[MU4 Issue] Muse Sounds instruments playback range is too small

[erinic04]

For the summary for developers, see #16244.

Describe the bug The Muse Sounds instruments are limited in their playback range to what is "normal" for the instrument, and won't play any sound at all outside of that range. For example, the clarinet sound's range caps out at a concert D6, when frequently music goes above this range.

To Reproduce Steps to reproduce the behavior:

1. Create a new score with any Muse Sounds instruments in it
2. Input notes outside of "normal" range (sometimes even smaller than Musescore default 'amateur' range)
3. Hear that they don't play back at all

Expected behavior The samples should play above this range, even if there aren't specific samples for it and it doesn't sound as good

Screenshots https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/21023353/197373605-25a8f2cf-f203-4158-991d-ac3166e04241.mp4

Platform information

• OS: [e.g. macOS, Windows, Linux]

Additional context Add any other context about the problem here.

[cbjeukendrup]

Perhaps we should make a list of instruments where we have seen this:

• Clarinet in Bb, stops at G6 (concert pitch)

• Violin 1 (solo), stops at B6 (also, as reported in #14080 (comment), the A6 sounds a bit flat, so sounds out of tune)

• Violin 2 (solo), stops at C7

• ...

[MarcSabatella]

Trumpet stops at C6 (concert); jazz players regularly play up to F6 and sometimes beyond.

Of course, no matter where the samples stop, it's not enough for some use case. So I agree with the OP and would totally settle for just taking what we have in terms of samples and scaling pitch as needed, to just have a quick fix across the board.

[erinic04]

I know for wind instruments at least, there is no hard limit to how high you can go, it just gets harder, so realistically, the best solution would just be to pitch the samples up.

[JesWagner]

There seems to be an upper and lower limit for the voices in Choir. Soprano F5, G3 - Alto F5, G3 - Tenor C5, G sharp 2 and Bass E4, C2. It is not uncommon to sing outside these ranges!

[erinic04]

I mean I'm sure if we really wanted, we could go through every single instrument in Muse Sounds and say how one range limit or another is bad in certain scenarios

[JesWagner]

Are you implying "we don't want"? IMHO all instruments should playback all notes within normal range. F.ex. this piece: https://musescore.com/user/181766/scores/1049986/s/R4EAYw the soprano part does not playback all notes.

[Fristover]

Just a note, Bb clarinet actually stops at D6, not G6 -Oboe stops at F6, A6 sounds reasonable -Bassoon Stops at A4, D5 sounds reasonable too (some repertoire asks for it)

[erinic04]

@JesWagner I just personally think the solution to just pitch up our current samples when needed for higher notes works really well for relatively low effort. (Up to G9 even maybe?) Then you can just do it the same for all of them and you won't ever have to issue again. Obviously it would be nice if we could get higher samples, but this works

[JesWagner]

@erinic04 - I'm sure I understand what you mean. Is this something the average MuseScore user is supposed to be able to do?

[shoogle]

@JesWagner, no, the suggestion is that this would happen automatically. Once you run out of recorded samples, MuseScore or Muse Sounds should take the existing ones and scale the pitch artificially (e.g. by playing them faster/slower, or by using a frequency shift algorithm) or it should borrow sounds from a similar instrument (e.g. use piccolo sounds for notes too high for a normal flute) so that you always hear something (even if it sounds bad/wrong) regardless of whether the pitch is within the instruments playable range.

[moving-bits]

Run into range limitation for MuseSound Choir as well today, all notes marked as red seem to be ignored on playback. Having either extended range or automatic up-/downscaling would be useful.

[bassoongb]

Just a note, Bb clarinet actually stops at D6, not G6 -Oboe stops at F6, A6 sounds reasonable -Bassoon Stops at A4, D5 sounds reasonable too (some repertoire asks for it)

Actually E5 and F5 are not entirely unusual for bassoon. Stopping at A4 is way too low, can't even play Rite of Spring!

[Vincentwang987]

Also just found out that the harpsichord doesn't play B5 and above.

[pmarx810]

Run into range limitation for MuseSound Choir as well today, all notes marked as red seem to be ignored on playback. Having either extended range or automatic up-/downscaling would be useful.

