Open netherspite opened 6 years ago
Comment by Mephisto22
Sunday Jul 05, 2015 at 13:12 GMT
Felguard is doing almost the same dmg as other pets, he should be doing much more, it was reported that in T5 instances he is capable of 300-400 DPS.
In this link you can see people stating what dmg felguard does with certain amounts of spell dmg.
Link : http://www.wowhead.com/spell=30146/summon-felguard#comments:0
„With 700SP – 250-350 melee swings on cloth target“ On Corecraft my felguard does cca 170-220 melee swing on cloth targets with 800 Spell power.
Attack power that your pets get from your spell power is correct, which is 57%. The problem has to be in AP to DPS ratio or in felguards base weapon DPS. Lets find out – last post on this page:
http://wowmb.net/forums/f9/13262-felguard_how_use_what_wear/p5/
Thank god for this picture, we can gather some crucial data:
http://s23.photobucket.com/user/apep_wow/media/FG_3K_AP_052307.jpg.html
AP: 3146, as we can see it gives 224,7 DPS I did the math and on CC it would be the same number, the AP / DPS ratio is correct. This leaves us with basic weapon DPS that felguard does with 0 AP. It is too low.
From the Picture we can get the overall DPS very easily: Melee dmg is 763-819 and that is |[(819-763) / 2] + 763| /2 = 395,5 DPS (with + 20% +5% +5% modifiers from talent, soul link and MD -multiplicative stacking)
X + 0,2X = 395,5 ................ X = 329,58333333 X + 0,05X = 329,58333333 ............... X = 313,88888889 X + 0,05X = 313,88888889 .............. X = 298,94179894 (this is the DPS before talent modifiers)
This is felguard blizzlike pure weapon DPS before talents and AP contribution: 298,94179894 – 224,7 = 74,24179894 DPS
This is at lvl 70, I do not know if his weapon DPS does change with lvl. The current pure weapon damage at level 70 has 35 DPS and that makes Felguard spec completely broken. According to one wowhead post he should do 200+ hits at lvl 60 therefore I suposse that his weapon DPS does not really change with level:
on 2006/12/29 (Patch 2.0.1) "my fel guard hits for 200+ dmg per swing at lvl 60 not including any spells"
74,24179894 DPS + 224,7 DPS = 298,94179894 + 20% + 5 % + 5% = 395,5 DPS as shown in the picture. After this fix the damage should be just as described in wowhead posts.
Comment by Mephisto22
Tuesday Jul 07, 2015 at 02:08 GMT
Another tiny bug that I found: talent Unholy power that increases pet damage by +20% stacks with Soul Link (+5%) additively and not multiplicatively.
Additive stacking : X * ( 1 + 0,2 + 0,05) Multiplicative stacking : X * 1,2 * 1,05
Unholy power is a damage increase through talent and Soul Link is a damage increase through castable buff, they should not have additive stacking. This results in 2-10 damage loss per swing depending on your gear and buffs.
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/8776-a-simple-question-on-percentages-values/
Comment by ccshiro
Monday Jul 13, 2015 at 16:37 GMT
We've previously done all the calculations for scaling of hp, armor and mana. The reason they're not correct on the server seems to be a rounding error in the scaling code. I've double checked my calculations and the following is all correct (given that the rounding error gets fixed):
What isn't done:
Any input on the last three points would be nice. I wouldn't spend time running the calculations on the things that are already completed, just verify that they work next test after the rounding error has been fixed.
Comment by ccshiro
Thursday Jul 16, 2015 at 17:53 GMT
I've fixed the rounding error. The three aforementioned points still need looking at (resistance, mp5, damage).
Comment by Aasamath
Saturday Aug 22, 2015 at 03:07 GMT
I came accross this thread http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/26518-tom-chilton-pets-are-just-fine/page__st__140 It was made during 2.4.2 some guys says he has 109 spell pen, leaving a demono's spec fellhunter with 101 resist unbuff. That means 210 resist, so 140 base + 70 with "master demonologitst" On the server i have 238 resist/ 242 shadow (undead)
Next post talks about 350 resist with the warlock trinket 210+130=340 (missing 10poitnt somewhere)
An other post from same link but on page 7 "a void star talisman - this trinket increases all pet resistances by 130, with 5/5 master demonologist my felhunter has 368 all resistances unbuffed)" With the current formula on the server my pet has 368 resist/ 372 shadow with the trinket.
