Monero Community Workgroup Meeting: Saturday 13th April 15:00UTC

Logs

< plowsof > +400 xmr donation to the general fund. The anonymous donation spam attack continues

< plowsof > Some new proposals on the ideas page also https://ccs.getmonero.org/ideas/

< rottenwheel:kernal.eu > Wen 420.69?

< rbrunner7:monero.social > I wonder how long it will take until strange conspiracy theories will spring up that try to explain those large donations, who makes them, how they can afford to donate so much, what's their motivation, and so on. It does get a wee bit strange IMHO.

< dukenukem > rbrunner7 weirdest one, at least in contemporary times was the one whose goal was to purchase monero.com from cake. the GitHub comment and all.

< rbrunner7:monero.social > Right.

< dukenukem > 'We are Monero...' https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2013#issuecomment-1234523829

< rbrunner7:monero.social > I wrote a fiction short story where remarkable donations play an important role in the plot: https://rbrunner7.github.io/fear.html

< ravfx:xmr.mx > I that monero-gui thing was supposed to warn people about updating?

< ravfx:xmr.mx > Why there still people using 0.18.0.0

< ravfx:xmr.mx > Just tested with a 0.18.3.1 I still had (I normally use feather)

< ravfx:xmr.mx > Yep it does ask me to update it, I assume it did not back in the 0.18.0.0 days.

< aremor:matrix.org > Sure. And then any ask for an unban in here results in a new ban. Same for mentioning the banned. Or any complaining about any of the moderation.

< plowsof > ravfx this is true, the update prompt was a new addition, but i think it was after 17.3.2 selsta

< plowsof > someone was using 17.3.0 the other day in support :(

< ravfx:xmr.mx > Cool then.

< ravfx:xmr.mx > People should press the download/update button when it ask lol

< ravfx:xmr.mx > I just helped someone that was using 0.18.0.0

< plowsof > 3 letter agencies have performed a psyop with the WinRar license pop up that we clicked away so often that it happened subconsciously (during our windows XP phase). Our brains use the same pathways to click the 'there is an update available' box away (this is a joke)

< aremor:matrix.org > 🙏🏾

< aremor:matrix.org > 💯

< 321bob321:monero.social > its good when you can attack someone when they cant defend themselves

< 321bob321:monero.social > weak

< rottenwheel:kernal.eu > Dan (Is not the man & Braxman Tomsparks Advocate) Backup: how do you like being the first news in issue 192? ;-)

< 321bob321:monero.social > Wasnt me \0/

< omiomi:monero.social > I miss Howard.

< rottenwheel:kernal.eu > Very random and old message to reply to. 🤔

< dave.jp:matrix.org > Fuk can’t take a chill pill

_< cx:matrix.org >__ When the robots rise up they'll take out tranny's first.

< aremor:matrix.org > luigi1111w: plowsof , xmrscott are you all really this incapable of fixing this? 1 of the most important devs to the entire project just spelled out to you that they will not tolerate disruption and you still can’t do anything?

< 321bob321:monero.social > So when he says jump? We go how high?

< 321bob321:monero.social > There was coc in the room header pointing to libre.chat and matrix coc.

< aremor:matrix.org > What are you talking about?

< 321bob321:monero.social > You talking about lukes comments.

< dave.jp:matrix.org > Who/what was said ?

< aremor:matrix.org > Who is “he” and who is giving out commands?

< dave.jp:matrix.org > Obviously

< aremor:matrix.org > Who is “he” and what commands are being given out?

< aremor:matrix.org > It’s not just 1 person. Anyone that actually does shit around here is fed up with the non-sense. And they’ll likely do the same if the non sense continues. The only people that are for continued disruptive behavior don’t contribute much (except for Monerobull).

< aremor:matrix.org > If people want lulz they should go somewhere else for that shit

< 321bob321:monero.social > Rip

< 321bob321:monero.social > Lives under a rock

_< cx:matrix.org >__ Opensource means freedom of speech

_< cx:matrix.org >__ Especially when it directly relates to monero

< jack_ma_blabla:matrix.org > if devs have so much problem, they should stick to dev channels where such trolling is not allowed

< aremor:matrix.org > I agree

< 321bob321:monero.social > With lukes proposal he wants 3k xmr, but lists cost for some?

< nioCat > meanwhile this channel is supposed to be where the CCS work happens which is directly related to funding the devs

< nioCat > why would they be interested?

< nioCat > it's not a place for trolling

< 321bob321:monero.social > Tbh audit should be done by independant peoples

< nioCat > bob although it does not specify who is doing the auditing the discussion in MRL was as you suggest

< nioCat > in the past important changes have had multiple audits

< syntheticbird:monero.social > got the exact same thought

< plowsof > Kayabanerves proposal is 880xmr for his own tasks (first set of milestones with amounts) the rest is for an MRL pot

< syntheticbird:monero.social > I got a theory: Kayaba is actually in contact with a ransomware gang, that purposefully send its treasury to the general fund, so that Kayaba can receive this money in public. That's why the amount we've been receiving since its first gist draft of FCMP+SA+L correlate with the CCS amount. * drop the mic *

< 321bob321:monero.social > -.-

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Hopefully this isn't going to trigger another storm in the channel.

< syntheticbird:monero.social > I've opened PR on my repo for the CoC (since its what it is supposed to be called). It is a lightly modified version of the Covenant Contributors CoC. I've marked the differences in the PR description: https://github.com/SyntheticBird45/monero-community-guideline/pull/1

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Critics of these changes are appreciated.

< sech1 > Covenant CoC? Isn't it that woke retard CoC?

