Auto set heat source based on set point/actual differential?

[dmdweiss]

I want to set the heat source so that if the temperature differential is more than one degree the heat source is gas. Otherwise the heat source is heat pump.

Is this possible through infinitude and/or the Carrier API?

I see some are using Home Assistant. I am a neophyte/Windows user. Could someone point me to an appropriate starting place?

Detailed user story: I have a geothermal system, and I want to use the heat pump to maintain the current temperature, but use gas heat for quicker heating when I want the house warmer quickly and efficiently. In my case changes in set point would occur using Infinity schedules (in the morning before I wake up and for a few hours in the evening) as well as manually from the thermostat.

[nebulous]

I think this is doable with the thermostat itself without need for Infinitude. Hold the "service" icon for 10 seconds until it flashes to see the advanced menu with temp differentials etc.

[dmdweiss]

Thanks! I will check that out. (I sometimes neglect to check the non-personal email tab for a week, and this when into that hole.)

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:39 PM nebulous notifications@github.com wrote:

I think this is doable with the thermostat itself without need for Infinitude. Hold the "service" icon for 10 seconds until it flashes to see the advanced menu with temp differentials etc.

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[swerb73]

Hi @dmdweiss, did you have any luck finding this? I went into service and have the docs up but am unable to find a place where I can tell it to use gas heat if the difference between setpoint and current temp is > X degrees?

[bdf0506]

I don’t think this is possible to adjust. I believe that the temperature differentials that @nebulous mentions is the difference between heat and cool when set to auto, not between heatpump and gas.

[dmdweiss]

@nebulous and @swerb73: I was able to get into service as well and I found settings for Set desired offset (calibrate indoor/outdoor thermometers/hygrometer) and Deadband (enforced difference between cooling set temp and heating set temp). Like swerb73 I was unable to find a place to tell the system to use gas heat if the difference between setpoint and current temp is > X degrees.

Would it theoretically be possible to use Infinitude to program a condition the way I have suggested?

[dmdweiss]

I was told by HVAC company that I need to buy and install a Honeywell control system to get the "staging" capability that would switch to/from gas heat based on the difference in between actual and set point. Could I use Infinitude or Home Assistant instead?

[lukazareba]

Probably I am not, the only one who is waiting for this solution. About a few months I'm looking for an answer and have not found. I want to control gas / hp depending on the temperature and on the electricity tariff

[nebulous]

I don't have two heat sources so I can't check this myself. If there's a means on thermostat itself to set your heat source to "only electric" or "only gas" then you can do the following to figure out what setting needs to be changed, and then write a script/ha automation to set it via Infinitude's api:

1. get a baseline /systems.xml (this should identify the current/automatic setting)
2. change to electric only
3. get another /systems.xml (this should identify the electric only setting)
4. change to gas only
5. get another /systems.xml (this should identify the gas only setting)

once you've identified the setting which needs to change we can talk about how to convince Infinitude's api to change it

[dragonflight]

I will also be doing the same thing - that is changing the heat source. I am still working on the issue of the old android app changes not sticking. In the mean time I tested it in a C app and it worked so I've been working on that... Regardless the setting you need is indeed called "heatsource" and in my system ( no gas just heat pump and electric strip heating) the three possible values are "system" (system control), "odu only" (heat pump) and "idu only" (strip heating). I assume that idu only would also include gas heating. I'm a bit surprised that "heatsource>" isn't in all configurations as my systems.xml has lots of gas stuff which is not needed.

I haven't yet really got into how you are changing stuff within infinitude (as above I got stuck on the app business) and I don't use HA, but I assume "heatsource" is no different than any other, you trigger a request for /systems/xxxxx/config with the changed element

Hope that helps more than confuses

mike

EDIT: sorry I put "<" around heatsource first time so it read really funny (and confusing!)

[lukazareba]

Bellow xml file with selected source as gas

[dmdweiss]

Thanks Mike. I am not a coder/developer, but appreciate them, and work with them daily. I am still living with manually flipping the heat source twice a day—and forgetting often such that I use gas heat much more than I would like! I continue to crave gas heat at night and electric during the day OR gas heat for recovery only based on temp adjustment. I haven’t put a price on it yet, but hmm.