The last post i quoted seems to be the one that was made with the more "care" so i'd say it's more accurate on the resist value than the others. Current formula would be okay about resists then. Very little detail though, all of them talk about having same resists to all school, whatever the race. So maybe the 10 points from racial shoudln't be transfered, or maybe they don't mention it because it's just 4 points more.
Comment by Aasamath
Thursday Aug 27, 2015 at 09:39 GMT
About damage there is an incomplete list of succubus stats per level (lvl 70 are there though) on this thread. If i'm not mistaken, by looking at the "edit history" this was written in march 2008 http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Succubus_(warlock_minion)?oldid=1565074
edit: from the screen you linked i compared resistance with the same buffs on corecraft Here is a screen of my lock and pet buffed with improved drood mark and shadow resist just like on the retail screen. the 4points of racial resits are transfered too btw, so i think we're good about resists
Comment by Aasamath
Saturday Aug 29, 2015 at 02:22 GMT
Found some stats of ap and dps scaling for pet at the bottom of this page. They date of 3.3.3 though. I don't know if scaling was changed at wotlk (ratio ap/dps for felguard is the same as the tbc screenshot) http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_power_coefficient#toc
some additional info about pet attack power (stats are for lvl 60 during tbc prepatch): "At the moment all of our pets receive the same percentage bonus, and they all have the same base melee attack power (238), except for the imp who has 112 base. The imp doesn't melee at all though so at the moment the imp basically doesn't scale." http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?2054-Felguard-Video-and-Warlock-Pet-Scaling
seems after 2.0.3 felguard nerf, he still had the same attack power, must be base dps that was nerfed, or ap/dps ratio "My Felguard in 2.0.3 on live has 238 base power" website is down so here's the google page where you can read that, it's the second link https://www.google.fr/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=felguard+2.0.3
So if base ap was also the same for all pet at lvl 70 (except imp) and the succubus stats from my previous post are correct, then base ap would be 286.
Comment by Aasamath
Saturday Aug 29, 2015 at 04:44 GMT
Other lvl 60 stats at 2.0, problem is i don't know what stats and talents the warlock had (soul link or not mostly and this was the pre 2.0 soulink: 3% damage boost) other issue is that pet scaling might have been different later on (tlk and pre-tbc patch linked above say different things) Also felguard dps is wrong since this was before nerf
round 2: vw vs owl; no pet skills; 41 demonology/no hunter talents; 4805vs/3611owl HP; 5360/4255 AF; 251/359 AP; owl 0%/vw 1400HP at end of fight round 3: succ vs owl; no owl skills; 41DM/no hunter talents; succ = 2402HP/2699AF/82.5DPS/251AP = succ beat owl with 128HP left round 4: felguard vs owl; no pet skills; 41DM/no hunter talents; FG = 3432HP/3357AF/90DPS/251AP = FG beat owl with 1100HP left
http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/10062-Stats-for-level-70-felguard This confirms lvl 60 pet (imp excluded) had same ap though the number is different than above posts, might be gear
Comment by Aasamath
Saturday Aug 29, 2015 at 05:45 GMT
THIS POST SEEMS TO BE INVALID DUE TO TLK CHANGES:
i so hope stats and scaling didn't change at 3.0.2 cause dat guy might save us patch 3.0.2: Felguard: Health increased by 10% should mean he only has more sp than before because of demonic knowleged https://youtu.be/w6tZkIJqvE4?t=35 note that soul link damage boost was removed at that patch, demonic tactics should be unchanged (patchnote is 3.0.3), master demonologist and unholy power haven't changed. Demonic brutality was added but only increase frenzy % so he doesn't bother us here.