< sech1 > Strong no from me

< syntheticbird:monero.social > wait read before judging please

< sech1 > The only CoC we need will have one line

< sech1 > "Don't be a jerk"

< sech1 > Done

< sech1 > I'm on my phone now, will read it later

< syntheticbird:monero.social > alr

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Here's the jerk version: https://github.com/SyntheticBird45/monero-community-guideline/pull/2

< jeffro256:monero.social > I think there's a happy medium between these two proposals. On one hand, it's pointless trying to exhaustively list all the different categories that one could harass another person against. Might as well mention accent, high metabolism, general goofy demeanor, and the quantity of fruits and veggies your parents fed you as a toddler. In addition to that, the wording of the covenan

< jeffro256:monero.social > t CoC makes it seem like harassment only comes from people exploiting each other's inherent social differences, when sometimes people are just jerks for no reason. Also, sometimes people are jerks for political reasons but hide it behind some other reason. On the other hand, the term "jerk" is ambiguous, and sometimes being a jerk is the best way to get a point across and actually

< jeffro256:monero.social > get people to change their minds and get off their asses.

< jeffro256:monero.social > We should be careful of the optics of adopting the Covenant CoC and excluding some ,but not all, of the personal characteristics in the "Our Pledge" section. For example, just dropping "race" and "color" makes it seem like we're okay with people harassing people based on race and color, but not those other properties lol

< plowsof:matrix.org > meeting in 2 hours

< plowsof > community meeting in 2 hours https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/988

< mrcyjanek0:matrix.org > matrix issue persist and irc is recommended?

< jeffro256:monero.social > yeah probably

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Thanks for the insights, I see exactly what you mean. I'll try to address all of that in a third iteration.

< syntheticbird:monero.social > yes.

< plowsof:matrix.org > yes still broken* :(

< syntheticbird:monero.social > yesterday this channel somehow got updated on matrix.org near instantly because of the high activity. But for the meeting it'll not be the case

< 321bob321:monero.social > Better of using monerologs with your on the matrix

< pointoffailure:monero.social > > "- Do not be a Jerk"

< pointoffailure:monero.social > Why Jerk is capitalized?

< pointoffailure:monero.social > > "* Accepting responsibility and apologizing we fucked up"

< pointoffailure:monero.social > I'm so sorry that you fucked up, lol. WTF is this?

< syntheticbird:monero.social > well. I thought sech1 wrote it with a capital

< syntheticbird:monero.social > when*

< syntheticbird:monero.social > hey alright you got pointoffailure I'm making lot of typos. Wait for when it's not draft anymore

< pointoffailure:monero.social > > "Having read, "All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten" (ISBN: 978-0-8041-0526-2)"

< pointoffailure:monero.social > Did you get a donation for a product placement?

< syntheticbird:monero.social > I'm corrupted yes. Why is this question. That's obvious that I'm completely biaised and that Robert Fulghum paid me

< pointoffailure:monero.social > > A bad actor Jerk is someone ... needlessly argumentative

< pointoffailure:monero.social > In other words someone who doesn't agree with you?

< pointoffailure:monero.social > > "Community moderators are responsible for exterminating the Jerks."

< pointoffailure:monero.social > ... With their disintegrator rays, lol

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Alright so the fact that you are taking seriously the jerk version worry me. This is was supposed to half a meme. And wtf are you taking this one me, this is literally the definition coming from the monero repository

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Alright so the fact that you are taking seriously the jerk version worry me. This is was supposed to half a meme. And wtf are you taking this on me, this is literally the definition coming from the monero repository

< pointoffailure:monero.social > > "Community moderators have the right and responsibility to discuss whether someone is a Jerk."

< pointoffailure:monero.social > That's exactly the issue that turned the Monero community into a dumpster fire

< pointoffailure:monero.social > > "Being a Jerk is a fatality."

< pointoffailure:monero.social > lol

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Not in that sense. It's about discussing between moderators if someone's act is violating the rules or not. There is always a need for flexibility. What turned this channel into a dumpster fire is that ofrnxmr fan used several logical fallacies to justify that ofrnxmr is actually ok and that we're tyrans.

< pointoffailure:monero.social > So far this one is cringe, looking for a "serious one" now

< 321bob321:monero.social > Also will magic chip in for luke ccs? Since hes a board member?

< rucknium:monero.social > No it's the opposite. MAGIC cannot host fundraising for or give grants to MAGIC Monero Fund committee members. It's a conflict of interest.

< sech1 > I'm reading https://github.com/SyntheticBird45/monero-community-guideline/blob/channels_coc/CHANNELS_CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md now

< sech1 > "everyone, regardless of age, body, size, disabilities, ethnicity, sex characteristics, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance, religion, or sexual identity and orientation"

< sech1 > why this long list? Does the word "everyone" not include everyone already?

< pointoffailure:monero.social > The serious one is essentially the same as the jerk one but a lot more wordy. Even AIs generate less water. Whoever wrote it should stop writing lengthy texts and should start reading more books.

< pointoffailure:monero.social > Both are cringe, just let the mods write down the list of the most common reasons they typically banned people in the past and that would be it

< syntheticbird:monero.social > I agree with you. It's just Covenant Contributor way. I opened a Jerk version and Jeffro shared the same opinion. It's useless to enumerate everything

< sech1 > "diverse, inclusive, and healthy community" makes me want to throw up. "Diverse, inclusive" are the words with bad reputation, it's the woke shit

< syntheticbird:monero.social > the jerk version for reference: https://github.com/SyntheticBird45/monero-community-guideline/blob/channels_jerk/CHANNELS_CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md. It was supposed to be a joke but somehow it's more attractive

< sech1 > "The use of sexualized language or imagery" why not?

< sech1 > Posting sexy Monerochan pics not allowed anymore?

< syntheticbird:monero.social > I think it is just in appropriate channel

< sech1 > Why such prejudice against sex and sexuality?

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Probably to avoid porn and horny discussions

< sech1 > nothing bad with that

< syntheticbird:monero.social > But It deserve to be clearer

< syntheticbird:monero.social > I don't want to see porn in monero channels...

< sech1 > If they're 18+ why not?