Same exact issue with me. I had a piano arrangement that I wanted to hear in Choir, but if I wanted the sound to actually play back. I would have to re-arrange every single note onto individual SATB staves. Very frustrating.

I know that MS3 had an option that was just "Voice", and would automatically switch between the different registers as the range went up or down. Implementing some automation similar to this could be lifesaving.

@Tantacrul

[MarcSabatella]

There was no automatic switching; the soundfont just has sounds that covered the entire vocal range. Most likely the higher sounds were sampled from female voices, the lower sounds from male voices, and the mid-range sounds from a mix. And yes, that could be useful someday for Muse Sounds as well. Or just "Women" and "Men", for use in closed score SATB arrangements. Right now, you have to choose between Sopranos and Altos for the top staff, and choose between Tenors and Basses for the bottom, and the sound isn't ideal at the extremes (eg, if you use tenors for bottom staff, low notes are very weak).

[pmarx810]

Ah gotcha, and yes, consolidating SA samples into a Women's option and TB samples into a Men's option would be just as good.

[SteveBlower]

It is not just the top end of the clarinet range that is missing. The bottom note on an A clarinet - written E3, Sounding Db3 is missing. Often the A clarinet is specified rather than Bb just so that note is available. Some Bb instruments have extensions fitted to allow that note to be played.

[Mick45678]

The Bb trumpet also does not play back for concert pitch F3 and below.

[ComradeDzhugashvili]

The harpsichord cannot play many of the highest or lowest notes (D6, G1, etc.) in La Marche des Scythes by Pancrace Royer despite the piece being written for harpsichord. Very jarring for no note to sound at all. Thank you for working on fixing this.

[diedeno]

Contrary to common beliefs, professional 'classical' trumpet players really can (and must) play higher than concert D. The Michael Hayden trumpet concerto goes up to concert A. (admittedly mostly played on a piccolo trumpet. But piccolo trumpets don't make you play higher, they only make it more secure)

[Doctor-Keet]

There are also issues with the English horn's upper range: it terminates at G5 (concert) but it should terminate at B5 (concert) instead, as B5 is listed as the upper limit on the professional range.

[Fifis]

I am experiencing a problem with baritones: some notes are too low for tenors, and some are too high for basses. This lack of notes outside the ranges is game-breaking. Maybe a quick fix for 4.0.1 could incorporate a quick-and-dirty pitch shift to give at least something instead of nothing outside the range?

[ComradeDzhugashvili]

I am experiencing a problem with baritones: some notes are too low for tenors, and some are too high for basses. This lack of notes outside the ranges is game-breaking. Maybe a quick fix for 4.0.1 could incorporate a quick-and-dirty pitch shift to give at least something instead of nothing outside the range?

I agree with you. I don't care how you do it, anything would be better than the sound just completely cutting out

[dcmstarships]

I wish to add to my voice to the others above requesting the MuseSounds at least provide playback for the professional range in addition to the amateur range. For years, I have been using MuseScore to transcribe music into the computer and then import the resulting Music XML file into Sibelius to get realistic playback using NotePerformer. I am very impressed with how well MuseSounds plays compare to NotePerformer and would relish being able to finally let go of Sibelius and NotePerformer. This would also provide the opportunity to finally let go of Windows and do all my music projects in Linux Mint. Any sort of fix that could be devised to address this issue would be most appreciated. In any event, kudos for a fantastic upgrade to MuseScore in the form of MuseScore 4!

[davidjjj]

The harpsichord sound is also limited in range and should be extended. G1 to F6 would be required.

[oscardssmith]

For clarinet, we should probably go up to C7 (at least). I think the highest note I've ever heard of a clarinet player playing is a G7, but C7 shows up with some frequency (e.g. Copland's clarinet concerto).

[dallashobbs]

Trumpet stops at C6 (concert); jazz players regularly play up to F6 and sometimes beyond.

Of course, no matter where the samples stop, it's not enough for some use case. So I agree with the OP and would totally settle for just taking what we have in terms of samples and scaling pitch as needed, to just have a quick fix across the board.