calculations from this video gave me those stats:
pet ap/14 = bonus dps pet has 240 sp it's 15% of the 1603 shadow damage
pet dps if master demonologist talent is multiplicative x+ 0.2x + 1.2x*0.05= 180.6 1.26x=180.6 x=143.3 dps untalented 143.3-83.4= 60 base dps 0 ap 143.3-62.9= 80.4 dps with 286 basic ap
pet dps if master demono is additive or x+0.2x+0.05x = 180.6 1.25x= 180.6 x=144.48 untalented 144.48 -83.4= 61.08 base dps 144.48-62.94= 81.54 dps with basic ap
slight problem the ratio pet ap/ master spell power isn't 0.57 1603x0.57=913.71 (1603+1469)/2x0.57 =875.52 (average shadow and fire damage calculation) on video pet has +881pa
Please verify my math, i used to fell asleep during class ^^
https://youtu.be/Zpx4liKIfJY?t=542 same guy but with voidwalker, calculation might prove more tricky though patch 3.0.2: Voidwalker: Health increased by 20%, Damage increased by 16%. The amount of attack power the Voidwalker gains from its master's spell damage has been increased by 45%.
EDIT: after comparing stats from tbc and early tlk for the same pet, it seems many things have changed concerning pets. I tried using changelog info to obtain tbc numbers, but it's pulling different numbers than the tbc video from below. I'll leave the post in case someone wants to make the math themselves
Only thing that is confirmed, is that base ap of lvl 70 pet is indeed 286 (tbc succubus from wiki link, felguard and voidwalker in tlk video)
Comment by Aasamath
Saturday Aug 29, 2015 at 08:03 GMT
about pet stamina and intel i found that post http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Demonic_Knowledge edit was made in january 2008 i compared the spell power gained on corecraft. Assuming cc uses the pre-2.4 formula, i did my own calculation with a 15% bonus instead of 12.
succubus: 82 retail / 82 cc fel guard: 82 retail / 82 cc imp: 96 retail / 85 cc 101.5 with rank 6 blood pact void: 71 retail / 88 cc felhunter: 133 retail / 82 cc tested with fel stamina and fel intel maxed edit: i tried on undead, forgot races have different stats...
oh an btw PRE WOTLK VIDEO WOOT! of voildwalker... could have been better, but considering he is the one that got changed the most at tlk, it gives us a baseline. https://youtu.be/hiODseoH2PM?t=28 he doesn't show pet damage and ap, but i could get one them in slowmotion.
Here are some info pulled from the tbc video, some are blank for now because i miss the data on the video (pet mana, warlock intel and stamina) im might be able to use @Mephisto22 's posts for that
Base stats of a 70 voidwalker base str: 153 base agi: 109 base spirit :122 (undead at least) base health: 869 base armor: 9070 (44.589% reduction ?) 9784 is 48.10% reduciton
scale ap: 57%master scale armor: 35% master scale stamina/hp: 13.58 scale intel/mana: 10.6 _base ap: 286 (20.4 dps) _base dps: 14.3 _base dps +ap: 34.7 base mana: unknown ?scale intel: ?scale stamina:
I'm stuggling here, i can't find a talent build that would give me base pet stamina and intel able to do the calcutation from this page: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Demonic_Knowledge so either this page is wrong or i need to determine which race he was when he reported that. ?base intel:133 (talented?) 115 (if 3/3 fel intel) ?base stamina: 308 (talented?) 267.8 (if 3/3 fel stamina)
_ratio ap/dps assumed at 1/14 like felguard, viable on voidwalker 3.0.2 video ?those one can be caculated if i can find retail base hp,mana, intel, stam of 70 undead warlock (saw a report saying corecraft race statistic boost were wrong)
intel tootip (133 +113) gives 2625 mana 6.41% crit spirit tooltip 122 spirit gives 22 heath /s 19 mp5 while not casting (might need a german to confirm the tooltip translation ^^) stamina tooltip 308+302 gives 8287
Comment by Mephisto22
Saturday Aug 29, 2015 at 17:25 GMT
That info about Demonic Knowledge numbers from wowwiki is 100% pre-nerf. I dont remember the details but I realized that 2 months ago. As for Voidwalker / Felguard stamina to HP ratio you can test it empirically. Equip an UD lock on CC so that void has 610 stamina and check for his HP. Do the same with gnome and Felguard (u might need some buffs from other players). And Felhunter - if it works now according to my first post. Then post here the results so that we can see if there are still bugs with stats.
