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Repository for the Mensural Notation Interest Group
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Add @quality to note to indicate perfection, etc. #2

Closed DILewis closed 2 years ago

DILewis commented 5 years ago

New attribute @dur.quality, applying only to notes. Values (perfecta | imperfecta | altera | maior | minor | duplex ) This should become the preferred way to perfection and alteration, with @num and @numbase only used for situations not solved by @dur.quality. An example would be imperfection by less than a third of the total value (i.e. by a remote part). duplex applies only to notes where @dur="longa"

DILewis commented 5 years ago

If we have duplex, should we have triplex as well?

martha-thomae commented 4 years ago

Do you think this attribute should be part of the gestural or the logical domain? I thought logical, but the att.duration.ratio class (that defines the @num and @numbase attributes) is member of att.note.ges.mensural. So I guess, that @dur.quality should also be gestural. Opinions @annplaksin, @DILewis, @lpugin, @giulianodibacco?

annplaksin commented 4 years ago

This is somehow a hard question for, since I am pondering about this as well. I am still not quite sure, if it is appropriate to have @num and @numbase as gestural attributes, because I used to think of gestural durations more in a way as acutual durations, not relative durations.
That is because I see the note types which are coded as @dur in a very symbolic way, since they give the information about duration only when the whole context is taken into account.

But I have no problem with being convinced that they belong to the gestural domain. Currently I am just not sure.

Anyway, I think @dur.quality should belong to the same domain as @num and @numbase. I just would like to learn more about @dur.quality because I missed this conversation and am not sure myself how to apply it. (I usually use @num and @numbase.)

DILewis commented 4 years ago

I'm not religious about this – I think the division between domains is kind of porous, but to quote some random website (the Library of Congress text on MEI came up first when I Googled):

"The logical domain includes the musical content or structure including pitches, time values, articulations, dynamics, and all other elements—defined as the symbols that communicate the composer’s intentions. The gestural domain relates to a performed interpretation of the logical domain"

In those terms, quality is unequivocally gestural, because it is a non-symbolic interpretation.

DILewis commented 4 years ago

@annplaksin I think that the key difference between @dur.quality and @num/@numbase is that the latter are indicators of duration – in the sense of "this can be sounded by counting 6 minima" – where the former indicates a process – "this breve has been imperfected [by the minim that precedes it]". I can see why they might wind up in different categories, but I don't think they're that conceptually different.

annplaksin commented 4 years ago

@DILewis I am just not quite sure about all the possible values of @dur.quality, maybe because I deal usually with not so complicated cases, just with perfections, imperfections and alterations. So I just wondered what the other values are about...

But yeah, bringing up the definition again is helpful. Now we have to decide if the application of rules of imperfection/alteration is non-symbolic interpetation or applying the rules of the notation. Because it still might be a composer's intention to write something in a certain mensuration where notes are imperfected... (I am getting crazy right now, I know)

Since the borders of the domains seem rather fluent to me, we might need to to put it where it hurts least.

DILewis commented 4 years ago

That's where the borders become permeable – I get the impression that a composer's intention that's implicit tends to be pushed to the logical domain in a lot of core notation in MEI, but I think that's because we are more ready to assume it's 'obvious' and 'part of the notation'. I guess that the test I use is 'can it be ambiguous?'. If the answer is yes, then there must be interpretation (i.e. gestural). The problem with that test is that it can be overkill. [Is this a conversation to move to Slack?]

annplaksin commented 4 years ago

Yeah, move to Slack...

giulianodibacco commented 4 years ago

Hello and I am sorry if I am late to the discussion -- which I understand has moved to Slack? Before I write here something that is no longer needed, could please anyone explain how to join it? (I don't use Slack).

martha-thomae commented 4 years ago

Hi @giulianodibacco. Yes, no problem. I will answer this and the other questions in the email you sent me (first thing tomorrow morning).