repositories on GitHub named Finestro so we're at least partially safe with this one.

ghost commented 6 years ago

Using the Esperanto word "banko" (bank): Bankilo (using the suffix ilo = an instrument).

Senriska also means "safe (money)". Doesn't even need to play with suffixes or prefixes.

I also like Finestro and Bankestro.

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

Sorry for multiple relies, but having some time on lunch break, I gave it some more thought.

Maybe we're being too literal.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Do you @QuickBASIC strongly prefer any of those nonliteral names, or what about finestro or bankestro? Would losing the boss and replacing with instrument benefit?

Another idea is vault boss or volbestro.

They are possibly too literal, buy my preferences so far are:

  1. finestro
  2. volbestro
QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

Just not reading both @michaesc and @ViolentlyPeaceful replies:

I like Finestro, but I'm sure it's technically correctly smooshed together from the root financo and affix -estro... I believe financoestro is technically correct, which is a mouth-full.

volbestro is nice too, but once again. I'm not certain about exactly how affixes are appended to roots, so I'm not sure how proper it is.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

It's quite possible that we're perverting Esparonto with these smush words, but no worse than Whatsapp or RaspberryPi does. Also fintech is quite prevalent in this space, so possibly finboss would work for the same reason, when translating to finestro.

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

It's quite possible that we're perverting Esparonto with these smush words

Maybe. We'll probably offend some language nerd (non-pejorative nerd meaning) somewhere, but I believe we're fine creating neologisms in Esperanto (Part of the fun of the Esperanto version of Scrabble, is convincing others that the word you just created is validly crafted and has a real meaning.)

I'm not in love with finance as the root, because finance is such a large topic and carries connotations of economic scale. Money is personal.

Nobody likes kokoso for coconut apparently? We'd have onions and coconuts.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

The difference between kokoso and inkasso is small enough to make me think of debt collection and bankruptcy due to germanics, but I'm likely alone in that category. It would be nice to have a vegetables theme, but I'm failing to come up with good examples. Maybe truffle or potato.

What about a word or multiword conveying personal money like privafond, privafondo, or privamon?

Or privolbo which is made from privata and volbo?

Most people will think that 'priv' stands for 'private' which almost makes for a dual benefit in our case. If any of those seem good enough @QuickBASIC can you say which two are the favourites?

generalizethis commented 6 years ago

What about sekura or volbo?

ghost commented 6 years ago

Durio is the Esperanto word for the Durian fruit (also known as the king of fruits). I like it because it also reminds the latin word durus/durum that means "hard", which you will see the similarity in neo-latin languages like French (dur), Spanish (duro), Portuguese (duro) and Italian (duri).

jrob-io commented 6 years ago

Possible verbs with app-eqsue names:

rehrar commented 6 years ago

Whatever names reach a rough consensus, I would like to take the Esperanto community just to triple check. I realize not everything has to be super accurate, but it'd still be good to get their opinions on what we've decided.

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

@rehrar

It would be nice if they could take part of the discussion here, but I understand many of them probably don't have a GitHub account. I do agree that their opinions would be beneficial so we don't name it something dumb.

serhack commented 6 years ago

Monero Hardware (In esperanto)

bitofdon commented 6 years ago

I really like Volbo. It's pretty easy to remember

michaesc commented 6 years ago

@flavoredtaco Do you like volbestro (vault boss) as well, or prefer the simpler variant?

The ones by @jrob-io deponi and formeti are quite nice. Would they be best left alone or combined with ilo (instrument) to become:

formetilogo

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Do you @ViolentlyPeaceful prefer simple durio (durian) or durestro (durian boss) combined? I follow your logic and it's quite good. Those are expensive fruits, and it would keep us on the food trajectory.

As some english speakers equate money with bread, we might consider panestro (bread master.)

On a related note, benjeto is the word for doughnut. A bit bizarre, but no more so than Raspberry Pi.

miziel commented 6 years ago

sekura - secure, safe monero sekura sounds good, doesn't it? I also like monestro, although google translate gets it as "monster" (stupid ai?) How about metomono (as in "I put money"?) or lokomono ("I place money")? (not sure if this translates correctly...)

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

google translate gets it as "monster" (stupid ai?)

Google Translate uses statistical machine translation and there's not a lot of Esperanto text out there (as it's an invented language), so the translation is very bad.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Yes @miziel monero sekura does sound quite good indeed. What do you think @QuickBASIC about it, does it need a -boss or -instrument addition?

sekuralogo

The combination gives Monero a stable and secure marketing sound. There is no other Github repository with the name sekura.

ghost commented 6 years ago

There are many good options out there, I think we should make a shortlist with maybe 3 to 5 options, confirm the names with the Esperanto community and then decide in one. Make even a public poll if you want. 😜

@michaesc both durio and durestro sound good. I like durio a little bit more because you can buy "hack" domains like dur.io or getdur.io (to follow the getmonero trend). But I also know that many people dislike these domain hacks.

stamparm commented 6 years ago

+1 for Sekura. "Monero Sekura" sounds really good (IMO)

JollyMort commented 6 years ago

I like Moningo. Btw, google translate auto-detected it as Japanese and translated into "Even a person". Even a person can use Monero, yeah :D

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Okay @stamparm I think you're the only one who has provided a fourth grade of consensus, after @generalizethis, @miziel, and myself @michaesc.