Mana regen: last time I checked pets had like infinite mana regeneration while not casting, I guess they use masater's mp5 but I am not sure, I didnt have time for that
Damage: Well, I did the math for Felguard and I believe I am right As for Voidwalker, how did you get these base DPS numbers? I would need to see the DPS he gets from 870 AP. You can check this on CC too and see if it is correct or not.
Have fun, I deleted WoW and I am probably not going to participate in next test :)
Comment by Aasamath
Saturday Aug 29, 2015 at 18:00 GMT
Yeah, nice input. I'll go look at stats of classes an void tomorrow while server is still up. And i'll do the Demonic Knowledge calculations with other races too. About the base dps i used the 1/14 pet dps/ pet ap ratio since your gnome screenshot seems to work with it. So 870/14= 62.1 dps (i'll go verify on cc too) total dps - ap dps = 76.4 - 62.1= 14.3 base dps base pet ap is 286 giving 20.4 dps "naked dps" = base dps + ap dps = 34.7
ps: warlock has only 15 points in demology, pet dps isn't boosted at all by talents, or buffs.
As for your felguard calcuation they are just missing two parameters. First one is mutiplicative % of SL like you stated after, this seems legit. Though i also wonder if master demonologist shouldn't also be mutliplicative, since it could be considered a buff. Other problem is that pet is just coming back from melee, so he probably has stacks of Demonic Frenzy. We could assume 10, so 50% more ap considering the high base ap of the pet in comparison to the lock gear. If we can integrate that last parameter we should be pretty close, since differences from sl and demonic knowledge being additive or mutiplicative are quite small.
Comment by Mephisto22
Saturday Aug 29, 2015 at 21:28 GMT
I would have thought that Voidwalker has different AP to DPS ratio from Felguard.
Demonic Frenzy buff doesnt really matter because it increases attack power and not total damage done, he has totem buffs, pala buffs etc. , the only thing that matters is his total AP and additional DPS it provides. I used multiplicative stacking for all % damage modifiers because I dont really see a reason there should be additive stacking. According to info from elitistjerks everything is multiplicative except for damage increase that comes directly through talents.
I checked Contagion, Shadow Mastery, Imp CoA and they have additive stacking with each other. I checked Emberstorm and Improved Immolate - additive stacking as it should. Then I checked Soul Link with Master Demonologist and they had multiplicative stacking as they should. but... something seemed to be wrong, numbers were a little bit different... then I thought that maybe MD behaves as damage increase directly through talent even though it is a buff, I tested both and found out. suprisingly, that SL stacks additively with Unholy Power. And I dont see any logic behind that. Castable buffs (and debuffs) should stack multiplicatively, addons and damage spreadsheets support that as well.
I included all decimal numbers, because any rounding would mess up with my calculations, but it should be very close to the real numbers. Well, it was hard for retail players to get the real numbers, I remember Blizz stating that they compared some numbers from player theorycrafting with theirs and that they were sometimes really surprised how close they were to the real ones. 100% blizzlike is practically impossible, we can only be 99,9% blizzlike
Comment by Aasamath
Sunday Aug 30, 2015 at 07:38 GMT
Damn yeah, i dismissed the idea about frenzy earlier but couldn't figure out how i did before, so i assumed i had make a mistake. About the ratio ap i wonder that too, it is a different one at late tlk for sure, but i don't know about before. On the TLK void video, 1/14 works, so i went with it (1374 ap 98.1 dps) 3.3.3 tests on wiki talks about 1/16.28, that's considering the 16% damage increase from 3.0.2
Now for other pet i have yet to find out pictures, 3.3.3 tests show the 0.57 ratio spell power to pet dps is still ok but ap/dps ratio are diffferent, and i don't know if it was already like that at tbc. Or what is could do is take the ratios listed for 3.3 and revert them using the patchnotes that were applied in beetween.
Comment by Aasamath
Sunday Aug 30, 2015 at 11:54 GMT
Alright, here's the cc/retail comparison. First screenshot concerns Gnome Felguard hp pool
INTELLECT COMPARISON
STAMINA COMPARISON
I'll continue to investigate this a bit more, like doing the comparison of voidwalker from the tbc video in previous posts, but it seems numbers are very close, so i'll go back to DPS and then mana regen afterward.
