Upgrading 2 flak 38 in beta

[LaughtersGrave]

Transport options can't be bought... But another weird issue comes from upgrading the gun.

I've found that upgrading to either of the 8.8cm renders you unable to attack units.

If you upgrade to the SdKfz 6/2 your unit is placed on the map with no fuel or ammo

As an unrelated minor issue some times where the ammo count for the unit is has a weird line of code instead. You can see it in one of the screen shots. It still has the ammo count in the line of code so it is barely as issue at all.

The 2 flak38 can still attack as normal if you don't upgrade it

[salexgit]

Hi

Once you have a deployed unit, you can either move/attack or upgrade/supply ammo. Once you decided to upgrade/supply, you cannot attack and vice versa. As far as I know this is not a bug, but rather a game rule.

There is only one way to circumvent this limitation: you can upgrade the unit before you deploy it, and then upgraded unit can move/attack. This trick of course works only for the core units.

[LaughtersGrave]

No no I have upgraded the flak38 before placing on the map. That's what I'm saying

[LaughtersGrave]

@salexgit So it's been a while now, I was wondering if there's any news or proposal for inclusion of flak units and the ability to downgrade units for a small return of prestige...

I mean I'm on Karkov now and still have that crappy little 2cm flak 38 in it's donkey cart

[salexgit]

Hi

Yeah, I understand your frustration about useless Flak in a crappy donkey cart. To be honest, the main developer Nicu has not been responding to my emails regarding what and when we fix, so maybe you can try to wake him up somehow :)

As a temporary solution to your problem, you can upload your saved game here and I can change the unit to the desired type.

[LaughtersGrave]

Thank you I'll do that tonight before I go to bed :) so when I get up i have a good unit at last

[LaughtersGrave]

I thought long and hard about this. But since there are only 4 Air Defense units that can attack ground units it makes my choice limited. So, unlike normal where is say something powerful like the 12.8 what I'd like is the 2 CM Flakvierling 38 in a H830B transport please and thank you muchly

(Campaign) Operation Zitadelle Turn 1 Sun Nov 18 2018 03_51_49.zip

[salexgit]

Hi

Which units (type or location) should I turn into 2 CM Flakvierling 38?

[LaughtersGrave]

The only 2 flak 38 I have. Don't worry about it now though I'll upload a different save tonight.

[salexgit]

Hi

Here is the saved game in which I changed 2 Flak 38 transport type into HBO. (Campaign) Operation Zitadelle Turn 1 Sun Nov 18 2018 03_51_49.zip

[LaughtersGrave]

Remind me what flak units/AA units there are that are not available for purchase under Normal circumstances.

Flakvierling is one, 2 CM flak 38 is another, What are the others?

[LaughtersGrave]

@salexgit sorry forgot to tag before

[salexgit]

Hi

Here are the units which are modelled as "flak" class (and thus cannot be purchased):

• 2 Flak 38
• 2 Flakvierling 38
• 2 Flak 38 LKW
• 3.7 Flak 36 LKW

Two last units are vehicle mounted flaks, so as for me they are pure anti-air units and should be modelled accordingly.

[LaughtersGrave]

Vehicle mounted AA would definitely be used against ground targets too, for example the whirbelwind. In fact I'm truth, unusually, the VAST MAJORITY of German AA was designed, exactly, with duel purpose in mind.

The mounts were nearly always designed to be used against ground and air.

I would propose that AA/AD all be able to shoot at ground units. Simply that some are good at it and others not so much. Truth is Germans built their guns that way.

British... Well not as much, and some of their big guns were only ever emplacement and could never move, unlike Germans which could move, even if slowly.

French not really at all.

[LaughtersGrave]

Hey, I was on a different map when I got your response about upgrading my 2 Flak38. So I couldn't use that save. Could you upgrade my 2 flak 38 to be in the H830B then upgrade it to a flack Veirling please (the one you normally can't get... Yet) thanks muchly.

(Campaign) The Fourth Battle of Kharkov Turn 1 Wed Nov 28 2018 00_13_12.zip

[LaughtersGrave]

Whoops, sorry about that

[LaughtersGrave]

@salexgit please see post 3rd from bottom, just incase you missed it due to me pressing the wrong button

[salexgit]

Hi

Can you provide some additional historical information that Flakpanzers were used against ground targets? I saw a lot of articles and photos showing how towed Flak guns are used against ground targets, but I have not seen any good historical evidence that Flakpanzers were used in a same way. In fact, I doubt that it could be used as an efficient anti-ground weapon. For the sake of maintaining a good balance and trade-off between different units, maybe we should allow all the towed Flaks to attack ground units, whereas mounted Flaks should be pure anti-air units.

