umma08
commented
1 year ago logs below:
[2023-08-22 17:00:36] <midipoet> Monero Policy Working Group meeting time. Agenda is here: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/875
[2023-08-22 17:00:39] <midipoet> 1. Greetings
[2023-08-22 17:01:05] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> Hello
[2023-08-22 17:02:03] <midipoet> hello
[2023-08-22 17:02:26] <midipoet> we might as well get started, and hopefully others will join along the way
[2023-08-22 17:02:39] <midipoet> 2. EC public consultations
[2023-08-22 17:02:47] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> agree
[2023-08-22 17:02:54] <midipoet> Clarifying Legal Tender Status
[2023-08-22 17:03:21] <midipoet> the draft response is found here (google docs): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SpuLnRBOwS6c0RYdlYLq66dd6BQMZzOkyCAWi5ci_wQ/edit?usp=sharing
[2023-08-22 17:03:56] <midipoet> andrea_togni: thanks for the work done on this initially, and then also the work on accepting/rejecting suggestions and changes
[2023-08-22 17:04:15] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> This morning I revised the two documents, just corrected some typos and other minor issues
[2023-08-22 17:05:20] <midipoet> great. i think it is pretty close to being ready
[2023-08-22 17:05:53] <midipoet> maybe we can leave it open for comments/suggestions/review for one more week and if there are no changes we can send it in?
[2023-08-22 17:06:14] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> agree with the plan
[2023-08-22 17:06:38] <midipoet> there is an outstanding issue that the feedback option on the Commission page is not there. i will email the helpdesk tomorrow about it
[2023-08-22 17:06:58] <midipoet> Digital Euro
[2023-08-22 17:07:18] <midipoet> the draft response is found here (google docs): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EDDKhSs-CRlBdq7Ms_QIr-fUP6rHaMwlK1Rk4EW-39o/edit?usp=sharing
[2023-08-22 17:07:27] <midipoet> again, thanks andrea for all the work on this
[2023-08-22 17:07:35] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> thanks. keep us updated :)
[2023-08-22 17:09:12] <midipoet> with this, i think i have to add a bit on Article 25, as rucknuim pointed out the regulation authors refer to 'programmable money' and fungibility, and i think more should be said about this in some manner
[2023-08-22 17:09:40] <midipoet> sorry i meant Art 24 ^
[2023-08-22 17:10:00] <midipoet> i also need the author of the paragraph on Art 25 to provide a reference for the fourth point
[2023-08-22 17:10:18] <midipoet> does anybody know who wrote that paragraph?
[2023-08-22 17:11:34] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> Programmability is just quoted in the proposal but not explained. In our response, probably we should add that it should never be made a part of the digital euro in any form
[2023-08-22 17:13:37] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> on fungibility it will get interesting. Commercial bank money is fungible with the euro because it is convertible at par. The figital euro is a liability of the ECB like cash, so it should be fungible with it. But of course this could change if they add limits and restrictions to the digital euro
[2023-08-22 17:14:28] <midipoet> they do clarify what they mean by programmable money (and explicitly disallow limits on time or spending on certain goods)
[2023-08-22 17:14:39] <midipoet> the wording is in Recital 55
[2023-08-22 17:14:52] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> ah OK, I will check it
[2023-08-22 17:14:54] <midipoet> however, they do allow the concept of conditional payments
[2023-08-22 17:15:18] <midipoet> and it might be wise to add a paragraph asking them to create a better distinction between the two
[2023-08-22 17:15:35] <midipoet> i will try and write something this week (but anybody else that wants to, please feel free)
[2023-08-22 17:16:25] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> I don't think the statement on migration is appropriate
[2023-08-22 17:19:00] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> It wasn't there this morning
[2023-08-22 17:20:18] <midipoet> i added that, as i was trying (but failing) to reference why digital identity and financial inclusion are not compatible. I am not sure how they aren't
[2023-08-22 17:22:44] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> They aren't in the sense that digital identity requires some sort of permission, which is exclusionary by definition. Basically digitally identity allows institutions to include only people that satisfy certain criteria, thus excluding those who do not satisfy them. Of course, the issue is about who decides the criteria.
[2023-08-22 17:24:03] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> Does this reasoning make sense?
[2023-08-22 17:24:17] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> If so, it is not only about migration, but about whoever does not satisfy the digital identity criteria
[2023-08-22 17:24:37] <midipoet> sure, but what europeans wouldn't be allowed a digital identity?