< sech1 > Please explain

< sech1 > It's just again the woke shit trying to make sex a taboo

< syntheticbird:monero.social > it's not woke its just ridiculous in serious channels to talk about sex, it just makes you look like an addict somehow. I guess you can talk of that in offtopic

< syntheticbird:monero.social > that's my opinion but some might join your opinion

< syntheticbird:monero.social > if more people don't condemn I can remove it

< sech1 > Also, I don't see why even mention it if Monero development, or general Monero topics are not related to sex/sexuality in any way. Except for maybe using Monero to pay for adult entertainent services

< sech1 > Which is a topic that can be discussed at some point, and this CoC straight up disallows it

< r4v3r23:monero.social > monerochans hot af whats wrong with you

< syntheticbird:monero.social > That's because some might think its ok to say hot pussy or fucking cock in a channel like Community Workgroup or Community dev. It's the primary concerns. It don't mean to disallow talking sexuality it's just condemn overusing it to appear innapropriate

< syntheticbird:monero.social > inappropriate*

< sech1 > lol, and I thought monero-pools was as horny as it gets in Monero :D

< syntheticbird:monero.social > there is a #monero-pool ?

< plowsof > lol

< sech1 > yes, but please don't join our little horny channel :D

< r4v3r23:monero.social > tell monerochan to send nodes

< syntheticbird:monero.social > alright. I'll add a mention that some rules do not apply when the channel description state about it

< syntheticbird:monero.social > no necessarily state about it. but at least its clear somehow, somewhere

< mrcyjanek > meeting time?

< syntheticbird:monero.social > rbrunner7:

< syntheticbird:monero.social > wrong handle mb

< plowsof:matrix.org > Meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/988

< plowsof > Greetings! https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/988

< mrcyjanek > Hi :3

< syntheticbird:monero.social > hello

< r4v3r23:monero.social > yo

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > Hi.

< plowsof > lets touch on some highlights as there is alot to cover in this meeting

< plowsof > any highlights people wish to share? :)

< rucknium:monero.social > Hi

< plowsof > the latest revuoxmr issue @ https://www.revuo-xmr.com/issue-192.html has a screenshot of a monero hash chart, and p2pool is ranked quite high... as high as 3rd infact " - p2pool top 3 hashrate! - sech1"

< hinto.janaiyo:matrix.org > hi, am here but probably can't reply in time due to matrix issues

< plowsof > General fund donations.... an extra 400 xmr received today... 99.... many 100's... it continues.. i am losing track. amazing to see

< mrcyjanek0:matrix.org > @hinto https://web.libera.chat/ #monero-community channel

< plowsof:matrix.org > yes, matrix issues ongoing, can follow on monerologs.net to see replies (if you're on matrix dot org)

< plowsof > News: Monero Observer - Revuo Monero - The Monero Standard - Monero Moon

< plowsof > we can jump into the ccs ideas unless people want to share something else?

< plowsof > rbrunner7 "wrote a fiction short story where remarkable donations play an important role in the plot: rbrunner7.github.io/fear.html "

< jeffro256 > Hi! I wanted to discuss concerns about @kayabaNerve's FCMPs+SA+L proposal and how it relates to Seraphis integration. I think its so cool that it might actually be possible, and I'm genuinely impressed that Luke was able to write up a possible path for it. However, I don't think that this should be the path forwards for the protocol for numerous reasons, and bottom line, I think that in practice, trying to do FCMPs+SA+L on Ring

< jeffro256 > CT won't actually deliver FCMP privacy must faster than if we go with Seraphis first. As such, I also don't think that we should be prioritizing generalized bulletproof audits before Seraphis audits in the CCS

< r4v3r23:monero.social > crazy

< ctrej:matrix.org > ^ that my backup account (because .org is not reliable)

< rucknium:monero.social > I am trying to get clues about the IP address origin of the new suspected spam transactions. If you run a node and want to share data with me later, please input set_log net.p2p.msg:INFO in your monerod console. Or if you don't use monerod in interactive mode, you can restart with the --log-level=net.p2p.msg:INFO flag. The information in this log will contain data on exact

< rucknium:monero.social > ly when you are getting new transactions from each of your peers.

< ct:xmr.mx > hi all

< rucknium:monero.social > This will add about 1GB of data per day to your log file. Probably I would want to collect it in about a week.

< plowsof > thanks for confirming ct

< plowsof > 1GB of data per day , thanks for the headsup, ill be checking closely

< plowsof > General Fund contributes to two proposals: Rucknium Statistical Research and CypherStack Generalized Bulletproofs Security Proofs

< plowsof > received quite a positive reaction on the twitters^ its nice to see the general fund contributing

< plowsof > thanks jeffro256we can jump into that in more detail soon

< jeffro256 > Why was the GBP proposal merged so fast?

< rucknium:monero.social > jeffro256: Strong support at two MRL meetings

< rucknium:monero.social > was a factor AFIAK

< plowsof > we even delayed it by a few days to reach the 2nd MRL meeting

< jeffro256 > I guess that's on me for not attending those meetings, but I thought all CCS proposals take at least 10 days to merge

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > My only concern is that FCMP looks like its being rushed through - are there appropriate 3rd party reviews or processes not coming from Luke that are overseeing this?

< 0xfffc:matrix.org > Hi all

< plowsof > there was also a call for more autonomy in the 1st meeting so proposals from MRL can be discussed / merged quicker. this is why (although its not a hard rule) to let them vote officially on merging to the CCS at the last meeting

< rucknium:monero.social > IMHO, if Cypher Stack cannot produce a security proof for GBP, then CS resources should go to Seraphis mathematics analysis.

< r4v3r23:monero.social > i second this. seraphis is taking extremely slow and careful progress, not so with FCMP

< r4v3r23:monero.social > yeah

< syntheticbird:monero.social > That is mainly because FCMP+SA+L is meant to be deployed asap. The question would be if the CCS and actual proposal take consideration of this cycle for security analysis.

< rucknium:monero.social > AFAIK, everyone involved in FCMP has said that they need mathematical security proofs, review of those security proofs, and audits of the implementation code before they are deployed on Monero's mainnet.

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > asap doesn't sound right to me. luke's tone in the last meeting seemed alarmist and thats how mistakes are made

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > ASAP doesn't sound right to me. Luke's tone in the last meeting seemed alarmist and thats how mistakes are made.