On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 3:25 PM mike @.***> wrote:

I will also be doing the same thing - that is changing the heat source. I am still working on the issue of the old android app changes not sticking. In the mean time I tested it in a C app and it worked so I've been working on that... Regardless the setting you need is indeed called and in my system ( no gas just heat pump and electric strip heating) the three possible values are "system" (system control), "odu only" (heat pump) and "idu only" (strip heating). I assume that idu only would also include gas heating. I'm a bit surprised that is in all configurations as my systems.xml has lots of gas stuff which is not needed.

I haven't yet really got into how you are changing stuff within infinitude (as above I got stuck on the app buisiness) and I don't use HA, but I assume is no differrent than any other, you trigger a request for /systems/config/config with the changed element

Hope that helps more than confuses

mike

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-- Daniel Daughtry-Weiss

[nebulous]

https://github.com/nebulous/infinitude/issues/166#issuecomment-1455113071

shows how to set the heatsource via the api. You'll have to make your own logic to decide which source is best based on inside/outside temp, cost of electricity/gas etc, but hopefully that helps.

[thekev]

I used a slightly modified version of this balance point calculator to define my temperature for switching fuel source, and set it directly in the thermostat service menu. With my local power and gas rates, the economic balance point of one unit is 38ºF, the other is set to 34ºF. I used the COP numbers from the outdoor unit datasheet. I also created a table of COP from the five available temperatures to add lock-outs for inefficient stages below certain temperatures. For example, one of my units is not allowed to run stage 1 or 2 below 45ºF. (note, there are two tables: one for "comfort mode" and one for "efficiency mode" - basically, the latter runs the ecm blower at higher speed. I modeled both, and chose C mode for my system for noise reasons).

I just had a solar/battery system installed, so the logic is now much more complex. I agree this is outside the scope of Infinitude, and decision logic should be externally derived.

[dragonflight]

A note about the data sheets - they are "optimistic" especially in the 20-40 deg range because of defrost mode - may not be an issue for the 38deg unit, but 34deg unit may be an issue. I don't know about your units but mine (bryant 280anv) report the electricity usage on the ab bus register register 625 field 1 is the compressor and field 2 (16-bit) for the external fan - that may help you judge how close your use is to the tables. I didn't really check out your spreadsheet to see how sharp the crossover point is, but when it is snowing the defrost cycles get longer and hence more frequent. I have a much easier problem - heat pump or straight strip (electric resistive) heating! One would think it would be difficult to screw it up but Carrier manages to BIG time!!

EDIT: corrected the fields for register 625 On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 4:50 PM Kevin Blackham @.***> wrote:

I used a slightly modified version of this balance point calculator https://www.efficiencyvermont.com/trade-partners/heat-pump-balance-point-tool to define my temperature for switching fuel source, and set it directly in the thermostat service menu. With my local power and gas rates, the economic balance point of one unit is 38ºF, the other is set to 34ºF. I used the COP numbers from the outdoor unit datasheet. I also created a table of COP https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LWV-pAJHRM_iSvq-sWVS2ovUQvU0wERPon-J-tMdRLQ/edit?usp=sharing from the five available temperatures to add lock-outs for inefficient stages below certain temperatures. For example, one of my units is not allowed to run stage 1 or 2 below 45ºF.

I just had a solar/battery system installed, so the logic is now much more complex. I agree this is outside the scope of Infinitude, and decision logic should be externally derived.

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[philgrocks]

Hi Everyone,

Been following this discussion as I’m in process building a new house and will have Bryant Equipment

• Heat Pump 284ANV series
• Furnace 986TC series (propane)

In my quest to understand the balance point I found these tools online to put in your equipment and see the thermal balance point or the economy balance point…. Making sure you all knew of them. Sorry if it is a repeat.