How do I "scale pitch as needed"? I'm currently doing a transcription and there are different places for different instruments where the high note I write does not playback.

[Fristover]

you don't, there's no way to have any playback outside of the range we have now until the team expands it or we use a vst or soundfont

[s11141827]

They make Low A Bassoons, 5 String Upright Basses, & even 108 Key Pianos. The Harmonics did allow me to get more notes on the Double Bass. I guess the packs need updates.

[s11141827]

Adding the Trumpet Mutes will help

[Music-Eating-Fox]

Just a note, Bb clarinet actually stops at D6, not G6 -Oboe stops at F6, A6 sounds reasonable -Bassoon Stops at A4, D5 sounds reasonable too (some repertoire asks for it)

Bassoon can go up to at least B♭5; that's the highest note I know how to play: https://davidawells.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Wells-Fingering-Chart-v2.1-Extreme-Range.pdf

[Music-Eating-Fox]

I've also noticed that the Harpsichord will not go below A♭1, even though according to the default range, it should be able to go that low. I also tried tuning the pitch lower, but I still cannot go below that threshold.

[s11141827]

It needs updates (same for the Crotales which have the same range as a Glockenspiel but with Circular plates).

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Burke-Maester @.***> wrote:

I've also noticed that the Harpsichord will not go below A♭1, even though according to the default range, it should be able to go that low. I also tried tuning the pitch lower, but I still cannot go below that threshold.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/13894#issuecomment-1387305447, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AUKIXMBFH7LL5SDTPDZRJDDWTAHLFANCNFSM6AAAAAARMD3WDA . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[erinic04]

Crotales don't quite have the same range as glockenspiel, just 2 octaves if you have a full set

[Music-Eating-Fox]

Ah, I see. Thanks!

[s11141827]

Crotches don't quite have the same range as glockenspiel, just 2 octaves if you have a full set Kolberg Actually makes Crotales that can play down 3 more notes to a Low A

[s11141827]

They even make 4 Octave Vibraphones that can play from C3 to C7 as well as 5 String Upright Basses.

[oktophonie]

Crotches don't quite have the same range as glockenspiel, just 2 octaves if you have a full set

I've encountered some crotches with an extraordinary range.

[erinic04]

Wow autocorrect really did a number on my comment there Crotales to crotches lol

[Music-Eating-Fox]

There seems to be an upper and lower limit for the voices in Choir. Soprano F5, G3 - Alto F5, G3 - Tenor C5, G sharp 2 and > Bass E4, C2. It is not uncommon to sing outside these ranges!

I would also like to mention the use of Vocal Fry and the Subharmonic range, making people's voices sound an octave+ lower than they truly are.

[s11141827]

Yeah we're in the golden age of writing & arranging music (especially w/ the new 108 Key Pianos):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ithskt49HA

[DaddyLudwig]

Yeah we're in the golden age of writing & arranging music (especially w/ the new 108 Key Pianos):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ithskt49HA

I've heard of extended pianos, though I don't think I've heard of a 108 key one. All the keys below A0 are black on the extended pianos I've heard of which are 97 key pianos, just with C0-Ab0 added, nothing else.

[s11141827]

Yeah we're in the golden age of writing & arranging music (especially w/ the new 108 Key Pianos):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ithskt49HA

I've heard of extended pianos, though I don't think I've heard of a 108 key one. All the keys below A0 are black on the extended pianos I've heard of which are 97 key pianos, just with C0-Ab0 added, nothing else.

I did find a 108 Key Piano

[s11141827]

It has a 9 Octave Range from C0 to B8 which matches that of an Organ

[Music-Eating-Fox]

That's a big piano! I didn't realize they made ones like that.

[s11141827]

That's a big piano! I didn't realize they made ones like that.

One good thing it does is it works around the Scaling Issue

[Music-Eating-Fox]

True!

[s11141827]

True!

They did that by extending the length of all the strings a teeny tiny bit & using Nickel Plated Steel. They also used a Special Alloy for the Highest 6 Courses of Strings called Omega 6.

[Music-Eating-Fox]

It's amazing what we can create when we put our minds to it.

[s11141827]

There's also extended range instruments