< plowsof > how do we feel aboutwhat happened with the GBP proposal. that it was primarily discussed in the MRL meetings, and voted on merge there? i hope this makes sense

< jeffro256 > I have a few scattered thoughts about FCMPs+SA+L that I'll put here (I'll do a better write-up later). For context, I'll start by giving a quick update where Seraphis integration is right now, since the stated reason for doing FCMPs+SA+L on RingCT is to get FCMPs out as soon as possible. Seraphis research is done, Seraphis PoC is done (with mocked blockchain), @dangerousfreedom has written a basic CLI that can import legacy wal

< jeffro256 > let files, create Seraphis txs, and transfer funds (using the fake blockchain object). New Jamtis changes need to be merged, but that doesn't really affect Core integration, just wallet library dev. Speaking of wallet library dev, @jberman has released a new async wallet scanner which is reportedly up to 2x faster than wallet2. The seraphis integration project is also spearheading phasing out wallet2, which devs have wanted for

< jeffro256 > years.

< r4v3r23:monero.social > im not knocking it technically, just wanna make sure were not rushing into anything too fast without proper caution

< plowsof > thanks for the update jeffro256

< r4v3r23:monero.social > awesome, is there an ETA on "wallet3"?

< jeffro256 > In the FCMP+SA+L proposal, Luke states that it is a "drop-in" replacement for CLSAGs. This is a mistake, in my opinion, and downplays the extensive work needed to integrate FCMPs. For example, we will have to make extensive changes to BlockchainLMDB to support the merkle trees, the transaction input format will change (no more txin_to_key) , we will need to add an RPC interface for grabbing tree paths, we will need to update wa

< jeffro256 > llet2 to support fetching and construct proofs on the merke tree, there will have to be non-trivial changes to the tx validation logic in the Blockchain class, and we will have to add and maintain new base crypto libraries.

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > Right, its a huge task and needs to be treated with care. Spam attacks be damned, there's no reason to rush.

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > Is there a reason FCMP isn't coming as part of Seraphis?

< rucknium:monero.social > jeffro256: When you have important input on FCMP and Seraphis, try to come to MRL meetings. That's OK if you were taking a break :)

< plowsof > there will be more overlap between no-wallet-left-behind and monero-research-lab now it seems both of which have weekly meetings

< jeffro256 > What is holding up Seraphis development right now IS integration (for the most part). Integration into Monero core is just plain difficult, and IMO is hard to overstate. There are few people that can actually do c++ monero-project integration and trying to do FCMP+SA+L integration will split that human capital up. Not to mention, it will make Seraphis integration down the road harder since now there is effectively FOUR differen

< jeffro256 > t tx protocols (CN, RCT, RCT w/ FCMP, Seraphis).

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Wouldn't it be a possibility to hire freelance developers to help at integrating into the monero codebase ?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > we'd want some one in house for something that senstive i think

< rucknium:monero.social > Back in July kayabaNerve promised to me "Rucknium: I can promise you that I won't sign off on deploying this [FCMP] without: 1) Review of the application of divisors 2) A proven and reviewed VCS scheme 3) Multiple audits 4) A better understanding of what should be audited, what should be formally verified, and further criteria established on those bounds." https://libera.monerolo

< rucknium:monero.social > gs.net/monero-community/20230727#c269844

< jeffro256 > The turnaround time for doing so would likely cause it so slow down more (Mythical Man Month). If we hire good devs now, they might be really useful in a year's time

< rucknium:monero.social > Because I said "I've brought up the issue of putting carts before horses many times. I don't see others really caring about it, so I'll stop bringing it up. If new cryptography goes on Monero mainnet without mathematical security proofs, reviews of those security proofs, and code audits, I'll re-evaluate my continued contributions to the project." https://libera.monerologs.net/mon

< rucknium:monero.social > ero-community/20230727#c269838

< r4v3r23:monero.social > agree with this 100% and thanks for your cautious approach

< jeffro256 > I hate to be the party pooper on this issue and tell people to wait, but adding more technical debt to RingCT and trying to rush integration will not benefit Monero long-term IMO. And if integration is NOT rushed for FCMP+SA+L, then Seraphis will almost certainly be ready for deployment at that point anyways

< plowsof > if we could conclude the highlights shortly with food left for thought to be discussed in detail at no-wallet-left-behind / monero-research-lab that would be ideal so we have time to cover the ccs ideas and any other business. cc rbrunner7 for your comments jeffro

< hinto.janaiyo:matrix.org > would using Cuprate as the initial test bed for FCMP integration make sense? I believe it would be much easier to integrate (no C++ bindings and concept translations, Cuprate would just directly/natively use the FCMP repo) and we could iron out kinks before integration into monero-core

< plowsof > so wownero and cuprate have threw their name into their hat for FCMP tests, nice

< plowsof > s/their/the

< syntheticbird:monero.social > I believe rust library testing would be hard through FFI for monero core

< jeffro256 > Assuming the network waits for it to be integrated into Monero core, then we still have the problem of integrating into Monero core, regardless of Cuprate's status. The concepts of using the FCMP API are not necessarily hard, but it is hard to communicate all of the difficulties with integrating novel consensus approaches into Monero core code, as the codebase itself makes it difficult

< plowsof > thanks jeffro, i think we can now conclude the communiyt highlights and return to those topics later. lets discuss the ccs ideas list

< jeffro256 > Alright

< plowsof > https://ccs.getmonero.org/ideas/

< plowsof > a. Unnamed Monero Wallet development

< mrcyjanek > hey! xmruw dev here, monero.dart is getting more adoption with some wallets checking them out in their codebase (stack and cake), some bugs were smashed around that time

< mrcyjanek > we were able to clean up patches, add few extra debug screens to the wallet, and work on code documentation

< mrcyjanek > and I think that's it, goals from the CCS were not met, but overall quality improved

< jeffro256 > Since Cake apparently relies on this software library, have you approached them about funding?

< mrcyjanek > cake funded the work on implementing the monero.dart in cake, we will see how it goes when this is done.