One site for Bryant and one for Carrier.

http://sagoro.wrightsoft.com/Carrier/Default.aspx http://sagoro.wrightsoft.com/Bryant/Default.aspx Best

Phil

On Mar 5, 2023, at 5:01 PM, mike @.***> wrote:

A note about the data sheets - they are "optimistic" especially in the 20-40 deg range because of defrost mode - may not be an issue for the 38deg unit, but 34deg unit may be an issue. I don't know about your units but mine (bryant 280anv) report the electricity usage on the ab bus register register 625 field 1 is the compressor and field 3 (16-bit) for the external fan - that may help you judge how close your use is to the tables. I didn't really check out your spreadsheet to see how sharp the crossover point is, but when it is snowing the defrost cycles get longer and hence more frequent. I have a much easier problem - heat pump or straight strip (electric resistive) heating! One would think it would be difficult to screw it up but Carrier manages to BIG time!!

On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 4:50 PM Kevin Blackham @.***> wrote:

I used a slightly modified version of this balance point calculator https://www.efficiencyvermont.com/trade-partners/heat-pump-balance-point-tool to define my temperature for switching fuel source, and set it directly in the thermostat service menu. With my local power and gas rates, the economic balance point of one unit is 38ºF, the other is set to 34ºF. I used the COP numbers from the outdoor unit datasheet. I also created a table of COP https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LWV-pAJHRM_iSvq-sWVS2ovUQvU0wERPon-J-tMdRLQ/edit?usp=sharing from the five available temperatures to add lock-outs for inefficient stages below certain temperatures. For example, one of my units is not allowed to run stage 1 or 2 below 45ºF.

I just had a solar/battery system installed, so the logic is now much more complex. I agree this is outside the scope of Infinitude, and decision logic should be externally derived.

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[secabeen]

Wow. These are great. I've done a lot of similar work by hand, but this makes it really clear.

--Ted

On 3/5/2023 4:13 PM, philgrocks wrote:

Hi Everyone,

Been following this discussion as I’m in process building a new house and will have Bryant Equipment

• Heat Pump 284ANV series
• Furnace 986TC series (propane)

In my quest to understand the balance point I found these tools online to put in your equipment and see the thermal balance point or the economy balance point…. Making sure you all knew of them. Sorry if it is a repeat.

One site for Bryant and one for Carrier.

http://sagoro.wrightsoft.com/Carrier/Default.aspx http://sagoro.wrightsoft.com/Bryant/Default.aspx Best

Phil

On Mar 5, 2023, at 5:01 PM, mike @.***> wrote:

A note about the data sheets - they are "optimistic" especially in the 20-40 deg range because of defrost mode - may not be an issue for the 38deg unit, but 34deg unit may be an issue. I don't know about your units but mine (bryant 280anv) report the electricity usage on the ab bus register register 625 field 1 is the compressor and field 3 (16-bit) for the external fan - that may help you judge how close your use is to the tables. I didn't really check out your spreadsheet to see how sharp the crossover point is, but when it is snowing the defrost cycles get longer and hence more frequent. I have a much easier problem - heat pump or straight strip (electric resistive) heating! One would think it would be difficult to screw it up but Carrier manages to BIG time!!

On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 4:50 PM Kevin Blackham @.***> wrote:

I used a slightly modified version of this balance point calculator

https://www.efficiencyvermont.com/trade-partners/heat-pump-balance-point-tool to define my temperature for switching fuel source, and set it directly in the thermostat service menu. With my local power and gas rates, the economic balance point of one unit is 38ºF, the other is set to 34ºF. I used the COP numbers from the outdoor unit datasheet. I also created a table of COP

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LWV-pAJHRM_iSvq-sWVS2ovUQvU0wERPon-J-tMdRLQ/edit?usp=sharing from the five available temperatures to add lock-outs for inefficient stages below certain temperatures. For example, one of my units is not allowed to run stage 1 or 2 below 45ºF.

I just had a solar/battery system installed, so the logic is now much more complex. I agree this is outside the scope of Infinitude, and decision logic should be externally derived.

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[dragonflight]

Daniel,

I have set up a repository (empty) heat-pumps and a discussion Heat Pumps in my user dragonflight. I suspect you have been asking the wrong questions/getting the wrong answers. with a geothermal system you should rarely need gas at all and never gas only, but the matter would probably take a long conversation - not really suited to spamming all the watchers of this repository. mike

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