P.S.: I will try to hack your saved game and will turn your unit into Flackvierling.

[salexgit]

Hi

Here is a saved game in which I changed the unit to Flackvierling.

(Campaign) The Fourth Battle of Kharkov Turn 1 Wed Nov 28 2018 00_13_12.zip

[LaughtersGrave]

Thank you.

Sure I can, I've complied some screen shots.

You can see her the gun was DESIGNED with an anti tank round and explosive flak rounds would be like an armour piercing hand grenade, and several hundred grenade like rounds a minute will really fuck up your day.

The 8.8 is pretty well documented already, ironically though the flak18 is op vs ground units on openpanzer as it was using a mechanism that was poor vs ground units.

Here you can clearly see the wirblewind was designed with ground depression mountings for its guns, it is using a Flakvierling, which fires 1800 rounds a minute, if you know a 50cal firing 600 rpm will mess up infantry badly, you know for a fact that 1800 exploding flak rounds, from a 20mm will be orders of magnitude more effective, capable of engaging most targets even capable against light tanks as is very well documented during WWII and the Spanish civil war. So having four of these on a tank just means it's even more effective against all targets.

Here you can see the ostwind is likewise designed with ground depression mountings, a 3.7cm gun firing 3 round a second with massive 1.4 pound explosive shell would tear infantry to shreds. And light tanks too.

Here is the flakenpanzer 38(t) looks like it can only aim up right?...

Wrong, as you can see the side armour folds. Definitely not as effective as a wirblewind or ostwind but still a 3.7cm will fuck up your day.

So now some quotes

So mounted our not you can see AA guns in informal German doctrine and in design, we're dual purpose... And this is NOT limited to their AA guns.

The 10.5 LeFH 18 is a dual purpose artillery and anti tank gun too. It had a purpose built 8.8 sabot round built for it

And this dual purpose idea is common in most navies of the time.

What's more Czech artillery (which was often taken and used by Germany) was developed with a dual purpose too, this time artillery and anti aircraft.

So you can see a theme, dual purpose is not unusual or exclusive to Germany, and it's certainly not something that was exclusive to their towed units or even anti aircraft.

As always with these things getting transcription is harder than pictures. But the point is made, as evidenced by their very designs, these flakenpanzer would be more effective than a several machine gun teams being essentially a tank with an enormously over sized auto cannon/machine cannon or even several of them, mounted on them. They'd be devastating against most ground targets up to medium and heavy tanks.

[LaughtersGrave]

Oh and I don't mean to be ungrateful, but I was hoping to have my Flakvierling in a H830B, it's not as effective as a half track I know... But for my game my army rides in style ;) I'll upload the save Game tonight before I sleep, same unit again.

[salexgit]

Hi

Well, I am not sure that H830B can transport Flakvierling ;) By the way, I noticed that OpenPanzer has a bug that allows you to buy a unit with a certain transport option, e.g. H803B, and then upgrade the unit keeping that transport options. I realized it noticing to have my heavy artillery units transported by Opel Blitz trucks :) I will report it in a separate thread as this is clearly a bug.

I will check your sources for the Flak units. I also read a lot of articles about some Flak units used against ground targets, but I was not entirely sure whether all the Flak units were really used for that purpose even if they could. For instance, SdKfz 10/4 with mounted Flak can be in principle used against ground targets but I doubt it was due to a high profile and lack of armour. My fundamental point is that if we allow all the German Flak units to attack ground targets, it might become be too powerful in the game. That is the reason why I thought that some mounted Flaks can be restricted to anti-air role. Well, just my thoughts...

Regards, Alex

[LaughtersGrave]

All my heavy guns but 3 are in the 12t halftrack. To be fair in the war there were many many occasions where "inferior" transports were actually pulling heavy guns, they did it, just not well. Famously goerings ss plundered civilian cars to pull his guns and guys. I'm not so sure that's a bug for that reason.

Flak units were always used, by the army, against ground targets, lufwaffe refused to do so and did so in roughly equal measure. But source wise these books were written by THE experts of the last century, Peter Chamberlain and Terry Gander.

The army didn't have equipment to waste and flaks were therfore designed to be used against ground and air, at least to defend itself. Anti air guns have extremely high velocity and often were used as anti tank guns, 8.8 being a famous example.

All anti air guns that could depress to ground level could engage grind targets and those fixed into half tracks more so, you have to remember most of those half tracks weigh several tonnes and some had outriggers, they would be exceptionally powerful anti infantry guns as very little cover could protect infantry from them. They are not elegant but they are designed to do it, even if they look ungainly.