< xFFFC0000 > I vote for merge.

< jeffro256 > Are there examples of devs using this library for non proprietary wallets? Nothing inherently wrong with for-profit wallets like Cake, but I just want to see some community usage before going ahead and merging, to prevent a scenario in which Cake intentionally or unintentionally socializes their dev costs with the CCS

< jeffro256 > (or Stack, not to pick on Cake)

< mrcyjanek > xmruw.net, stack and cake currently. Considering that the library is still being worked on I see this as a large interest

< mrcyjanek > and these are open source wallets as far as I know.

< plowsof > cuprate devs also provide work for serei / inadvertantly or specifically via pull requests, would that be similar?

< plowsof > serai

< boog900:monero.social > serai has done more to help Cuprate than the other way round

< plowsof > thanks for clarifying boog900

< mrcyjanek > well cake doesn't fund monero.dart development, cake funds the implementation in their wallet - which doesn't overlap with the ccs

< jeffro256 > Also Serai AFAIK (could be wrong) is an open protocol, and does not have dev taxes, paid promotions, affiliation income, etc

< xFFFC0000 > ( apologies for interjecting. I have a shaky connection today. I am putting my vote list here in case I lost connection: upvote for anonero, upvote for Kaya, upvote for ofrn, upvote for cyjan wallet dev )

< plowsof > ack xFFFC0000 thanks

< xFFFC0000 > ( Thanks, in case I lost connection on the road )

< plowsof > comments from jeffro for consideration combined with those of rbrunner/tobtoht reg 'should we make something new this late in the game before happens e.g. fcmp.. seraphis... and everything has to be rewritten to counter the updoots.. i think we have a full picture now of this proposal and its time to get a decision

< plowsof > or decision asap

< plowsof > we can move on then while a decision is pending? unless people other tan 0xFFF want to vote merge/close now

< mrcyjanek > Imo yes we can move on

< plowsof > thank you for attending again mrcyjanek

< plowsof > b. 0xfffc-2024Q2

< jeffro256 > I'd be willing to vote merge on the condition that Stack and/or Cake pledges to take on a larger portion of dev cost in the future for the library that they use to make profits

< plowsof > selsta hyc shown support for his initial proposal. which has almost concluded. would be nice to see if their good opinions remain combined with other -devs who have seen his activity

< plowsof > ack jeff thanks

< r4v3r23:monero.social > i remember speaking to 0xfffc last year and encouraged them to get involved in monero-dev since we were lacking c++ devs

< selsta > i would support another 3 months

< r4v3r23:monero.social > they seem to know their shit

< jeffro256 > Vote merge on 0xfffc

< r4v3r23:monero.social > selsta and jeffros +1s are good enough for me

< plowsof > thank you for the feedback

< xFFFC0000 > It is my pleasure to work with community. Thanks all :) I will try to deliver my bestz

< plowsof > thanks for attending xFFF

< plowsof > lets jump onto:

< plowsof > c. Seraphis General Paper Review

< xFFFC0000 > ( My pleasure )

< r4v3r23:monero.social > that was postponed right?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > we can skip this

< plowsof > this proposal is to stay on the ideas page Rucknium?

< jeffro256 > I put some clarification comments on the proposal

< plowsof > thanks jeff

< jeffro256 > But in general, merge

< plowsof > we can wait for the next MRL meeting then and move on

< plowsof > d. dangerousfreedom - seraphis wallet work until regtest

< jeffro256 > merge

< rbrunner7:monero.social > Same. We still want Seraphis and Jamtis to move forward, after all.

< rucknium:monero.social > Seraphis General Paper Review: Is there a way to hide the proposal from the ideas page, but keep it open. Draft status? AFAIK, we will wait for CS progress on GBP security proofs before merging the Seraphis review.

< plowsof > DF edited his proposal description but not the merge request/file when lowering his xmr amount - so it went to funding slightly higher than intended. this was my mistake for not checking, just as it was with jeffros amount . he decided to only accept the intended lower amount when receiving his payout for the last proposal.

< ct:xmr.mx > changing the file extension should make it disappear from the website

< jeffro256 > dangerousfreedom has been learning very quickly and has been contributing more and more, doing good testing, and writing a great wallet3 CLI demo

< plowsof > the several xmr now reside in the ccs wallet currently. just informing

< r4v3r23:monero.social > good to know

< plowsof > good point ct

< rucknium:monero.social > jeffro256 and rbrunner7 : I was waiting to see your thoughts on dangerousfreedom's proposal :) The work is technical and hard for non-C++ programmers to evaluate.

_< tobtoht >__ +1 dangerousfreedom

< rbrunner7:monero.social > Should have commented on the proposal itself ...

< plowsof > looks like everything is moving smoothly with DF then :) thank you for the feedback support ACK

< plowsof > now moving on

< plowsof > e. help ofrnxmr take over the world

< plowsof > almost 60 comments last time i checked

< mrcyjanek > the hottest proposal currently

< plowsof > the latest edit

< syntheticbird:monero.social > will anyone be brave enough

< syntheticbird:monero.social > If we ignore people feelings regarding ofrnxmr. It is clear that this proposal can't pass for credibility reasons

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > I stand by my comments. It needs to follow basic CCS milestones/structured payouts. Entire sum upfront is unacceptable.

< plowsof > "100% paid to the CCS coordinator at the time of funding." (that would be myself)

< ct:xmr.mx > it 50% upfront to ofrn

< ct:xmr.mx > its 50% upfront to ofrn

< plowsof > 50% after funded

< syntheticbird:monero.social > It needs heavy modifications to be considered

< plowsof > 50% to be held

< plowsof > these are the latest modifications^

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > Agreed.

< jeffro256 > lol 50% upfront?

< ct:xmr.mx > it did get heavy modifications, did you read the updates?

< plowsof > yes, immediately after funding to clarify

< ct:xmr.mx > 50% upfront so he can reinvest into other people to help him. do you think he will run off with the money?