[2023-08-22 17:26:31] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> That's the point. European institutions may claim the power to define categories that should not have a digital identity for whatever reason. Like with passports. Also, there is the issue of non-Europeans
[2023-08-22 17:26:42] <midipoet> (or anybody living in Europe legally for that matter)
[2023-08-22 17:27:18] <midipoet> ok. i get that logic, but i think it needs to be fleshed out (and is important)
[2023-08-22 17:27:25] <midipoet> maybe in the next week you can try?
[2023-08-22 17:27:44] <m-relay> 02<rucknium:monero.social> The proposal document already has a paragraph that tries to distinguish conditional payments from programmable money. Is that not enough?
[2023-08-22 17:28:02] <midipoet> (perhaps in a new paragraph). i can then try and add some references on the ethics of digital identity. i have some of them around (but will have to dig)
[2023-08-22 17:28:27] <m-relay> 02<rucknium:monero.social> There is an economic definition of fungibility in the New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics by the way.
[2023-08-22 17:28:31] <midipoet> rucknium: yes, i think it could be, but i need to look at it better.
[2023-08-22 17:28:35] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> I'll do it
[2023-08-22 17:28:40] <midipoet> ok
[2023-08-22 17:28:58] <midipoet> 3. Next steps
[2023-08-22 17:29:08] <m-relay> 02<rucknium:monero.social> Conveniently available at https://moneroresearch.info/index.php?action=resource_RESOURCEVIEW_CORE&id=50
[2023-08-22 17:29:09] <midipoet> shall we take another week for inputs/review and meet next week?
[2023-08-22 17:29:15] <midipoet> that will give us a few days still
[2023-08-22 17:29:52] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> I'll add a new paragraph then
[2023-08-22 17:31:02] <midipoet> ok. sounds good
[2023-08-22 17:31:26] <midipoet> rucknium: great link - thanks
[2023-08-22 17:31:44] <midipoet> 4. Any other business/comments?
[2023-08-22 17:32:35] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> Very intersting website, thanks for sharing
[2023-08-22 17:33:23] <m-relay> 02<rucknium:monero.social> Thanks. plowsof and I created and maintain the website :)
[2023-08-22 17:34:39] <m-relay> 02<rucknium:monero.social> Most of the work on the website is handled by open source WIKINDX software. Not our creation, of course.
[2023-08-22 17:35:00] <midipoet> 5. Confirm next meeting
[2023-08-22 17:35:20] <midipoet> is everyone ok for next Tuesday 29th August at 16:00 UTC?
[2023-08-22 17:35:36] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> should we give a look at the tornado cash ruling in the coming weeks? it could have an impact on monero
[2023-08-22 17:36:00] <midipoet> andrea_togni: yes, i think that is a good idea
[2023-08-22 17:36:28] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> agree for next tuesday
[2023-08-22 17:36:47] <midipoet> looking to create a blog, or some sort, or just to interpret the ruling and the implications?
[2023-08-22 17:39:11] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> no idea at the moment, i didn't have time to look at it
[2023-08-22 17:39:23] <midipoet> ok. lets table that, and discuss next week
[2023-08-22 17:39:46] <midipoet> i think we can call the meeting now. tasks are to spend another week reviewing/inputting into the two documents (please in review mode).
[2023-08-22 17:40:09] <midipoet> andrea_togni: can i task you with accept/reject as you work (ie., chief editor?)
[2023-08-22 17:40:57] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> OK
[2023-08-22 17:41:24] <midipoet> perfect
[2023-08-22 17:41:34] <midipoet> i think that is all then. see you next week
[2023-08-22 17:41:54] <m-relay> 07<andrea_togni:matrix.org> see you, and thanks for hosting
Location: Libera.chat, #monero-policy
Instructions for joining the monero.social Matrix server.
Date and Time: Tuesday 22nd August @ 16:00 UTC Check your timezone
Moderator: midipoet
Agenda (Please reach out in advance of the meeting if you would like to propose an agenda item)
consultation draft text:(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SpuLnRBOwS6c0RYdlYLq66dd6BQMZzOkyCAWi5ci_wQ/edit?usp=sharing)
consultation draft text:(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EDDKhSs-CRlBdq7Ms_QIr-fUP6rHaMwlK1Rk4EW-39o/edit?usp=sharing)
Meeting logs will be posted here afterwards.