[docs] Incorrect use of "Ukranian people" in message of support for Ukraine

[waugh]

The website says, "MUI stands in solidarity with the Ukrainian people against the Russian invasion." This message is incorrect because it uses an ambiguous term. "Ukrainian people" could mean all the people who live in Ukraine (including the breakaway regions) and are or used to be considered citizens, or it could just mean people of Ukrainian ethnicity. A reader might like to know whether the solidarity extended by this technically-oriented outfit extends to all the people who live there regardless of ethnicity, or just one ethnicity. The ambiguity of the message makes it incorrect and therefore erroneous, and that's why I'm reporting it as an error.

[nafg]

Why on earth would someone think such a thing?

[waugh]

On account of the demographic facts of the territory of Ukraine as it was right after the dissolution of the USSR and on account of the way that the people who live there evidently use the terms in their languages that get translated into English as "Ukrainian" (I do not speak Ukrainian nor Russian, but am going by what comes out in translation). It appears that unlike "American" for example, "Ukrainian" and "Russian" denote either ethnic groups or nationalities. There are ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians in Ukraine (and in Russia). According to some of the reporting (or propaganda), some political factions operating in Ukraine and encouraged by NGOs and US officials have been giving a slogan of "Ukraine for Ukrainians" and there were laws passed that no one can speak Russian or use it in schools and whatnot. And there seem to be reports (or propaganda) to the effect that certain armed factions have been shelling the areas inhabited by ethnic Russians for nine years. So, I would like to know, and think any reader should have it explained to her or him, given that MUI has chosen to express a political position on its website, whether MUI is in solidarity with all the people who live in Ukraine, or just the ethnic Ukrainians.

[waugh]

If you think it is not ambiguous, which do you think it means?

[cvanem]

So, I would like to know, and think any reader should have it explained to her or him, given that MUI has chosen to express a political position on its website, whether MUI is in solidarity with all the people who live in Ukraine, or just the ethnic Ukrainians.

I think the statement implies that they stand with Ukrainian people who are against the Russian invasion, whether that be ethnic or geographical related is irrelevant. You are making assumptions IMO.

[waugh]

What kind of rule of interpretation would translate "the Ukrainian people" into "Ukrainian people who are against the Russian invasion"? That seems arbitrary. Maybe when someone says "the American people", it only means "the American people who are in favor of laws prohibiting abortion" or "the American people who are in favor of torture", by the same token. What possible reasoning would lead to the interpretation you propose?

[waugh]

If that's the intent, then I propose a clarification to the wording, from "MUI stands in solidarity with the Ukrainian people against the Russian invasion." to "MUI stands in solidarity with those Ukrainian people who oppose the Russian invasion." I suppose a corporation can state a political position like that, since corporations are persons according to US case law. But those speaking for the corporation might as well make the message unambiguous so all readers will be able to get a clear understanding and it won't be misread. Anything less clear than that is erroneous.

[cvanem]

It isn't MUI's fault if people misread or interpret the message as they see fit. The statement clearly says "against the Russian invasion". They aren't trying to define the meaning of Ukrainian people. As with coding, KISS.

[mbrookes]

@waugh Thank you for your concern. Hopefully the preamble to the Ukrainian constitution clears up any misgivings you might have:

• The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, on behalf of the Ukrainian people — citizens of Ukraine of all nationalities,
• expressing the sovereign will of the people,
• based on the centuries-old history of Ukrainian state-building and on the right to self-determination realised by the Ukrainian nation, all the Ukrainian people,
• providing for the guarantee of human rights and freedoms and of the worthy conditions of human life,
• caring for the strengthening of civil harmony on Ukrainian soil,
• striving to develop and strengthen a democratic, social, law-based state,
• aware of our responsibility before God, our own conscience, past, present and future generations,
• guided by the Act of Declaration of the Independence of Ukraine of 24 August 1991, approved by the national vote of 1 December 1991,
• adopts this Constitution — the Fundamental Law of Ukraine.

https://rm.coe.int/constitution-of-ukraine/168071f58b

Emphasis mine. I thought it appropriate the keep the full sentence (with original formatting), because I think it says a lot about what Ukrainians stand for, and stand to lose.