EDIT: just did the hp comparison from voidwalker with 610 stamina on pet 9156 hp on retail screen, same on Corecraft ;) so ratio is good
Comment by Aasamath
Monday Aug 31, 2015 at 19:05 GMT
I found this spreadsheet but i'm struggling a bit to decipher the infos on the file, maybe someone who's more used to it than me should take a look at it too. http://www.leulier.fr/spreadsheet/ here's a topic where he answers questions too http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/10050-another-dps-spreadsheet/
edit: there definetly seems to be some valuable infos regarding dps and stats on that one. edit 2: well here we go ratio pet/master for stamina, intel, (pet spell/ master spell) and (pet ap/master spell) are ok on cc.
base stam: 114 (most likely wrong) (257.2 from wowiki if reporter's toon was untalented) base intel: 133 base ap: 286 base mana: 1109 ratio intel/mana: 10.6
ratio pet ap/damage input: 7/1 (ap/dps: 14/1) base damage 0 ap: 105 base dps 0 ap: 52.5
lash of pain (maxrank): 103 + petdamage*0.429
base stam: 114 base int: 327 base mana: 849 ratio int/ mana: 4.7
firebolt base damage: 119.5 firebolt scale: 119.5 + petspellbonus*0.45
base stam: 322 base int: 152 base ap: 286 base mana: 849 ratio int/mana: 4.7
ratio pet ap/damage input: 7/1 (ap/dps: 14/1) base damage 0 ap: 206 base dps 0 ap: 103 v1.11 of the spread: "FG dps is not correct yet", i dunno if it was fixed at v1.20, using the spreadsheet to reproduce the situation from the gnome screenshot of Mephisto (removing alll other values of the spreadsheet like hit/crit/ glancing blow etc), i came up with 433 dps instead of 395.5 so base stats might be like @Mephisto22 said since they get the right value (verified with spreadsheet). base damage 0 ap: 148.5 base dps 0ap: 74.25
cleave (max rank): petdamage 0 ap + petap/7+ 78
base health: 869 base armor: 9070 scale stamina/hp: 13.58 scale intel/mana: 10.6
base ap: 286 (20.4 dps) base damage 0 ap: 28.6 base dps 0 ap: 14.3 assuming 1/14 ratio which works for 2 other pets, and is often said to be valid for all pet before tlk, except imp. 3.3.3 ratio on wiki is 16.28, after a 16% damage increase in 3.0.2 (14*1.16= 16.24)
edit 4: some guy in comment says succubus stamina is incorrect. Also felguard damage on the spreadsheet are similar to that post: "Base Stats of the FG (I included the base stats of the owner slightly which buffs int somewhat: 350 Stamina (322 without base stats) 195 int (152 without base stats) Base AP 286 He has a damage range of 178-234, all pets have a 2.0 melee swing speed." *103 dps seems to be with base ap, so would mean 82.6 with 0 ap, still not the same as Mephisto :s
Comment by netherspite
Saturday Sep 05, 2015 at 21:16 GMT
Sorry for posting just some observations without any proofs or new research results but I just tested low level warlock leveling and it feels really weird.
I'm not sure whether it's about regeneration or stat scaling but I had issues with my pets. Imp was regenerating his mana so slow that I had to let him to rest on 1 of 2-4 mobs because he was oom. Voidwalker was regenerating his health so slow that I had to constantly bandage him (every time the debuff faded) and it was not enough to keep him alive - I had to resummon him a couple of times after he got killed by the mobs. I'm sure I never had to bandage my pet on retail.
I tried to find videos of warlock low level leveling at Vanilla or tBC times but didn't succeed.
Comment by Mephisto22
Friday Nov 06, 2015 at 20:16 GMT
The amount of text/info in this thread seems to be overwhelming, various issues were addressed so here is a summary of remaining bugs that need to be fixed:
pet scaling of mp5 is too high (they probably use caster's mp5 - I'll verify later)
Felguard base dps (0 AP) is too low
It should be: 74,25 - according to the screenshot (see 2nd post) OR 82,6 - according to a guy who made a spreadsheet (see 16th post)
The only logical explanation so far is that blizz slightly stealth-buffed Felguard's dps later in BC after 2.0.3 overnerf. Or the guy from elitistsjerks made a mistake.