I don't think, in light of the tiger one, tiger two, panzer grenadiers that they would be too powerful, most do not have very good numbers. They're all rounders and that's the point but artillery is better, and so are true tanks. They're a support unit and they do that well.

[nicupavel]

@LaughtersGrave Great info, delightful read, could you name the book that you used ? And as @salexgit mentioned Flak units were restricted to air only in PG2 because they were powerful enough to deal with all kind of targets but I must compare with other PG2 equipments to check the air/flak units for countries.

I'm not sure if I understand the bug with transport but it was designed to keep the transport when you update the unit, and update the transport later on.

[salexgit]

Hi Nicu

Regarding transport units upon upgrade, I am not sure whether it is a bug or feature, but as you said the game engine keeps current transport unit. As for me it is wrong because you can exploit in the following way:

• buy a light artillery with e.g. fast Opel Blitz transport
• upgrade later this artillery to heavy one, whereupon the fast Opel Blitz transport would be kept, while it is not designed to transport heavy artillery units

My view is that the transport unit can be kept only if the target unit also supports it, otherwise the game engine should force you to choose a different transport unit.

Regards, Alex

[LaughtersGrave]

World war two fact files series, there are Sevral books. Most relevant are anti aircraft guns, light and medium artillery guns, anti tank guns and self propelled anti tank and anti aircraft guns.

I'd argue that AA would not be over powered and here is my reasoning, look at their numbers as shown, in game. They can do a bit of everything but they're not specialised in anything.

This is my Flakvierling:

This is the value on a 8.8

Now compare them to even my recon unit values, soft attack is higher on my recon

And what about more dedicated artillery... Well the numbers speak for themselves, way longer range, way better soft comparable hard (which I find is never actually reflected in game, artillery always seems to only do 1 damage to tanks, always)

What about something a bit more serious? A tiger

Tiger 2

The point here is that they're All better than the even the pinnacle of German AA, the 8.8 flak36

It would not at all be over powered for them to be able to shoot at ground targets.

In light of the transport thing I would say that in reality Germans made do very frequently with inadequate transport, if we're going to insist on only the purpose designed transports being used then you should also be saying that most of the German stuff, even though other options existed, should be horse drawn as the vast majority of it was in reality. I don't think you gain anything by changing it from what it is.

Aannnnddddddd on that note I come back to the save Game (Campaign) The Fourth Battle of Kharkov Turn 5 Thu Nov 29 2018 06_46_40.zip Please put the 2cm Flakvierling 38 in a H830B please and thank you, the car was perfectly capable of towing it as it weighted less than a ton and a half.

I hope I didn't miss anything I apologise if I did I was woken up and its 7am and I need to go back to sleep. Night night

[salexgit]

Hi

Regarding Flakvierling, what I found is that it was transported by Opel Blitz, SdKfz 251, and towing trucks such as SdKfz 7 and SdKfz 11. At the end its weight is 1.5 tons so I am not sure whether a light vehicle could cope with it.

Regarding transports in general, nobody argues against the fact that Germans had to use sometimes "inadequate" solutions for towing guns, e.g. horses. However, it is already reflected in OpenPanzer by allowing horses for light guns. Heavy howitzers were still transported by the dedicated towing trucks, such as 18t SdKfz Famo monster.

Regards, Alex

[LaughtersGrave]

Dude the 8 man crew would weigh almost one and a half tonnes and a stretch limo like the H830B would be able to carry considerably more, plus it's TOWING not self propelled, which is easier again.

And honestly no, a lot of German stuff what was supposed to have dedicated transports, simply didn't. They improvised and there are numerous examples, particularly from Russia, of men pulling an 8.8 because the transport wasn't there, or got bombed before it arrived, there are examples of them using captured Russian gaz light cars, there are examples of donkies pulling 8.8

As with everything German there is a perception of them being ultra modern and having all the bells and whistles... They simply didn't in real life.

[salexgit]

Hi again

Can you send me a link to the technical specification of H830B? I have my personal hesitancy that it was used for transporting anything heavier than several guys. That is why at least Opel Blitz was used for Flakvierling because you need to tow Flak, its crew, ammunition etc. H830B was apparently used only for light troops such as Polizei.

And back to transports, I am still not getting your point. Those units than can be towed by men are modelled accordingly and they can move by e.g. 1 hex without any transport. Heavy howitzers and mortars can be transported only by dedicated transports; and if you do not have the one, men or horses will not help. Please do not forget either that we are talking about the game in which only one transport unit can be assigned to a particular unit. We do not model either a situation when your transport gets bombed and you resort for donkeys :))