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Easier way to find clash/orchestral cymbals from select instrument dialog #23791

Open wizofaus opened 3 months ago

wizofaus commented 3 months ago

Your idea

It should be possible to find the instrument suitable for standard "clash cymbals" or "orchestral cymbals" by typing any of the names by which they're commonly known. Could potentially include "concert cymbals" or "crash cymbals (pair)".

Problem to be solved

I'm not sure what you're supposed to type though "hand cymbals" seems to map to the Muse Sounds "Piatti" sound which does indeed sound like clash cymbals (i.e. a pair of crash cymbals, one in each hand, struck/clashed together).
"Hand cymbals" to me suggests something much smaller and non-Western, e.g. https://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/sculptures/2-small-hand-cymbals-khartal-in-bronze-musical-instrument-miv971/?sitecurrency=USD&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwko21BhAPEiwAwfaQCM-thYenQgNHhqJa0yse8DYeVB8bjJJwxsGbbQwldT_fXcu-Ck-9LhoCGzUQAvD_BwE

Prior art

No response

Additional context

No response

Checklist

bkunda commented 3 months ago

It seems there's scope for more broadly improving search throughout the app, allowing the discovery of alternate item names. A more forgiving search query would make sense for something like this.

wizofaus commented 3 months ago

I do wonder about the use of "Hand cymbals" as the default term though - I've never heard them called that personally.

Actually I've thought before that having it play back a note for each instrument as you click on it would be pretty neat too :)

zacjansheski commented 3 months ago

Using "Hand Cymbal" is a concious choice to diffentiate the instrument from "Suspended Cymbal" or a drum kit's "Crash Cymbal"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_cymbals

Clash Cymbals - This is pretty strictly European term. More and more, percussion instrument retailers are adopting the term "Hand Cymbals" https://www.steveweissmusic.com/category/hand-cymbals

There are several "correct" names for this instrument, so this is essentially a matter of opinion.

wizofaus commented 3 months ago

"cymbal pair" would be good. I've never seen a score use "hand cymbal". But you could have en-gb use "clash cymbals" at least. Though the Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_cymbals doesn't seem to suggest the term is regional (and note it doesn't include "hand cymbals" in the main description, only as an afterthought later on).

From: Zac Jansheski @.> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2024 4:34:36 AM To: musescore/MuseScore @.> Cc: wizofaus @.>; Author @.> Subject: Re: [musescore/MuseScore] Easier way to find clash/orchestral cymbals from select instrument dialog (Issue #23791)

Using "Hand Cymbal" is a concious choice to diffentiate the instrument from "Suspended Cymbal" or a drum kit's "Crash Cymbal"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_cymbals

Clash Cymbals - This is pretty strictly European term. More and more, percussion instrument retailers are adopting the term "Hand Cymbals" https://www.steveweissmusic.com/category/hand-cymbals

There are several "correct" names for this instrument, so this is essentially a matter of opinion.

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zacjansheski commented 3 months ago

"Cymbal Pair" is not good. (Hi-hats and finger cymbals are also "cymbal pairs")

wizofaus commented 3 months ago

I was thinking "orchestral crash cymbals (pair)". The wiki talk page does seem to note that players generally don't use the term "clash cymbal".

MarcSabatella commented 3 months ago

I like use of the term “orchestral” - to me that could be sufficient even without the additional terms “crash” or “pair”. But FWIW, Paiste calls them “hand cymbals”, Zildjian calls them “orchestral” as does Meinl (they use the term “symphonic” more generically to also include suspended).

wizofaus commented 3 months ago

I agree the manufacturers seem to use that term but they're not really the typical MuseScore user!

scoreorder commented 3 months ago

I propose to use the instrument name that is common to use in orchestral scores. It is common to use the instrument name "Cymbals" in orchestral scores. It is not common to use the instrument name "Hand Cymbals" or the instrument name "Concert Cymbals" or the instrument name "Orchestral Cymbals" in orchestral scores. The major music publishers use the instrument name "Cymbals" in orchestral scores. I propose to use the instrument name "Cymbals".

See https://issuu.com/breitkopf/docs/pb_15140_issuu

wizofaus commented 3 months ago

In the concert of a score that's clearly orchestral music in the Western classical tradition that's obvious, sure. But notation software has to allow for a much broader scope.

Valebjorg commented 2 months ago

I know many scores that use "Cymbals", but not any scores that use "Hand Cymbals". A notation software should follow the common standard and use "Cymbals".

MarcSabatella commented 2 months ago

You mean, that's how you see them listed in orchestral scores. In other contexts, the term "cymbals" implies other types of instruments than ioiorchestral hand cymbals, and hence the confusion that the diualoig is attempting *unncessfully) to avoid.

But as already explained above, "Cymbals" is how they appear in your score - there is no worry about the software not following the common standard. When selecting that instrument for your orchestral scores, you get that instrument, labeled the conventional way. No problem whatsoever. The question is only about how they are listed in the dialog in a way that allows the context to be clear to all the different types of musicians out there writing music in different genres for different types of ensembles, not just for classical orchestra composers.

Valebjorg commented 2 months ago

A notation software should also work for orchestral musicians and composers.

The selection dialog should also follow the common standard and use "Cymbals". It is confusing for the user to select "Hand Cymbals" to get "Cymbals" in the score. The user should know which name to get in the score when making a selection. The name in the selection dialog and in the score should be the same. The user should select "Cymbals" to get "Cymbals" in the score.

wizofaus commented 2 months ago

It's not "also" if it ceases to work effectively for those working in other styles/genres (as I myself sometimes do). I don't see how anyone can object to "Orchestral cymbals". And it's hardly the only instrument where the name for the "Change instrument" text needs to be changed (e.g. "To Marimba (single staff)").