Dmg bonus from Soul Link and Unholy Power talent stack additively - they should stack multiplicatively
Issue by Mephisto22
Sunday Jul 05, 2015 at 05:42 GMT
Originally opened as https://github.com/ccshiro/cc-buglist/issues/847
Every single private server has to find their way around pet scaling. At first I thought that the goal of having them completely blizzlike may be impossible. But then I did deep research.
I have tested following rules which should apply to each pet:
So far all numbers were correct. However, the tricky part is that all the pets actually scale differently. They dont scale like players – 1 stamina equals 10 hp. They have different scaling factors, thats why voidwalker gets more hp from stamina, they are balanced around those factors which are, unfortunately, secret to us and most private servers usually just try to make up their own scaling factors and base statistics of the pets.
I focused on fellhunter which is the most important pet for PvP. In these videos you can see hp and mana of a fellhunter and also warlocks stamina and intellect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDGtKZ-xRuo 0:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmVkJTmKiFE 0:26
I compared those numbers to corecraft. I had the same spec, almost the same amount of stamina and intellect (+/- 1) and the numbers were different: First example: My felhunter had 5845 hp instead of 6127 as shown in the first video.
I found out that corecraft uses these scaling factors: 9 HP per 1 point of stamina and 11 mana per 1 point of intellect for fellhunter. They are obviously wrong.
Following calculations are done with all talent modifiers: Pet stamina with naked warlock = 353 and that is 3595 hp on corecraft 353 * 9 = 3177 hp from stamina. Therefore 3595 – 3177 = 418 (probably HP fellhunter has with 0 stamina ?? ) Naked lvl70 UD warlock 88 stamina – (88 0,3) \ 1,15 = 30,36 stamina for pet =´273,24 hp Pet basic stamina = 322,64 = 2903,76 hp 2903,76 + 418 = 3321,76 HP which pet has on his own Warlock with 813 stamina – pet gains 2250 HP from his gear on CC 3321,76 + 2250 + 273,24 = 5845 total HP
So now I have to find basic HP of fellhunter which he theoretically has without warlock and correct scaling factor of his stamina so that it would match data from both retail server videos. According to the first video he should have 6127 HP with warlocks 813 stamina. And from second video he should have 4702 HP while warlock has just 377 stamina.
Simple linear equations: [(813 * 0,3) * 1,15] x = 6127 – y [(377 * 0,3) * 1,15] x = 4702 – y To make it shorter, X = 9,4734742721 – this is the stamina factor scaling Y = 3469,8325688 this is HP without warlock – so it is more than on corecraft Pet gains a little bit more HP from warlocks gear
Fellhunter would have on retail in S4 gear around 400 hp more than on CC...... So to sum up, completely Blizzlike Fellhunter HP scaling mechanic before warlock stamina and talents would be as follows:
BASIC STAMINA without any contribution of warlock stats (even naked warlock stats) should stay the same as it is so that this change doesnt mess up with Demonic Knowledge talent: 280,1261052606596 stamina BASIC HEALTH of fellhunter with 0 stamina: 418 SCALING FACTOR OF STAMINA: 9,4734742721 HP per 1 point of stamina
I did exactly the same for Mana and the results are: BASIC INTELLECT before warlock and talents: 131 intellect BASIC MANA: 905 SCALING FACTOR OF INTELLECT: 11,506368028 mana per 1 intellect point
Now lets check it out with talent modifiers and compare it with video:
For HP: 418 + [(280,1261052606596 * 1,15) * 9,4734742721] + [(813 * 0,3 * 1,15) * 9,4734742721] = 6127,000000009969
418 + [(280,1261052606596 * 1,15) * 9,4734742721] + [(377 * 0,3 * 1,15) * 9,4734742721] = 4702,000000000687
For Mana: 905 + [(131 * 1,15) * 11,506368028] + [(375 * 0,3 * 1,15) * 11,506368028] = 4127,0707070407 as it can be seen in the first video
I could do the same thing for other pets but I need videos with alike information and that would be much harder to find. Also Felguard is horribly bugged, his dmg is way too low, I will have a look at him and post into this topic asap.