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Venue Speaker System? #5

Open nelsonic opened 1 year ago

nelsonic commented 1 year ago

@LuchoTurtle you just visited my desk and we discussed the idea of @mosteirodelandim/owners owning a speaker system for events (e.g: Birthday/Corporate Parties and Weddings) that could either be included in the rental "package" or as an add-on that events organisers would pay a small fee for the "PA+Music System".

You mentioned the JBL SRX series, e.g: JBL PRX915 https://www.thomann.de/intl/jbl_prx915.htm

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Believe it or not, 3.2kW (peak) or 800w (continuous) output might be "too much" for your venue/space. And, no disrespect to anyone but JBL is comparatively lower sound quality - though "bass heavy". But JBL does have 1 thing that I really like and that's the speaker synching more units. In the case of the JBL PRX915 up to 10 speakers. Whereas with other speakers cables can be required to relay signal.

Note: IMO: if you were setting up a venue to have a speaker system you would lay both power and signal cables and do it properly with wall-mounted speaker stands with water shielding, magnetically attached dust/dirt shrouds and security cables. 💭

Bose S1 Pro System: https://www.thomann.de/intl/bose_s1_pro.htm

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Or the newer Bose S1 Pro+: https://www.thomann.de/intl/bose_s1_pro_566835.htm

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Both have built-in battery with 11 hours of life, bluetooth streaming + 1-touch pairing.

In this video you can see their relative size and get a good overview including sound quality: Bose S1 Pro+ System: Wireless, Portable, Uncompromising Sound: https://youtu.be/lU6VvartAL8

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There are many other options from various brands some cheaper others more expensive. Ultimately, the best way to research this is to test with the "Party Box" speakers you already have, crank it up to 80% of the maximum output in one corner of the "claustro" and then measure the sound level (using decibel meter) and sound quality using your ears.

I'm a huge fan of distributing the sound using as a "Line Array" of identical speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_array i.e. selecting a high quality but affordable speaker that you can get 4, 8, 12, 16, etc units. At a minimum you'd need two points in front of the "stage" or dance floor. But the more you can put around the venue the "fuller" and more even the sound will be. With careful attention to "interference" and delay/echo effect.

Recommend watching: "Why Music Festivals Sound Better Than Ever": https://youtu.be/8c-gD4mwI8A

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By far the best sound quality comes from having separate subwoofers mounted lower-down. If you ever go to a concert at the Altice Forum here in Braga, you'll see they use Bose F1 speakers (lots of them!) https://www.thomann.de/intl/bose_f1_complete_bundle.htm

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By far the biggest obstacle in all this is "Tias" being on-board with offering more add-ons to events organisers. Once the "management" of the venue embraces the fact that that the events are the primary driver of profit, then it's easy to justify the investment with appropriate pay-back period. 💰 ⏳

LuchoTurtle commented 1 year ago

Thanks, @nelsonic for opening this issue and for the comprehensive guide.

I'll very much do a "brain dump" now and then address some of the concerns you've mentioned in this issue.

Why am I doing this

This idea was planted by you when you rationalized the prospects of increasing profit in Landim by bundling together "packages". And ever since, it's been growing inside my head, much like Inception. I figured that because every wedding needs music and a DJ (and also hearing about how ludicrous some of these DJ's rates are), I saw this as a great investment that could be recouped:

These years assume a 100 euro** fee (which is criminally low for the worth of the set I'm looking to build - more info in the next chapter). When compared with rental companies that employ All-in-one PA Systems like the previous one with a [fee of 210** for two of those](http://alugasom.pt/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=210), I feel like this is a no-brainer for anyone.

Of course, these could be rented out outside of Landim.

I've had the opportunity to check the PA system of last weekend's DJ they did at the big saloon and they had two of these 700$ HK Audio Polar 8:

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These are fine but very much low on the range of Decent PA Systems.

I'm wanting something longer-term, and sophisticated, that can be used comfortably up to 500 people. This will broaden the market outside of Landim and thoroughly impress viewers.

