détaché on bowed string instruments

[Dima-S-Jr]

Your idea

I propose to implement the sound of this playing technique by default, since the legato currently existing in Muse Sounds is the only style that causes a lot of trouble, which I will describe below.

Problem to be solved

At the moment, in Muse Sounds, string bows sound like legato and that's all. Legato is beautiful, but not always. For the most part, only those notes that are marked at the beginning with either a verbal instruction or slurs over a group of notes that need to be performed as legato are performed in the legato style. If all this is not specified, then it is performed in the style of détaché. I'll give you a couple of examples as proof.

1. In this cue (at the end), the violins should sound like brillante. Please listen carefully to this passage and listen to the violins as they sound. And now everything is the same, only in the Muse Sounds format. Do you hear the difference? After all, this is really so! Violins in Musescore not only sound like fortissimo instead of forte (because at the moment Musescore still cannot fix the bug related to the constant volume, which is described in issue #16381, they also sound like legato Muse Sounds — legato. It sounds terrible, like in a horror movie. The violins there should sound brilliant, each note of the tuplet should be extracted by a separate movement of the bow (as a détaché). Because of this, I can't get the appropriate sound output (as in the original).
2. In the following excerpt, you can hear how the bowed strings sound in the original. Listen to this. You can hear that each note of the bowed strings is taken by a separate movement of the bow. Now listen to how it sounds in the Muse Sounds format. In this case, all the notes are performed as legato, which is very different from the original.

I believe that if the sound in the détaché style is implemented, then this will eventually allow you to get a wonderful sound, the one that is needed for many situations. And if all the notes sound legato, then it will sound ugly. Taking issue #13185 into account, I can say the following. There is a détaché instruction in the "text" palette (as well as legato). But it doesn't do any good, because there is no corresponding sound in the end. I propose to reduce to a détaché everything that is not legato. If the user wants it to sound legato, then let him add either a verbal instruction or slurs over a group of notes that he wants to sound legato-style. Everything else should sound in the style of détaché. And please don't tell me that such a technique can only be obtained if I add the articulations "bow up", "bow down", "bow up", "bow down" (etc.) to each note and then make it all invisible (optional). Imagine how long it will take, and in addition it will give an excessive articulatory "forest". And constantly giving instructions to legato and détaché is also a chore. I attached a file with two scores at the bottom. You can verify the problematic sound by opening and listening to them using Muse Sounds. legato (non detache).zip

Prior art

No response

Additional context

I would like to note that the détaché technique is clearly audible if you play notes with tremolo added through the stems. You can hear how the bow changes its movement for each subsequent note (up-down-up-down, etc.).

https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/assets/134041121/dab3c0a1-7810-499c-acba-c2ca4dcdec8b

Why does it sound like legato again without tremolo? The sound is like slob. This is strange.

[Valdessir]

Virtually all Musesounds instruments at the moment play legato as the default technique (although, certain notes in certain tempos are played detached by Musebrass unless there's a slur which is a valuable improvement). I'd like to add to this request that Musesounds ought to play detached by default and play legato only when there's a slur marking/legato text.

[Valdessir]

Relates to #14524

[Dima-S-Jr]

Virtually all Musesounds instruments at the moment play legato as the default technique (although, certain notes in certain tempos are played detached by Musebrass unless there's a slur which is a valuable improvement). I'd like to add to this request that Musesounds ought to play detached by default and play legato only when there's a slur marking/legato text.

I completely agree with you. And if there is no clarifying instruction or articulation, then it should be détaché by default. Otherwise, it turns out to be just terrible (especially in the first example that I gave in the issue). I think this should be dealt with first. For me, the articulations that are currently not working in one of my issues under the muse sounds label are not so important as the implementation of détaché. If this is fixed (preferably soon), then Muse Sounds will become a flawless sound plugin!

[heisluft]

+1 The legato makes many baroque pieces almost unbearable to listen to.

An additional suggestion although I don't know how hard it is to implement: Automatically change to legato if indicated by a slur

[Valdessir]

Legato can sound off for alot of situations it's not called to be in. I'm glad it's starting small with the Musebrass where it plays 8th notes detached on specific tempo thresholds. One can consider that the challenge in making Musesounds play detached is that it has to account for contextual tempo. There's different attacks that it has to consider when playing in certain speeds. For slow tempos, it'll play with a portato kind of attack, for medium tempos, play like detache, and on fast tempos, staccato. Playing detached and automatically adjusting its attack in relation to playback speed is gonna be challenging for Musesound's AI script. Again, we're seeing this manifest with the 8th notes of Musebrass and hopefully it'll develop more soon.

[Thiago-Morais]

There is an argument to be made that most musicians will play legato by default most of the time unless otherwise specified so it would make sense to use legato by default. There is a détaché text element that should force the détaché technique.

_However the détaché text element does not work. The playback sounds the same, so it is pretty much useless._

There is also an argument to be made so that détaché be the default since we have 3 legato methods (slurs, tenuto, and the legato text element) as opposed to détaché that we have only the text element. So having détaché as the default we would only need to specify the parts we need to be legato.

[DaddyLudwig]

There is an argument to be made that most musicians will play legato by default most of the time unless otherwise specified so it would make sense to use legato by default.