Would it be okay with us all, if @rehrar takes monero sekura to the Esperanto community for their blessing? If they say anything but 'yes, good' then we'll keep trying other options?

ghost commented 6 years ago

Kovri simply means onion in Esperanto

@QuickBASIC In what sense? “Kovri” means “to cover”; onion (fruit) would be “cepo”.

raketon is raccoon, which is very sneaky

“Raketo” is a rocket. Raccoon is “lavurso”.

volbo is vault.

Only in the sense of a ceiling, though. (Not sure if you're aiming for that.)

cifrimonilo (a tool for encrypting money)

Actually, the main part of the root(?) has to come last, so this would be “a tool for ‘money used for encryption’”, or something along those lines.

How about metomono (as in "I put money"?) or lokomono ("I place money")? (not sure if this translates correctly...)

@miziel “Placing money” and “placing money”, respectively; see above.

I hope I'm correct about finance boss translating to finestro.

@michaesc “Fino” means “end”, so this would be master of ends. Finance boss would have to be “financestro”.

formeti = put away, store

@jrob-io “For” may hint that you don't intend to take back whatever it is that you're putting away, so I would look for other options.

“Sekura” is fine when used in combination with “Monero …”. Technically the whole name would mean “Secure Coin”, but I suppose that's not an issue with a brand name.

bitofdon commented 6 years ago

@michaesc i think keeping it simple is the best Volbo > Volbestro (in my opinion)

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Wow @F3nd0 quite some mastery of the language, and thanks for the corrections and advice. It seems one of the options that's both linguistically correct and might positively influence understanding of the project is Sekura, which seems to be the direction in which we're headed.

michaesc commented 6 years ago

Did you @flavoredtaco see the comment where volbo means a type of ceiling? It seems adding boss (which I like a lot in general) would lead to the meaning ceiling boss.

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

@F3nd0 Thank you for all your feedback.

@QuickBASIC In what sense? “Kovri” means “to cover”; onion (fruit) would be “cepo”.

Probably misremembered from somewhere and reinforced by the logo. In any case, all my examples were from a poor attempt to understand the language from Google searches today.

Actually, the main part of the root(?) has to come last, so this would be “a tool for ‘money used for encryption’”, or something along those lines.

Is it possible to express a tool for encrypted money with compound words in Esperanto?

rehrar commented 6 years ago

@F3nd0 is from the Esperanto community on IRC. I asked them to come by and weigh in and he did. Let's all sing happy birthday to them as a thank you.

(P.S. I vote 'Sekura')

ghost commented 6 years ago

Oh and here's a note: Esperanto has some letters with hats. When it's not feasible to use those, it's most common to use either the (standard) h-system, or the x-system. So instead of “ĉ ĝ ĥ ĵ ŝ ŭ”, you can type either “ch gh hh jh sh u” (no “uh”) or “cx hx hx jx sx ux”. The former is original, while the latter is always unambiguous (because there is no “x” in Esperanto's alphabet). Both are in use today, and should be preferable to simply omitting the hats.

Also, I would advise against using a generic name if “Monero …” is not to be included in the full name. In my opinion, it's generally not a great idea to give apps generic names. For “monujo”, consider how “wallet” would work for a name; for “sekura”, consider how “secure” would work for a name. The "Monero …” part removes the issue by making a unique combination (from a brand name).

Is it possible to express a tool for encrypted money with compound words in Esperanto?

@QuickBASIC Yes, it should be. Perhaps “ĉifra'mon'ilo” or “ĉifro'mon'ilo” would be appropriate, though I haven't given it the necessary thought to say for sure.

bill-mcgonigle commented 6 years ago

I took a brief look around at other concerns named 'Sekura'. There is a company that sells anti-shoplifting gear, a windows and doors company, a non-lethal defense products company, a bike/motorcycle lock company, etc. In finance it looks like there used to be a Sekura company but that is out of business. I didn't see anybody doing something like a hardware wallet.

KeeJef commented 6 years ago

Adding my vote for Sekura

QuickBASIC commented 6 years ago

I like Sekura. Nice and short and a decent rough cognate with English secure, Spanish/Portuguese seguro, Swedish säkra, etc.

Fankadore commented 6 years ago

Google tells me that "Access" translates as "Aliro". I think the verb "To Access" would be more appropriate, "Aliri". If we don't have to stick to strict Esperanto then I would stylize as Alira, but I suppose that could mean "Accessible", which is the opposite of what we're getting at.

Alex058-2 commented 6 years ago

Hi, I think that "to carry" translates to "Vesto" in Esperanto. Nice short name, "Monero Vesto". Not sure if there are other projects with the name Vesto though. On the Monero-reddit I posted this name too, more people seem to like it.

miziel commented 6 years ago

How would "a vessel to carry", a carrier, be in Esperanto?

11.10.2017 00:04 "Alex058-2" notifications@github.com napisał(a):

Hi, I think that "to carry" translates to "Vesto" in Esperanto. Nice short name, "Monero Vesto". Not sure if there are other projects with the name Vesto though. On the Monero-reddit I posted this name too, more people seem to like it.

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