These "All-in-one" PA systems are very much the McDonalds of MI-grade, the lowest of the low when touching the "Professional Grade" speakers.

PA System Placement

This JBL guide is pretty good: https://jblpro.com/resource/configuring-and-deploying-jbl-prx800-speakers-for-medium-sized-audiences.html. Although it's for PRXs, the concepts still apply.

PA systems usually have mains, subwoofers and monitors. I feel like for Landim, we can forget about the latter, as it's relevant for live performances with bands and related.

Configuring a PA system is quite an amazing read. After scouring through a bunch of links and information on the WWW, I love these two:

These explain how placement works in various scenarios and how the sound propagates in different room typologies. To make a long story short, the best "bang for your buck" scenario that stands right at the point before diminishing returns is a system with two tops and a subwoofer (or two/dual) for Landim.

This will make us have a system that covers everything horizontally and vertically, reduce phase cancellation, reduces "dead spots" and provides an even audio experience throughout the dancefloor.

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Therefore, the minimum a sophisticated PA system may have would be two mains and one dual-subwoofer (instead of two separate singles). This would yield the best sound coverage without losing dBs for the guys at the back.

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The reason for having a single dual subwoofer in the centre instead of two separate units distributed is because the latter would create power valleys and uneven tonal balance. Check the image below.

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The build

So, here's what I'm thinking of getting:

This is the best combination I've found based on:

Note: I like the coverage summary in this link. It provided the reason why I went for 812/815 instead of 835.

SRX 812P is a 90 degree box (you don't want 2x per side) SRX 815P is a 90 degree box (you don't want 2x per side) SRX 835P is a 60 Degree box (you can put 2x per side for 120 degrees of coverage).

This will cost almost 6k euros.

All of these are active PA's, not passive. See https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=172050.0 for the reason why.

Also based from this awesome DJ that posts his experiences and has loads of gig experiences:

Responding to some of Nelson's suggestions

I'm going over some assertions that you've made and my opinions on it.

And, no disrespect to anyone but JBL is comparatively lower sound quality - though "bass heavy". But JBL does have 1 thing that I really like and that's the speaker synching more units. In the case of the JBL PRX915 up to 10 speakers.

I agree that JBL has the reputation of being "bass-heavy". But those are only in the lower-grade products, like those portable JBL speakers and Partyboxes. In professional MI-grade gear levels, they're highly regarded in their price class and are found everywhere.

I'm a huge fan of distributing the sound using as a "Line Array" of identical speakers: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_array

Me too. I had already seen the video you linked and it's fascinating seeing the progression from grid to line array in big Coachella/Glastonbury-type concerts.

I initially thought of doing something similar but it's completely overkill (the build already is a tad bit overkill for weddings of 300 people) for venues like Landim or even events in big ballrooms of 500 people. I don't think there's a need for 120 degree coverage in Landim.

If push comes to shove, I have a friend of mine that has two 200W chunky passive speakers that are not being used and I think he's open for renting as well. That would cover every nook and cranny of the room inside Landim.

But I do agree, line arrays/constant curvature arrays are the reason most festivals sound better nowadays. But the price range for those is much higher and makes sense on bigger venues.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTwg61OUvPE&ab_channel=MichaelCurtis.

If you ever go to a concert at the Altice Forum here in Braga, you'll see they use Bose F1 speakers (lots of them!)

The bundle you've linked to me is interesting. I'll do some further research and compare it with "my build" to see the cons and pros. At a glance, it seems like a plausible solution :)

By far the biggest obstacle in all this is "Tias" being on-board with offering more add-ons to events organisers.

Completely agree. I need more insights regarding demand, average cost and willingness from DJs to use our PA systems before even thinking of putting money into this.

Again, thanks for the issue and information! I'll post more findings in this thread after reviewing more options as I stumble upon them 😄

Wanna see these in action?

Found this video of x4 speakers doing an event for 3k people. 3000. That's a lot :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV2nHYwO8K4&ab_channel=DJRickWeb