I'm certainly in that camp of legato by default as a musician, although as a pianist, legato means something different for me than for other people playing other instruments as does staccato. Legato meaning a slight millisecond overlap between the keys and staccato meaning short and detached and with rest length after the staccato determining how long the note is and not the note itself(i.e. if I press the one of the C keys on the piano for the briefest moment and then quickly press it again, it's quarter or shorter unless the tempo is really fast, and as the note values get longer and as the tempo gets slower, that gap of silence gets wider while the actual note, the attack, stays the same, whereas other instruments follow a seemingly arbitrary rule of staccato = half the notated note value)

There is also an argument to be made so that détaché be the default since we have 3 legato methods (slurs, tenuto, and the legato text element) as opposed to détaché that we have only the text element. So having détaché as the default we would only need to specify the parts we need to be legato.

This would make sense for strings, but it would make having the piano play back legato throughout unless otherwise specified a bit cumbersome. I would have to input a lot more slurs than I would actually want to see. At least, I think it would.

I don't have any opinion on which is better and I don't know if it could be set so that strings play back detache by default unless specified whereas piano would play back legato by default unless specified, I don't know.

[Dima-S-Jr]

@Thiago-Morais, @DaddyLudwig, have you even listened to the examples of legato playback in Musescore that I have given in this issue? Didn't you realize that it sounds terrible?

I don't have any opinion on which is better and I don't know if it could be set so that strings play back detache by default unless specified whereas piano would play back legato by default unless specified, I don't know.

Anything is possible nowadays. The main thing is to justify, to make arguments in favor of one or the other, so that it can be implemented. I repeat once again - legato can be useful and beautiful, BUT NOT ALWAYS! There are situations when legato spoils everything. Of course, it depends on the tempo and style of the music. And let me remind you that not everyone wants to hear a long, slured rendition of notes. And Muse Sounds should take this into account. Listen again to the examples that I gave in the issue.

This would make sense for strings, but it would make having the piano play back legato throughout unless otherwise specified a bit cumbersome. I would have to input a lot more slurs than I would actually want to see. At least, I think it would.

It's not a big deal. In many scores that I have worked with, the composer required that each group of notes to be played legato should be marked with either a slur or a verbal instruction. And we tagged each group, and yes, there were a lot of them, but what to do, it was necessary in order to clarify. And although everyone is entitled to their point of view, I still advocate that détaché be used by default. If you want legato, then specify slurs or verbal instructions (by the way, the cancellation of the legato instruction should be the instruction non legato or ord. (or norm. (in short. from normal)). As a justification for my commitment, I repeat to you for the 100th time - listen to the examples I have given in this issue. I can't definitely speak for the piano, but you have to understand that the piano and the bowed strings are completely different instruments. Although I have written quite a few arrangements and transcriptions for piano, and I can say that even the default legato for piano may sound bad. I don't want to offend anyone, but there are different styles of compositions in terms of their performance. Those who want legato will not be offended. There are verbal instructions and slurs for you. So don't be offended.

And for bowed strings, détaché is used as the default style, unless otherwise specified. I don't even need to justify it here, if you don't believe me, then Google it, read it on Wikipedia.

[Valdessir]

To my knowledge, the only instruments I know that ideally play legato by default are piano and voice. Brass, strings, and woodwinds will play with detachment if there are no slurs. Detache on the other hand has an accent to it which differentiates it from playing detached because there are no slurs on sight.

[Dima-S-Jr]

To my knowledge, the only instruments I know that ideally play legato by default are piano and voice. Brass, strings, and woodwinds will play with detachment if there are no slurs. Detache on the other hand has an accent to it which differentiates it from playing detached because there are no slurs on sight.

Nowadays, the piano in Muse Sounds sounds more like a tenuto than a legato. And how would you like to keep the tenuto or add a little staccato with a legato effect?

[Valdessir]

I don't mean Musesounds, I mean players irl. Piano players and singers have legato as the default attack.

[Dima-S-Jr]

I don't mean Musesounds, I mean players irl. Piano players and singers have legato as the default attack.

@Valdessir, I respect your opinion, but I think that such a belief depends on the tempo of the composition. If a calm, slow, drawling tempo is specified, then in this case it can still be said that irl pianists in this case will use legato by default (even if no verbal instructions or slurs are specified), but in regular tempos non legato is used by default, and legato will be used only when on this will be an appropriate indication. In some sheet music, you can even find a non legato indication, but it plays a role exclusively reminiscent (or as a change from the previously indicated opposite legato). The same goes for singing. In some tempos it is useful to sing slurred, but in others it is useful to sing so that the sounds are more precise, not lubricated, and so that less air is consumed and thus longer coloraturas can be sustained.

[sampleeditor]

Muse Strings 0.4.15 and higher has a Sound Flag for Classic Phrasing that only implements legatos with a slur. This should resolve the non-legato request.

[Dima-S-Jr]

Muse Strings 0.4.15 and higher has a Sound Flag for Classic Phrasing that only implements legatos with a slur. This should resolve the non-legato request.

Even in this scenario, the sound that should be détaché by default still turns out to be blurred, even with non-legato:

https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/bf589990-5279-4368-82e8-7df0f033f580

As I think, non-legato should have solved the issue regarding the sound of wind instruments, but on bowed string instruments it works differently, and each subsequent note should be taken by a different movement of the bow (in some sources it is called as "re-bow for repeated notes") when there are no slurs, and without changing the bow moves when there are slurs.