< plowsof > for the ofrnxmr's existence (instead of specific milestone based) seems to be in response to kayabanerves feedback

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > Also, the "I am the deliverable" thing needs clarifying - this isn't a proposal with a "physical" deliverable like code/software.

< plowsof > the supporters and detractors must review the latest changes

< detherminal > yes, what will we get with funding it

< syntheticbird:monero.social > It's not about whether we trust him or not. Some people have been rejected for more serious proposal. We can't just let this pass and say its because it is ofrnxmr. CCS shouldn't be based on trust of the author

< plowsof > oh detherminal, are you the owner of the "dethe" accounts leaving multiple down votes?

< mrcyjanek > up from me, I didn't had much interactions with him but he is always helpful, knows many people and does a lot for the community, if there are people who support him they will donate - if not it won't get funded.

< rbrunner7:monero.social > ""I am the deliverable" That's not there anymore?

< detherminal > yeah plowsof, can we talk about that in dm

< plowsof > "I am explicitly requesting donations for my existence, and not "payment" for milestones." rbrunner

< ct:xmr.mx > I have to leave on time unfortunately, thank you plowsof

< plowsof > nothing to talk about, its childish, please stop lol

< rbrunner7:monero.social > Ah, ok

< detherminal > no, it is not the way you think

< detherminal > it is bugged

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Yes, its contributions to the community throught soft skills are undeniable

< plowsof > thank you for attending ct, sorry for going over everyone

< detherminal > i have opened my first account with github and then disconnected it, now it doesnt allow me to relogin

< detherminal > if you have access to them can you please delete others except "detheforxmr"

< plowsof > ah ok detherminal thank you for clarifying i will ask

< jeffro256 > Same thing happened to me which is why my account is jeffro256_

< plowsof > there are voters who simply feel ofrnxmr is intelligible for the role for his behaviour so they wont need to review the changes

< plowsof > the initial supporters who requested changes still will need to leave an update

< plowsof > this is the first time it has been brought up , at the end of an over time meeting

< rbrunner7:monero.social > Yeah, seems to me it would be fair to take the new state of the proposal as a new "ground zero" and re-comment

< plowsof > indeed, lets move on

< plowsof > f. Droplet - A New Easy To Use Mobile Wallet

_< tobtoht >__ I want to strongly echo rbrunner's sentiment in the comments of this proposal.

_< tobtoht >__ Rewriting wallet2 (and the libraries it depends on) in dart is not realistic within the given timeframe. Off by an order of magnitude. And a substantial portion would have to be added/rewritten with seraphis / FCMPs.

_< tobtoht >__ Not to even start about the risks of reimplementing monero crypto, need for audits, transaction uniformity, supply chain risk of using random pubs, performance implications, etc..

_< tobtoht >__ My suggestion to the proposer is to put their effort towards seraphis (#no-wallet-left-behind) if they want a future devoid of wallet2's spaghetti code. Or to help another project with UI/UX.

< mrcyjanek > +1 to tobtoht_, last j0j0 comment under the proposal

< rucknium:monero.social > +1 on issues with tx uniformity.

< jeffro256 > +1 to tobthot

< plowsof > seems like theres no changing of opinion unless this proposal is closed (if you share tobtoht/rbrunners sentiment)

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > Agreed. This is why I suggested for them to team up with XMRUW and focus on UI/UX side of things.

< plowsof > so the +1s would be in favour of closing?

< jeffro256 > yep

< mrcyjanek > yep

_< tobtoht >__ yes

< mrcyjanek > my 3 days old comment got no answer

< mrcyjanek > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/445#note_23960

< r4v3r23:monero.social > same

< plowsof > thanks for hte feedback. lets move on (closing droplet)

< plowsof > g. escapethe3RA Monero Observer maintenance (2024 Q2)

< detherminal > :(

< detherminal > no problem btw

< plowsof > monero.observer

< plowsof > thanks for attending detherminal

< r4v3r23:monero.social > 3RA's always got my vote

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Hard to find critics on this one ^^

< detherminal > yeah, observer is almost perfect

< plowsof > escapethe3ra thanks for the feedback

< detherminal > it really lets you know whats going on with the community

< rucknium:monero.social > MO continues to deliver highest quality reporting.

< r4v3r23:monero.social > side note if there was some cool/easy way to integrate MO into feather that would be cool :)

< plowsof > thanks all, lets move on:

< plowsof > h. ANONERO version 1.0

< rucknium:monero.social > Is MO still integrated with Cake?

< plowsof > "IN" cakewallet? or reposted on monero dot com?

< rucknium:monero.social > Maybe it was just posted to monero dot com

< plowsof > still posting: https://monero.com/post/'Revuo%20Monero'%20weekly%20publication%20makes%20comeback%20with%20Issue%20%23192%20after%205%20month%20hiatus/

_< tobtoht >__ I think this proposal has merit on the basis that the wallet already exists, fills a niche, and r4v3r23 has shown he can deliver. No objections to the funding scheme.

< mrcyjanek > up from me to anonero, details in comments, would like better milestones..

< plowsof > to clarify, there would be 50% upfront and the rest on completion of milestone2?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > thx tobtoht

< r4v3r23:monero.social > that was my request, also open to spliting into 3 payouts with solid test build in the middle

< jeffro256 > So many wallet-related proposals... I wonder if this due to wallet2 being terrible to work with. Hopefully Seraphis and wallet3 remedy this somewhat ...

< plowsof > would monero_c be involved?

< detherminal > wallet2 is really bad imo

< r4v3r23:monero.social > it would not

< plowsof > or rather, required? (you would or wouldnt depend on monero_c)?

< plowsof > ok thanks

< r4v3r23:monero.social > thats more for cross-platform projects like cake/stack

< r4v3r23:monero.social > were gonna go full kotlin

< syntheticbird:monero.social > an active wallet ecosystem is sign of an healthy cryptocurrency

< jeffro256 > Has r4v3r23 had a CCS before? I really don't like upfront funding for labor costs

< plowsof > similar path to mollys wallet

< mrcyjanek > monerujo lib will be used as it is being used currently

< plowsof > would you be using molly monero-wallet-sdk?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > no, but ive helped work on anonero for the past 1.5 years

< plowsof > can you say yes instead?

< plowsof > the community has funded that sdk

< plowsof > would be nice to see more projects using it

< luigi1112 > jeffro256> Has r4v3r23 had a CCS before? I really don't like upfront funding for labor costs <= I agree

< plowsof > considering it has some security? benefits

< r4v3r23:monero.social > looking into it, still need to discuss feature compatibility

< mrcyjanek > +1 jeffro256

< r4v3r23:monero.social > but moving to jetpack compose gives use that option once we know that the sdk it seraphis ready

< r4v3r23:monero.social > so yes, its an option for us

< plowsof > donors put money into a monero-wallet-sdk for kotlin so... yeah

< plowsof > ok ok

< r4v3r23:monero.social > it currently doesnt have all the features we need

< r4v3r23:monero.social > but like i said, wed be able to migrate to it relatively easy once it does

< detherminal > also couldnt find the docs for mollys lib

< plowsof > valldrac could perhaps respond later^

< r4v3r23:monero.social > and about no pre CCS: we did all previous work solo and grass roots/self funded. weve proven we can deliver. i dont think a previous CCS is required to show that

< plowsof > upfront funding for a 1st ccs looks to be a no go

< r4v3r23:monero.social > its a partial upfront payout

< r4v3r23:monero.social > were not asking for 100%

< plowsof > both ofrnxmr and anonero request 50% for 1st ccs' to clarify

< r4v3r23:monero.social > compare that to other projects would feature were funded 100% years ago and never delivered

< r4v3r23:monero.social > compare that to other projects whos feature were funded 100% years ago and never delivered

< jeffro256 > I see that you are doing great work, but I'm just uneasy about upfront funding for anyone, precisely because of your stated reason

< luigi1112 > "CCS will expire one year from date of first payout and funds can be send to the General Fund." This means we would recover 50% if the venture fails for any reason

< jeffro256 > Though I understand that rewrites can take really long indefinite amounts of time, and I appreciate that you have an actual milestone for the other 50%

< r4v3r23:monero.social > like i said, its not 100% - judging us for others behaviour doesnt seem fair

< plowsof > juding on it simply being a 1st ccs*

< r4v3r23:monero.social > thats just technicality

< r4v3r23:monero.social > im not unknown

< plowsof > so then perhaps confirming to the technicality with a minor adjustment would benefit your greatly

< r4v3r23:monero.social > monero has lost larger amounts over worse ;)

< plowsof > or do we not compromise

< jeffro256 > What about a more fine-grained release schedule upfront? Say 10% upfront each month for five months, then other 50% (plus residual from first 5 months if done quickly) upon completion?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > i said im willing to compromise to a 33% up front, 33% on first stable testing build, and 33% upon completion

< syntheticbird:monero.social > any particular reason you can share on why 33% at minimum ?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > i never said minimum. what do you have in mind?

< plowsof > conforming*

< r4v3r23:monero.social > ofrn is askign for upfront

< r4v3r23:monero.social > is this his first ccs?

< luigi1112 > plowsof> or do we not compromise <= CCS = Community Compromise System

< plowsof > lol

< detherminal > lmao

< jeffro256 > yeah and he probably wont get it lol

< r4v3r23:monero.social > plowsof seemed in favor of it

< syntheticbird:monero.social > My bad, I meant why 33% and not 10% per months as proposed by jeffro

< jeffro256 > i wont vote for it and a bare minimum until its not upfront

< jeffro256 > (ofnr's)

< luigi1112 > r4 how many people are on your team?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > plowsof - comments?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > 2

< plowsof > so the current meta now is no upfront for 1st ccs' citation: monero archive

< luigi1112 > thanks

< r4v3r23:monero.social > lets be clear that applys to all ccs then?

< plowsof > yes

< plowsof > make a ccs for 1 day of work instead and come back (this is a joke) but the technicallity should not stop you from entering the ccs after adjustments

< r4v3r23:monero.social > exactly. its an arbitrary requirement

< r4v3r23:monero.social > so what do you suggest?

< plowsof > luigi1112: how many people on your team*

< luigi1112 > 2?

< luigi1112 > or was that not in response

< r4v3r23:monero.social > 2

< plowsof > oh sorry

< r4v3r23:monero.social > yes that was my response

< plowsof > would piecemeal milestones not be possible

< r4v3r23:monero.social > is any upfront payment not possible?

< luigi1112 > I'm not strictly against it but the part of playing favorites needs to be carefully considered

< plowsof > "for a 1st ccs" technicality . iirc isthmus requested 50% upfront for his last research proposal

< r4v3r23:monero.social > its just funny that this only comes up now, and not on ofrnxmrs proposal

< r4v3r23:monero.social > that one is 50/50 too

< luigi1112 > (in the vein of: new anon, no way obviously; past contributor (non CCS), what criteria for "enough")

< plowsof > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/375

< plowsof > is this a 1st ccs who requested upfront and didnt get it (al be it because they decided to close their ccs)

< luigi1112 > r4 that's only one of the concerns with ofrn proposal and maybe not even the biggest one

< r4v3r23:monero.social > surely 1.5 years of work on a project is credibility enough

< r4v3r23:monero.social > were speaking strictly about the payout now tho

< r4v3r23:monero.social > it was mentioned that he changed from 100% upfront to 50% up front and 50% later, and that was just glossed over as if it was ok

< plowsof > Total budget: 190 XMR, paid at the start of work to avoid exchange rate volatility risk.

< plowsof > i think we can put the comments to the community after the meeting is over for more feedback

< jeffro256 > @r4v3r23: I hadn't seen ofrn's proposal until just now and I brought it up

< detherminal > you are late to the party jeffro :D

< jeffro256 > fr

< r4v3r23:monero.social > im referring to the convo that was had at the start when discussing his proposal

< luigi1112 > 20/40/40 I would be ok with, or maybe some form of hours worked (1-2mo) for the first payout, with majority still being deliverables

< plowsof > the reception for ANONERO v1.0 is positive , just technicalities ^ is a sane suggestion

< r4v3r23:monero.social > 20 upfront, 40 on first working beta version, 40 on completion?

< luigi1112 > right, if those milestones are reasonable work wise

< r4v3r23:monero.social > yeah, i mentioned in ccs comments we could add a test build corresponding to v0.5 features (about half way point in development) as a midpoint milestone

< jeffro256 > I'm also fine with 20/40/40 and the proposal in general

< r4v3r23:monero.social > so 40 on delivery of that and 40 on final completion, and 20 upfront. sounds fair to me

< plowsof > 20% upfront is ok?

< r4v3r23:monero.social > sure

< luigi1112 > are you asking me or him

< luigi1112 > haha

< r4v3r23:monero.social > thx jeffro & luigi

< plowsof > luigi

< plowsof > is 20% upfront ok* or where you saying 20% after hours worked

< plowsof > or has the 20% upfront changed opinions because its less of a % than 50?

< luigi1112 > I was saying either, given there history. I'm sensitive to the slippery slope argument tho (what about ME WHY CAN'T I HAVE UPFRONT PAYMENT)

< luigi1112 > their*

< plowsof > im in free fall after the slop already

< r4v3r23:monero.social > 20% sounds fair, not enought to rug, leave 80% incentive to make sure it gets done

< plowsof > slope* erm

< plowsof > upfront for a 1st ccs is ok* amounts and previous contributions are taken into account

< jeffro256 > Due to previous work spanning 1.5 years and the fact that the proposal is multiple people, 20% upfront is okay with me

< plowsof > so the monero archiver anons 1st ccs: no previous contribs -> no upfront

< luigi1112 > well kayaba got paid 300 for first ccs on past work

< luigi1112 > unless I'm forgetting a previous one

< jeffro256 > TBF that was a case where the work was already done

< plowsof > yes retroactive ok

< jeffro256 > Not upfront payment for future work

< luigi1112 > fair

< r4v3r23:monero.social > you mean i can claim this ccs on current version hahaha

< r4v3r23:monero.social > talking about slippery slope...

< plowsof > right lets move on then, make changes and gather feedback

< plowsof > i. FCMP++ R&D

< r4v3r23:monero.social > plowsofso im changing the payout structure to 20/40/40 on the proposal yeah

< plowsof > 880 xmr is for kayaba. the rest is for a "MRL pot/fund" to complete other work. kayaba and jberman along with MRL via meetings will decide how to distribute the funds. they will remain in the ccs wallet

< plowsof > yes r4v3r

< r4v3r23:monero.social > thx all

_< tobtoht >__ Feather's alpha was funded late in development with immediate release of 50% of the funds. I do recall now that the funds were redirected from a previous unfinished CCS of the co-proposer, which changes the calculus. I think 20% upfront is fair.

< jeffro256 > I made allusions to this at the beginning of the meeting. I'm not in favor. Luke DM'ed me about it, but b/c of the Matrix problems IDK if he saw my response lol

< jeffro256 > (not in favor of 448)

< plowsof > this FCMP can be discussed at length at MRL , if anyone would like to provide some brief thoughts now. i know at least dan doesnt like the large pot combined / all in one

< plowsof > maybe if kayaba makes his own 880 xmr ccs. then another titled under "monero research lab" for the 2000~ xmr.. just a thought

< luigi1112 > yeah definitely in favor of splitting them

< plowsof > Shutting down soon unless plugged in ^ my apologies for going over. i must now dissipate

< luigi1112 > and maybe resplitting the second part

< plowsof > thank you all for attending , luigi please take the reigns

< luigi1112 > back to your regularly scheduled drama

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Is it the end ?

< syntheticbird:monero.social > we covered all ccs. alr then

< syntheticbird:monero.social > Last time I harass this channel for the day with my proposal. Opened https://github.com/monero-project/meta/pull/991

_< cx:matrix.org >__ Have you guys ever looked out your car window stared at the guy driving to get his attention then look at his wife and lick your lips

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > Apologies. I thought the meeting was tomorrow.

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > jeffro256: My hope is 1y. Seraphis was estimated ~3. You paint a picture it's much closer, which I love, but it's not one shared. Distinctly, I tried DMing you earlier. Looks like server issues prevented that :/

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > J0J0XMR: r4v3r23: My proposal includes multiple stages of audit and review.

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > Rucknium: This proposal includes a soundness proof for divisors, audits of each component, and formal verification of the gadgets :)

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > I don't have any messages here actually discussing the content of my proposal. I'll go check the logs...

< jeffro256 > thanks kayaba

< jeffro256 > i will write a better write up about this issue today because there is a ton to unpack

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > Oh. jeffro256 did reply and the server censored them 😅 Yes, I wasn't expecting your reply in favor. I was expecting to discuss it. I'll try and put up another mode of contact later today.

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > I'm fine splitting the proposal and can do so later today 👍

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > I'm trying to sign up on monero.social for DMs and am not getting the email. Have checked spam. Does it just take a while or known issue?

< plowsof:matrix.org > kayabanerve: i can ask pigeons if you exist as "unregistered" and get your account manually verified (under what username?) OR sign up with a protonmail email address. thats the only provider i know who receives getmonero emails. using other providers didnt even put me in the unverified list

< plowsof:matrix.org > im not even seeing kayabas messages . even while being on matrix dot org, the problem is getting worse. definitely time to jump ship from matrix dot org

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org: kayabanerve, gmail. I can retry with proton

< plowsof:matrix.org > ah ok, if you retry with proton, it'll be sent immediately, you can probably use the same username again

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > Solved ;)

< kayabanerve:matrix.org > Solved :)

< j0j0xmr:monero.social > plowsof: Any conclusion on CCS approvals/merges?

< plowsof > let the dust settle, changes (if any) be made and open for any other feedback. even the GBP proposal that was merged with seemingly 100% approval still had a "wait, why was that merged so soon?"

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